I don't see collective bargaining rights in that list. Now the state employees and their unions had agreed to "C" so I really don't see how collective bargaining rights comes into this.
The Wisconsin Issue
- Thread starter Giambattista
- Start date
I don't see collective bargaining rights in that list. Now the state employees and their unions had agreed to "C" so I really don't see how collective bargaining rights comes into this.
Neither do I and that's what I was wondering about. It is very disturbing to see what is going on since they were accepting a reduction in their pay and retirement pans. The only thing that could be the problem is that they set a time limit on their "give back" plans so that this same issue will only keep coming to a head every 6 months or year or whatever time frame they agreed to. That shouldn't be a big problem because whenever that agreement is at an end they just see what can be done in the future with their pursuits of higher and higher wages.
this isn't about cutting spending. its about an attack on unions to eliminate funding to democrats so the right wing can push their harmful stupid agenda unopposed.
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
A better tomorrow for their corporate sponsors, determined to make us all poorly educated wage slaves (except for their own children, who will become an elite ruling class).
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41996994/ns/politics-more_politics/
It appears Walker's going to get his way. Joy.
It appears Walker's going to get his way. Joy.
There is a 24 hour notice requirement per Wisconsin law. It is hypocritical of Republicans/Tea Partiers to insist Democrats post bills for a review period. And then Republicans/Tea Partiers fail to do same. It clearly demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of Republicans/Tea Partiers.
Give it a rest joe, they had been debating this legislation for over 3 friggin weeks.
The fact that they separated the legislation into a two pieces doesn't change the fact that the part they passed had in fact been available for debate for WEEKS and they broke no laws by passing this legislation when and how they did.
Arthur
The fact that they separated the legislation into a two pieces doesn't change the fact that the part they passed had in fact been available for debate for WEEKS and they broke no laws by passing this legislation when and how they did.
Arthur
Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
Have you looked at the wage scale for state employees?
On average they in wage and benefits they earn twice what the private sector employee makes, so who is making the Tax Payer a;
Yes, where does the U.S. Rank in the World Scholastically?
Yes, and who is responsible? The public school educators......
http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm
In the world the U.s. ranks;
Math
Grade 4----United State 545
Grade 8----United States 500
Grade 12---United States 461
Science
Grade 4----United States 565
Grade 8----United States 534
Grade 12---United States 480
Grade 12 Top Students
United States 442
Advanced Science
United States 423
Home Schooled and Parochial Schooled students consistently out perform public school students across the board.
Some more education on the subject for you Spider;
http://reason.org/news/printer/losing-the-brains-race
Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
Oh, joe? About your Hero Obama? what about the fact that under Obama?;
Federal workers don't have collective bargaining for wages and benefits.
Federal workers don't have collective bargaining for wages and benefits.
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
Study: Over 16-year span, Wisconsin teacher salaries lag private sector wages
the average private sector college graduate saw weekly earnings increase by 10 percent from 1995 to 2009. By contrast, the average teacher in Wisconsin saw salary decline by 10 percent, not counting fringe benefits.
"Not only did Wisconsin teachers not keep up with inflation, their earning power also fell behind their private-sector counterparts," Olson said.
In 1995, the average college educated private sector worker in the U.S. earned 17 percent more than a Wisconsin teacher; in 2009, this gap had increased to 36 percent, according to Olson's research.
Maybe all the best teachers got fed up with the poor pay. Maybe this is a deliberate attempt to force people into a private school, where more profit can be made. It's not enough that people have to endure college loans, but corporate America wants everyone to have student loans dating from elementary school.
the average private sector college graduate saw weekly earnings increase by 10 percent from 1995 to 2009. By contrast, the average teacher in Wisconsin saw salary decline by 10 percent, not counting fringe benefits.
"Not only did Wisconsin teachers not keep up with inflation, their earning power also fell behind their private-sector counterparts," Olson said.
In 1995, the average college educated private sector worker in the U.S. earned 17 percent more than a Wisconsin teacher; in 2009, this gap had increased to 36 percent, according to Olson's research.
Maybe all the best teachers got fed up with the poor pay. Maybe this is a deliberate attempt to force people into a private school, where more profit can be made. It's not enough that people have to endure college loans, but corporate America wants everyone to have student loans dating from elementary school.
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You are throwing up chaff again Arthur. Republicans/Tea Partiers violated the Wisconsin meeting notice law. They did not give the required 24 hour notice.
And you defense as it was with thomas is that well the Republicans/Tea Partiers control the oversight agencies and they are not going to prosecute another Republican/Tea Partier. That is not much of a defense Arthur.
Who said President Obama was my hero mr. roam?
Additionally, what has Obama done to attack unions? He has done nothing to attack unions.
You are not making sense mr. roam.
Except this can be caused just by teachers in the high end of the pay scale retiring because of the liberal retirement benefits available, that too would make the average pay go down, but that doesn't mean that the pay of a specific person went down.
They also left out fringe benefits, without seeing the value of those you can't make a comparison either.
Finally, the rust belt states aren't doing as well as other parts of the country and so it doesn't surprise me that salaries are not keeping up with the rest of the country.
A much better analysis would be to compare public with private with the same type degrees in Wisconsin, not ther rest of the country.
Without a LOT more analysis this data is meaningless.
Arthur
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Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
We are not talking about private sector workers across the nation, and studies that are over a decade old, we are talking about the gap in Wisconsin.
Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year
[Milwaukee, Wisconsin] MacIver News Service – For the first time in history, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public School system will exceed $100,000.
That staggering figure was revealed last night at a meeting of the MPS School Board.
The average salary for an MPS teacher is $56,500. When fringe benefits are factored in, the annual compensation will be $100,005 in 2011.
http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-teacher-compensation-tops-100kyear/
•The average Wisconsin teacher salary in 2009-2010 was $52,644
(That doesn't include benifits)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm
In Wisconsin the public sector employees average $50,744 while the private sector averages $48,924 now that is a average, in reality;
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
Are you talking about private sector workers in general? Or just private sector teachers. Because comparing them to burger flippers is apples to oranges.
I have an 18 year old son in his first year of university. He was going to be a professional teacher for all of the right reasons until the last couple of years events. Now, he is going to do something else instead for his life career.
He told me that the uncertainty, the union busting and contractual take backs, class sizes touted to go to 65 children per teacher here and the decreasing salaries are all factors in his decision to pass on teaching. Wisconsin was the convincer that his choice is the right one.
This reminds me of the Great Depression cultural crises, when artists, writers, poets and musicians began changing their careers in order to feed their families. At first, it was just no big deal - who needs all that fluff, those people get paid to do nothing anyways. Heck anybody and everybody can be an artist!
Much easier said than done though. At a certain point the federal govt noticed that American culture was becoming past tense. Persons in the creative disciplines that left those to make the money to support themselves and their families do not go back to their first careers after. American culture began to slide noticeably. Enter the WPA, that limped us through that time-frame.
Well here we are again, only this time it is the teachers that are being touted as expendable. It was just 2 - 3 years ago that the Chicago school district hired a couple of hundred teachers from Eastern Europe because they couldn't find enough to hire in the USA.
Wisconsin wants to get rid of all of those 'overpaid' teachers? Cool, they should do that. I was in high school in Oklahoma during the national teachers boycott of that state for similar unfair labour practices. Yeah, there was somebody in front of the class and they were not paid as much as a real teacher would have been. They also had no frikkin clue what they were talking about most of the time. When the universities started talking about not honouring OK HS diplomas any more, OK rebooted, got smart and went back to negotiating with the teachers.
Here in the USA, it is just peachy keen to pay some lunkhead $120 million a year to run around with a ball on a field, but it is unacceptable to pay a teacher a working wage. Rich lawmakers get set for life while they cut teachers, police and fireman's salaries crying poor. (how much does the WI governor make?) OK, let us lather, rinse and repeat while we watch the teachers bail on WI.
If we don't learn the lesson the first time through, maybe we will learn it the second or third time through. If we need an educated person to do a job for us, we can always hire one from Japan or China or India.
'Course if we try not to pay them they just won't do the work for us.
He told me that the uncertainty, the union busting and contractual take backs, class sizes touted to go to 65 children per teacher here and the decreasing salaries are all factors in his decision to pass on teaching. Wisconsin was the convincer that his choice is the right one.
This reminds me of the Great Depression cultural crises, when artists, writers, poets and musicians began changing their careers in order to feed their families. At first, it was just no big deal - who needs all that fluff, those people get paid to do nothing anyways. Heck anybody and everybody can be an artist!
Much easier said than done though. At a certain point the federal govt noticed that American culture was becoming past tense. Persons in the creative disciplines that left those to make the money to support themselves and their families do not go back to their first careers after. American culture began to slide noticeably. Enter the WPA, that limped us through that time-frame.
Well here we are again, only this time it is the teachers that are being touted as expendable. It was just 2 - 3 years ago that the Chicago school district hired a couple of hundred teachers from Eastern Europe because they couldn't find enough to hire in the USA.
Wisconsin wants to get rid of all of those 'overpaid' teachers? Cool, they should do that. I was in high school in Oklahoma during the national teachers boycott of that state for similar unfair labour practices. Yeah, there was somebody in front of the class and they were not paid as much as a real teacher would have been. They also had no frikkin clue what they were talking about most of the time. When the universities started talking about not honouring OK HS diplomas any more, OK rebooted, got smart and went back to negotiating with the teachers.
Here in the USA, it is just peachy keen to pay some lunkhead $120 million a year to run around with a ball on a field, but it is unacceptable to pay a teacher a working wage. Rich lawmakers get set for life while they cut teachers, police and fireman's salaries crying poor. (how much does the WI governor make?) OK, let us lather, rinse and repeat while we watch the teachers bail on WI.
If we don't learn the lesson the first time through, maybe we will learn it the second or third time through. If we need an educated person to do a job for us, we can always hire one from Japan or China or India.
'Course if we try not to pay them they just won't do the work for us.
Oh yeah - my best friend was a teacher for 28 years. His last years salary was $45 + benefits. He was called the best the school district had ever had in the special needs program and was the top earning teacher in the district.
That is starting pay for a mechanical engineer fresh out of school here.
That is starting pay for a mechanical engineer fresh out of school here.
Probably not when you figure in benefits.
That seems to be part of the problem, the benefit packages for state workers are generally very high.
So this bill was going to not cut pay, but make the state workers pay a bit more for their benefits, but not out of line with private workers.
The bill would: require state employees to contribute 5.8 percent of their pay to their pensions and require state employees to pay at least 12.6 percent of health care premiums (most pay about 6 percent now).
Almost all private workers I know in this pay range pay at least 6% of their salary to their 401K, but that still amounts to less of a retirement plan than the state employee pension plan is, and I pay 15% of my health care premiums and my plan comes with a large deductable, so again I don't see how this is unreasonable.
Arthur