The Wisconsin Issue

[joepistole]

Give it a rest joe, they had been debating this legislation for over 3 friggin weeks.
The fact that they separated the legislation into a two pieces doesn't change the fact that the part they passed had in fact been available for debate for WEEKS and they broke no laws by passing this legislation when and how they did.

Arthur

Ah, who has been debating? The original piece of legislation was submitted on Friday and expected to be passed on Monday (rubber stamped). There was no debate of the original legislation in the Senate, much less three weeks in the Senate. When it became apparent what Republicans/Tea Partiers were doing Democrats left the state. There was no debate.

The legislation has been discussed in public for weeks but it has not been debated in the Senate. And then you have Republicans crafting a new piece of legislation to ban public service union and violating their own state law in the process. This Republican/Tea Party mob controlling Wisconsin these days has no respect for the rule of law or democracy.

 

[cosmictraveler]

If they can't work with the unions and just try to shove them aside, that's a very bad precedent to be setting for it is almost dictatorial in its meaning.

 

[adoucette]

Ah, who has been debating? The original piece of legislation was submitted on Friday and expected to be passed on Monday (rubber stamped). There was no debate of the original legislation in the Senate, much less three weeks in the Senate. When it became apparent what Republicans/Tea Partiers were doing Democrats left the state. There was no debate.

The legislation has been discussed in public for weeks but it has not been debated in the Senate. And then you have Republicans crafting a new piece of legislation to ban public service union and violating their own state law in the process. This Republican/Tea Party mob controlling Wisconsin these days has no respect for the rule of law or democracy.

Your point is that this legislation was passed without time for review.
That's patently false.
The fact that the Dems fled the state to prevent a vote doesn't mean they didn't read the legislation, indeed that's WHY they fled the state, because they knew it would pass otherwise.

But it was debated even so, although not in the normal manner because the Dems made the normal manner impossible.

But it's clear that they were discussing this otherswise we would not read things like:

Mary Bell, the president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, says: "Money issues are off the table. Public employees have agreed to Gov. Walker's pension and health care concessions

And no, they are not a mob, they are the electred representatives of the state of Wisconsin and the people knew who they were electing.

And no, they have violated no state laws with this legislation.

Arthur

 

[joepistole]

Your point is that this legislation was passed without time for review.
That's patently false.

What is false Arthur is you claim. Republicans drafted up a new piece of legislation and didn't obey the Wisconsin Open meetings law. That is very clear to any unbiased observer.

The fact that the Dems fled the state to prevent a vote doesn't mean they didn't read the legislation, indeed that's WHY they fled the state, because they knew it would pass otherwise.

Democrats were out of state when the Senate Republicans drafted this new piece of legislation. If they had followed state law, the Democrats would have had time to return to the state to vote on the law. But the Republican/Tea Party mob now in control of Wisconsin state government has tossed out the law in order to do whatever they want to do.

But it was debated even so, although not in the normal manner because the Dems made the normal manner impossible.

But it's clear that they were discussing this otherswise we would not read things like:

And no, they are not a mob, they are the electred representatives of the state of Wisconsin and the people knew who they were electing.

And no, they have violated no state laws with this legislation.

Arthur

You are changing the subject Arthur. The issue is the Wisconsin Open Meeting Law. It doesn't say anything about debating. It says adequate notice must be given. It wasn't.

 

[iceaura]

And no, they are not a mob, they are the electred representatives of the state of Wisconsin and the people knew who they were electing.

Did they?

Seriously: how many times now have we seen people (especially rightwing religious Americans) claim to be surprised by the behavior of the representatives they voted for? We have no evidence that the people who voted for that Wisconsin governor expected or favored this kind of union busting.

 

[adoucette]

What is false Arthur is you claim. Republicans drafted up a new piece of legislation and didn't obey the Wisconsin Open meetings law. That is very clear to any unbiased observer.

Nope

The Senate's chief clerk said hours later the meeting was properly held.

Arthur

 

[Stoniphi]

Probably not when you figure in benefits.

Yeah, the engineer would have much better benefits. This is fact, I know quite a few engineers, including the guy who lives across the street from me and my FIL. For both money and benefits engineering wins hands down.

That seems to be part of the problem, the benefit packages for state workers are generally very high.

So this bill was going to not cut pay, but make the state workers pay a bit more for their benefits, but not out of line with private workers.

The bill would: require state employees to contribute 5.8 percent of their pay to their pensions and require state employees to pay at least 12.6 percent of health care premiums (most pay about 6 percent now).

Almost all private workers I know in this pay range pay at least 6% of their salary to their 401K, but that still amounts to less of a retirement plan than the state employee pension plan is, and I pay 15% of my health care premiums and my plan comes with a large deductable, so again I don't see how this is unreasonable.

Arthur

The state employees all agreed to that stuff Arthur, it was killing the unions that they balked at. That is also the only part that the Republicants passed, which showed the lie for what it was.

Symmetry won out in this space - time though, and a balance will be made. There will be a "cost" commensurate with the "profit" the Right has "gained" by this action. Just because something is "conservative" does NOT mean that it is "right"...or even ethical.

 

[adoucette]

The state employees all agreed to that stuff Arthur, it was killing the unions that they balked at. That is also the only part that the Republicants passed, which showed the lie for what it was.

Not true, they couldn't do that side without the Dems back in session, so they did what they could.

And what they did, didn't kill the Unions.

Arthur

 

[spidergoat]

Snot Walker will prove to be one of the greatest union organizers in recent history.

 

[quinnsong]

Snot Walker will prove to be one of the greatest union organizers in recent history.

I hope so, dear spider, I really hope your right!

 

[joepistole]

Have you seen the new ad Rove is running across the nation attacking President Obama, Democrats and unions? Koch brother money and the money of their coherts are going to be flooding the airwaves with money from now until the 2012 elections are over going after the zombie vote.

 

[quinnsong]

Have you seen the new ad Rove is running across the nation attacking President Obama, Democrats and unions? Koch brother money and the money of their coherts are going to be flooding the airwaves with money from now until the 2012 elections are over going after the zombie vote.

No,do you have link?

 

[joepistole]

Sure, the ad is at the bottom of the article.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/03/right-leaning_think_tank_says.html

 

[chimpkin]

Koch brother money and the money of their coherts are going to be flooding the airwaves with money from now until the 2012 elections are over going after the zombie vote.

But zombies want GORE! GORE! and they will always vote for candidates with the most BRAAAAINS!

(Sorry, just couldn't help myself...moving right along now...)

 

[joepistole]

Wisconsin judge stops the law dead in its tracks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011...L020110318?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

 

[chimpkin]

Wisconsin judge stops the law dead in its tracks.

No, it will probably not be overturned. We'll see, but I wouldn't be too hopeful.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Wisconsin judge stops the law dead in its tracks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011...L020110318?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

Typical liberal Judge, over reaching Her jurisdiction.

 

[pjdude1219]

Typical liberal Judge, over reaching Her jurisdiction.

so you mean he is doing his job. it a judges jon to if a law is of questionable legality or constitutionality to prohibit it. people like you call liberal judges fairly interperting the law and doing their jobs activist while applouding conservative judges that add rights that don't exist as protecting the constitution. one of these days your going to need to grow up and realize every good thing that you take for granted that allows you to live the life you do happened because liberals fought for it.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

so you mean he is doing his job. it a judges jon to if a law is of questionable legality or constitutionality to prohibit it. people like you call liberal judges fairly interperting the law and doing their jobs activist while applouding conservative judges that add rights that don't exist as protecting the constitution. one of these days your going to need to grow up and realize every good thing that you take for granted that allows you to live the life you do happened because liberals fought for it.

pj, no She isn't doing Her job, at least get the basic facts right before you run off at the mouth.

Under the law, the Legislature is presumed to have acted legally, and unless it can be shown that the act was actually illegal, and constitutes a act that will cause irreparable harm, it goes into effect as passed.

Separation of Powers, pj, separation of powers, the Legislature under the Constitution of Wisconsin has sole power to legislate, and cannot delegate that power to any other Branch of the State Government.

Seem the Democrat minority, who lost the last election, and ran away from their sworn duties, and responsibilities to their electorate, now wish to delegate legislative power to selected judges to over turn the actions of the assembly, the Budget Repair Bill passed both Houses of the Legislature, and by sizable margins.

One other little point, the Democrats votes were counted, they were allowed to vote in the Senate, and they still lost, so again where is the jurisdiction of this District Circuit Judge to legislate from the bench on a legally passed law.?

Fact pj, not supposition from you, verifiable facts, based in Constitution and Law, not your fevered fantasies.

one of these days your going to need to grow up and realize every good thing that you take for granted that allows you to live the life you do happened because liberals fought for it.

Actually pj, when you move out of mommy's house and support your self by your own industries, pay your own bills, come back a tell me about growing up.

 

[joepistole]

pj, no She isn't doing Her job, at least get the basic facts right before you run off at the mouth.

Yes let's get our facts straight! You have made a claim that she is not doing her job, a claim for which you have not proven.

Under the law, the Legislature is presumed to have acted legally, and unless it can be shown that the act was actually illegal, and constitutes a act that will cause irreparable harm, it goes into effect as passed.

The Wisconsin senate has been accused of violating the state meeting law which was intended to make state government open to its citizens. From reading the law, it appears to be pretty clear that the Wisconsin senate did not give the required 24 hour notice. Hell they didn't even give 2 hours notice. So if the Democrats wanted to attend, there is no way they could have attended the session.

Separation of Powers, pj, separation of powers, the Legislature under the Constitution of Wisconsin has sole power to legislate, and cannot delegate that power to any other Branch of the State Government.

Yes the legistature has the power to legislate. But it does not have the right to violate the law or the constitution of Wisconsin or the nation. Making that determination is the roll of the judicary mr. roam - one of those minor details again.

Seem the Democrat minority, who lost the last election, and ran away from their sworn duties, and responsibilities to their electorate, now wish to delegate legislative power to selected judges to over turn the actions of the assembly, the Budget Repair Bill passed both Houses of the Legislature, and by sizable margins.

This is absolute right wing fantasy material mr. roam. Why were you not complaining about Republicans when they blocked majority votes in the US Senate via the filibuster? What the Democrats are doing in Wisconsin is the same thing. They are preventing a majority vote in the Wisconsin senate the only way that is available to them. It is at the very least hypocritical to complain about what the Wisconsin Democrats are doing and exempt US Senate Republicans from their behavior these last two years...again one of thoses minor details mr. roam.

One other little point, the Democrats votes were counted, they were allowed to vote in the Senate, and they still lost, so again where is the jurisdiction of this District Circuit Judge to legislate from the bench on a legally passed law.?

Where have you been mr. roam? Are you playing dumb? The Wisconsin senate is accused of violating state law - you know one of those minor details you would rather not face.

Fact pj, not supposition from you, verifiable facts, based in Constitution and Law, not your fevered fantasies.

Actually pj, when you move out of mommy's house and support your self by your own industries, pay your own bills, come back a tell me about growing up.

That is just silly.