US and Isreal - Why?

[pjdude1219]

You couldn't open the links? You should get a new browser. There's lots of other resources on dhimmitude, of course.

So your evidence of jewish persecution is a system where they were afforded MORE rights than others? I think your either being dishonest or don't understand what the definition of persecution is. not to mention we have been over your love of using anachronistic standards to try and prove your point.



also not a single part mention palestine. what a surprise your trying to lump all muslims into one group to slur one specific group.

 

[pjdude1219]

With regards to global fears about Muslim population growth and resentment towards the west, I think that in itself garners support towards Israel as a line in the sand against Islamic expansionism and explains why there's little appetite to sell Israel out in the hopes of appeasing its enemies. Just like the US won't abandon Taiwan to Chinese fascists even though it would improve the relationship in the short term (and stoke China's appetite for imperialism in the long term).

first that ignores the fact in why the US first started supporting Israel. Jewish votes. secondly the 2 scenarios aren't really the same. Israel's enemies are americas enemies because we support Israel while china has other reasons for being opposed to the US than Taiwan. also Israel was created by foreign conquest while the china Taiwan was that the very successful rebel group (PRC) doesn't like the continuation of the group it rebelled against (ROC). those have very different factors that apply. you could argue with reasonable strength, though I know you won't admit this, that Israel is usurping the legitimate sovereignty of the region while in the chinese debacle it is the PRC that usurped the sovereignty.

 

[GeoffP]

Projection and protestation

So your evidence of jewish persecution is a system where they were afforded MORE rights than others?

Oh. So dhimmitude is a system that affords Jewish people more rights than others. More rights than their neighbours of the religious majority. What a curious system.

I think your either being dishonest or don't understand what the definition of persecution is. not to mention we have been over your love of using anachronistic standards to try and prove your point.

This comment raises several points - first, that you seem to think that a system that makes second class citizens of Jews is actually for their promotion, which makes me wonder widely about your honesty or comprehension. We could spend a few more posts breaking it down into one of those two but I'm just going to write it off as kneejerk projection, because that's what it is.

also not a single part mention palestine. what a surprise your trying to lump all muslims into one group to slur one specific group.

Oh? This section also raises several questions. One: how could I possibly slur all Muslims (capitals, please) by citing a philosophy clearly designed to give Jewish people special rights above and beyond those of Muslim citizens? (That was sarcasm, BTW. See your argument above.) Second: so Jewish people in Palestine were specifically not under such restrictions? They weren't shoved back onto tiny enclaves? If you have some proof that they were exempted from such racist laws, I'd love to see it. You could also discuss this:

During Muhammad Ali of Egypt's occupation in 1834, Jews were targeted in pogroms in Hebron, Safed and Jerusalem. In 1844, Jews constituted the largest population group in Jerusalem and by 1890 an absolute majority in the city, but as a whole the Jewish population made up far less than 10% of the region.[118][119]

118 "How to Respond to Common Misstatements About Israel". Anti-Defamation League. 2006. Retrieved 4 October 2006.
119 "The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948". MidEastWeb.org. 2005. Retrieved 4 October 2006.

And third: your accusation strikes me as another attempt to dodge an issue you consider too damaging to your viewpoint - whatever that can be - by burying it in argument terminators. No thanks, not buying. It's amusing that this is the only form of religious law defended by self-proclaimed liberals and libertarians.

Anyway, like I said, projection.

 

[GeoffP]

Found some other horrifying tales on the intertube highway.

In 1491 a Bohemian pilgrim wrote of Jerusalem:

There are not many Christians but there are many Jews, and these the Moslems persecute in various ways. Christians and Jews go about in Jerusalem in clothes considered fit only for wandering beggars.

The Moslems know that the Jews think and even say that this is the Holy Land which has been promised to them and that those Jews who dwell there are regarded as holy by Jews elsewhere, because, in spite of all the troubles and sorrows inflicted on them by the Moslems, they refuse to leave the Land.[16]

The humiliation was a given; the degree of harshness of injunctions against Jews depended on the whim of the ruler, local as well as the lord of the empire. Among the constants of dhimma restrictions in the Holy Land:

Jews had to pass Muslims on their left side, because that was the side of Satan. They had to yield the right of way, step off the pavement to let the Arab go by, above all make sure not to touch him in passing, because this could provoke a violent response. In the same way, anything that. reminded the Muslim of the presence of alternative religions, any demonstration of alternative forms of worship, had to be avoided so synagogues were placed in humble, hidden places, and the sounds of Jewish prayer carefully muted.[19]

When the Turks conquered the land in 1516, "Not only were governors at all times vexatious in their demands, but the Muslims were often hostile to their Jewish neighbors."

The gentleness of 'Omar was the mantle that hid the Arab-Jewish relations for three centuries, the early Othman [Turkish] hospitality obscured the actualities of Jewish life in the Near East. . . .[20]

Apparently these are from "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters (1984). It's WND, but the stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

[GeoffP]

Actually, on a related topic, when did it become unfashionable to want to throw down theocracy anyway?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/29/us-turkey-march-idUSBRE89S0R620121029

 

[CptBork]

first that ignores the fact in why the US first started supporting Israel. Jewish votes.

Ok, if you say so... And I guess all the other major UN powers including the USSR supported its declaration of independence for the same reason?

secondly the 2 scenarios aren't really the same. Israel's enemies are americas enemies because we support Israel while china has other reasons for being opposed to the US than Taiwan.

And it has nothing to do with US and British interference with attempts at self-government throughout the Arabian peninsula, supporting pro-western dictators and systematically exploiting their oil reserves? The Saudi royal family was installed well before Israel was even a country. As long as you're dependent on selling weapons to dictators who sell you cheap oil in return, the locals are going to consider you their enemy. That tiny patch of desert on the Mediterranean coast has nothing to do with countries like Iran and Pakistan having a crappy quality of life; you ascribe far too much power to the Jews.

also Israel was created by foreign conquest while the china Taiwan was that the very successful rebel group (PRC) doesn't like the continuation of the group it rebelled against (ROC).

Yes I can just see it now, one second it's peace and quiet, next second you've got Jews storming the beaches like it was DDay, and declaring their own country a week later. Maybe you and Mel Gibson can make a "historically accurate" movie about it.

you could argue with reasonable strength, though I know you won't admit this, that Israel is usurping the legitimate sovereignty of the region while in the chinese debacle it is the PRC that usurped the sovereignty.

Outside Gaza and the West Bank they're not usurping a damn thing. They're not in Iraq, they're not in Afghanistan, they're not the ones making Syrians and Lebanese fight amongst themselves. They didn't lift a finger to stop the Muslim Brotherhood from assuming power in Egypt. Your definition of "legitimate sovereignty" is tainted by personal animosity, because you blame the Jews for turning Poland into the land of the po' and preventing it from attaining its rightful destiny as a globe-trotting empire.

 

[pjdude1219]

Ok, if you say so... And I guess all the other major UN powers including the USSR supported its declaration of independence for the same reason?

irrelevant to the thread but hey no sweat off my nose.

And it has nothing to do with US and British interference with attempts at self-government throughout the Arabian peninsula, supporting pro-western dictators and systematically exploiting their oil reserves? The Saudi royal family was installed well before Israel was even a country. As long as you're dependent on selling weapons to dictators who sell you cheap oil in return, the locals are going to consider you their enemy.

which the support of Israel plays into. hell the palestinians were pro western until you know we decided the zionist conquest was kosher for us. I'm not saying there weren't other factors but our support for Israel ranks up there in why the US is disliked.

That tiny patch of desert on the Mediterranean coast has nothing to do with countries like Iran and Pakistan having a crappy quality of life; you ascribe far too much power to the Jews.

No I don't you just like tarring me as anti semitic and refuse to admit anything negative could happen because of jewish actions.

Yes I can just see it now, one second it's peace and quiet, next second you've got Jews storming the beaches like it was DDay, and declaring their own country a week later. Maybe you and Mel Gibson can make a "historically accurate" movie about it.

please quit accusing me of anti semitism simply because I'm willing to call Israel out on its crimes. and considering YOUR the own who has repeated nazi propaganda you and mel have a lot more in common than me and him.

Outside Gaza and the West Bank they're not usurping a damn thing.

SO there was never a palestinian presence out side of gaza and the west bank. sorry but they conquered palestine just because your ok with it doesn't mean they didn't take land that as a signatory to the UN mandate system the s\western powers already aknowledged the right of sovereignty to the palestinians.

They're not in Iraq,

only cause the US and UK prevented it they wanted in on both gulf wars

they're not in Afghanistan,

true but irrelevant

they're not the ones making Syrians and Lebanese fight amongst themselves.

they are involved in stiring the pot.

They didn't lift a finger to stop the Muslim Brotherhood from assuming power in Egypt.

why would they it benefits them.

Your definition of "legitimate sovereignty" is tainted by personal animosity, because you blame the Jews for turning Poland into the land of the po' and preventing it from attaining its rightful destiny as a globe-trotting empire.

no personal animosity just not ignorant of the fact that the jews haven't always been as perfectly innocent as they like to make themselves out to be. also please don't lie about my beliefs. I have never blamed the jews for polands fall to the USSR if you repeat such lies I will report for slander. I know who I blame and its those responsible not those who sought to gain from it.

 

[pjdude1219]

Found some other horrifying tales on the intertube highway.








Apparently these are from "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters (1984). It's WND, but the stopped clock is right twice a day.

you do that book has been debunked by multiple historians from a various schools of thought, including an Israeli historian who referred to it as a "sheer forgery", right?

 

[GeoffP]

"Debunked" is an overly confident term for your point here, PJ, and I think you select that term knowingly, which is disappointing. I hope this is not so.

The book is certainly in debate, but what I see is that it's conclusions are in debate, and that some of it has been selectively picked. That does not mean that the citations therein are false; moreover, it does not mean that the citations therein lead one to an erroneous conclusion about historical discrimination against Jews in Palestine.

Nor have you responded to post #63 at all; to which I add, this, incidentally:

...the Jews of the place, who were exceedingly wealthy, had lived peaceably in their retirement until the insurrection which took place in 1834, but about the beginning of that year a highly religious Mussulman called Mohammed Damoor went forth into the market-place, crying with a loud voice, and prophesying that on the fifteenth of the following June the true Believers would rise up in just wrath against the Jews, and despoil them of their gold and their silver and their jewels...When that day dawned the whole Mussulman population of the place assembled in the streets that they might see the result of the prophecy. Suddenly Mohammed Damoor rushed furious into the crowd, and the fierce shout of the prophet soon ensured the fulfilment of his prophecy. Some of the Jews fled and some remained, but they who fled and they who remained, alike, and unresistingly, left their property to the hands of the spoilers. The most odious of all outrages, that of searching the women for the base purpose of discovering such things as gold and silver concealed about their persons, was perpetrated without shame. The poor Jews were so stricken with terror, that they submitted to their fate even where resistance would have been easy...When the insurrection was put down some of the Mussulmans (most probably those who had got no spoil wherewith they might buy immunity) were punished, but the greater part of them escaped. None of the booty was restored, and the pecuniary redress which the Pasha had undertaken to enforce for them had been hitherto so carefully delayed, that the hope of ever obtaining it had grown very faint.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/kinglake/alexander_william/eothen/chapter26.html

Kingslake refers to the Safed pogrom. Several other massacres and pogroms occurred there. From the Wiki:

Throughout their history, the Jews of Safed had been the target of violent outbreaks, notably in 1660 and 1628.[11] The upheavals which followed the 1831 annexation of Southern Syria to Egypt by Muhammad Ali threatened the security of the Jews of Palestine. In 1833, at the approach of Ibrahim Pasha, the Jewish quarter of Safed was plundered by the Druses, although the inhabitants managed to escape to the suburbs.[12]

I await your rebuttal of my rebuttal. Did you still wish to take up the fraudulent digression about some imagined general accusation against all Muslims, or whatever it was?

 

[mr.spock2]

If it was up to the Russians we wouldnt need no "Iron Dome".
But our economy would probably be screwed up even more then it is.

 

[CptBork]

If it was up to the Russians we wouldnt need no "Iron Dome".
But our economy would probably be screwed up even more then it is.

Right, because if it was up to the Russians you would have been sold to the highest bidder 20 years ago. They'd be only too happy give ultranationalist Arab states the propaganda victory they're so butthurt about not winning after 67 years, in exchange for lucrative oil rights. Every major politician in the US wants to see a two state solution, including Mitt Romney, so maybe you can tell me what you would do to force Israel out of the West Bank if you were president, because it seems from my POV that Obama is doing the bare minimum, and you guys would simply laugh off anything less.

 

[StrawDog]

Oh, not so silly. Hell's Angels was a bit of a stretch. You could have picked white and black people, for instance.

Silly.

It certainly cannot change the fundamental injustice of those future crimes that the writing on the wall is meant to warn us of. I'm glad you support such proaction... in selected cases, anyway.

If I am understanding you correctly, your stance is rather sinister. There is absolutely no way to justify persecuting, murdering and imprisoning a people, including woman and children, to prevent future "crimes". Note: 1. That is exactly what Hitler did. 2. The atrocious genocide against Jews that may lead to your "writing on the wall" was committed by Europeans, not Muslims.

Hmm. In order to prevent it, one occupies other minority groups? Get them before they get us, is that right? Such prescience is remarkable. One would almost think it promotes such conclusions rather than predicts them.

What?

 

[GeoffP]

Silly.

So don't be. Pick a less pejorative example next time.

If I am understanding you correctly, your stance is rather sinister. There is absolutely no way to justify persecuting, murdering and imprisoning a people, including woman and children, to prevent future "crimes". Note: 1. That is exactly what Hitler did. 2. The atrocious genocide against Jews that may lead to your "writing on the wall" was committed by Europeans, not Muslims.

Hitler? I don't recall mentioning him. You mentioned "increasing tensions" between Arabs and Jews, but the repression of Jewish people in Palestine goes back much, much further than 1916. You followed that up with the comment that the 'locals' (which I must presume do not include Jews) 'saw the writing on the wall'.

If you are talking historically, there was no systematic persecution pre Jewish influx - tensions rose thereafter and to this day. The locals could see the writing on the wall and clearly their fears have come to pass.

As for genocide, there's as much reason to point fingers at the East as at Europe: Jewish culture in the ME has been under a pressure cooker for a thousand years. I hope you're not saying that that history was excused by the prescience of ME leaders regarding the eventual creation of Israel. That seems pretty sinister to me, too; and it does seem like you're alluding to it. Not pretty. I don't know if anyone's mentioned this to you, but that was exactly what Hitler did.

 

[GeoffP]

If I am understanding you correctly, your stance is rather sinister. There is absolutely no way to justify persecuting, murdering and imprisoning a people, including woman and children, to prevent future "crimes". Note: 1. That is exactly what Hitler did. 2. The atrocious genocide against Jews that may lead to your "writing on the wall" was committed by Europeans, not Muslims.

Just to follow up, and more frankly: it is sinister of you to intimate that the repression of Jews in the ME was somehow done in a sense of foresight about the outcome of the clash between Jews and Arabs. You only found the concept sinister in the reverse.

 

[StrawDog]

Just to follow up, and more frankly: it is sinister of you to intimate that the repression of Jews in the ME was somehow done in a sense of foresight about the outcome of the clash between Jews and Arabs. You only found the concept sinister in the reverse.

Nope that was not my intended intimation, pardon for the misunderstanding - I think my grasp of English is even more limited than my grasp of ضحية.

 

[GeoffP]

My apologies then.

 

[Stryder]

Admittedly I'm not posting in this thread to join a debate or attack anyone's view, in fact I just thought I would add a picture of some Palestinians that happened to be Protesting in New Orleans on Saturday. It's a good action shot, it caught their protest quite well.

A personal perspective about the whole Israel/Palestine perspective would be to actually look how it all came about. First off you have a religion declaring rights over a territory by "God", I could never agree with that since my personal opinion is religion is a monumental waste no matter what flag it bears or what one it burns. Then of course you have the "Hitler" factor causing a community of religious zealots to become even more xenophobic than they ever were, however I can't complain about people keeping themselves to themselves. No the real problem was actually the Cold War that raged after Hitler's removal, that's when territories were forged and borders were slapped up, cutting land up into countries (potentially unfairly to the people that lived there, since the land dispersal wasn't likely fair from their perspective.)

Most of the problems that have existed since that day have come from that Cold War, after all there would never have been an Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan. In essence, I can respect peaceful protests, but Wars (justified or unjustified alike) are doomed to repeat the same mistakes, carving territories, turning people on each other and for whom, the controlling autocratic minority, those that are generally unfit to make decisions for people enmass (no matter colour or creed).

image as attachment: View attachment 6012

 

[786]

Israel is our greatest ally because they conduct the most espionage operations within the United States. We love them for that.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

They were such great allies that they hid information they had about pre-9/11. We love them for that as well.

BTW I have no interest in joining the debate, I'm just making rounds and then leaving again (I returned to this forum by chance).. And when I know spidergoat is still around making stupid comments like

"Muslims have a culture that considers Islam to be the supreme and final religion of the world, and any land that is forcibly or otherwise converted to Islam must remain that way until the end of time. Israel basically said fuck that and pissed them off."

I know I shouldn't talk. By the way I wonder why Muslims aren't all over the place sending mortars into Spain, cuz obviously Spidergoat is so smart (Mr. I don't buy that )

 

[youreyes]

Why does the US support the Israel so very much?

Because people of Israel control part of US government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_politicians


11 Jewish senators, 26 Jewish representatives currently in US government. 11 seats for the cause of Israel out of 100 is power to control when it comes to the issues concerning Israel.