This has been on my mind for a while now. I've been enrolled in college for who knows how long. The pressures put upon a person to get a college degree have prompted me to take this path in life. We all know that to get paid more you need to have a degree. Engineers, businessmen, entrepeneurs who all started out in college are making the big bucks now....or are they? While talking to an associate at work I come to find out that his friend is making a decent living working for UPS. At $20/hr one can live pretty decently I would say. Now look at some college graduates who make 30-35k per year upon graduation and compare it to the UPS worker, with no degree, and it comes out almost the same (college grad=35k, UPS=40k). Now, I thought the point of college was to get paid more than the average person. Don't get me wrong, lawyers, psychologists, doctors, etc make way more than either one of those mentioned in the example above. But more often than not I hear of people being able to get jobs so readily that pay quite decently and at the same time I hear of college grads having difficulty even finding jobs. What gives?
The Irony of Higher Education
- Thread starter Halo
- Start date
it's all a myth...
if you want money then avoid science.
if you want money then avoid science.
Have you noticed that the higher education expectation keeps getting HIGHER? Like, jobs you used to be able to get with a Master's degree now require a Ph.D.? Man, my fiance was looking for a job in publishing, and they wanted a person for an ENTRY-LEVEL position to have 10 YEARS of experience!
Meanwhile, all you hear on the radio is that you need to get certified as one kind of IT professional or another, and you'll make $75K. While the job market requires higher and higher degrees, many jobs are actually going to people who have not gone to college - not that they're dumb and only have a high school diploma - but that they are SPECIALLY TRAINED for that kind of work. Maybe they went to vocational school, or got certified in something. The most offensive thing are those "hospitality industry universities" geared toward minorities, to give them the "opportunity" to grow up and wait on people.
Rather than wasting 4-8+ years getting a well-rounded education and learning how to think, American management wants people who are robots, specialized in the exact tasks they're supposed to perform. Keep the academic types who want to actually THINK out of the way, by keeping them in college LONGER - until all they are qualified to DO is teach college, and then they're still safely tucked away in an academic bubble.
It's about control, because the working class has the potential to be the most powerful group of people (yes, I'm a Socialist, but I won't push that on you here). If everything is specialized and privitized and people learn how to be efficient robots rather than thinkers, then it makes it all the easier for people like Bush to steal an election and dump all of our resources (down the toilet) into a futile war for oil because people don't come together to fight for their civil rights, etc. That's why students make up most protests - and are written off as hippies in their safe little academic bubble world.
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Very few UPS workers make $20 an hour, and the benefits are terrible, by the way. MOST UPS workers are extremely underpaid, and the CEO gives himself million dollar raises even as he claims that business is bad and they're not ABLE to pay employees as well as they would like to. I don't know the stats on this myself, but let me ask you - is that $20 an hour figure for a full-time job? Or does the guy who gets $20 an hour only get to work ten hours a week? UPS has mastered the strategy of hiring as many people only part-time as possible, so that they don't have to give them benefits. I'm just saying this because your analogy between a UPS worker and a college grad starting at $35K doesn't quite match up (geez, I wish I made $35K . . .).
Meanwhile, all you hear on the radio is that you need to get certified as one kind of IT professional or another, and you'll make $75K. While the job market requires higher and higher degrees, many jobs are actually going to people who have not gone to college - not that they're dumb and only have a high school diploma - but that they are SPECIALLY TRAINED for that kind of work. Maybe they went to vocational school, or got certified in something. The most offensive thing are those "hospitality industry universities" geared toward minorities, to give them the "opportunity" to grow up and wait on people.
Rather than wasting 4-8+ years getting a well-rounded education and learning how to think, American management wants people who are robots, specialized in the exact tasks they're supposed to perform. Keep the academic types who want to actually THINK out of the way, by keeping them in college LONGER - until all they are qualified to DO is teach college, and then they're still safely tucked away in an academic bubble.
It's about control, because the working class has the potential to be the most powerful group of people (yes, I'm a Socialist, but I won't push that on you here). If everything is specialized and privitized and people learn how to be efficient robots rather than thinkers, then it makes it all the easier for people like Bush to steal an election and dump all of our resources (down the toilet) into a futile war for oil because people don't come together to fight for their civil rights, etc. That's why students make up most protests - and are written off as hippies in their safe little academic bubble world.
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Very few UPS workers make $20 an hour, and the benefits are terrible, by the way. MOST UPS workers are extremely underpaid, and the CEO gives himself million dollar raises even as he claims that business is bad and they're not ABLE to pay employees as well as they would like to. I don't know the stats on this myself, but let me ask you - is that $20 an hour figure for a full-time job? Or does the guy who gets $20 an hour only get to work ten hours a week? UPS has mastered the strategy of hiring as many people only part-time as possible, so that they don't have to give them benefits. I'm just saying this because your analogy between a UPS worker and a college grad starting at $35K doesn't quite match up (geez, I wish I made $35K . . .).
Reality 2.0
Registered Member
I have to agree on the point of brainwashed mechanicalized thinking. From the earliest points of our educated lives we are exposed to mechanical thinking. Standardized tests rule the world of the young, poorly measuring intellect, and constantly redefining their goal in life. The college world to has become less of a "thinking" society and more of a stepping stone to some kind of priveladge that has become what seems a myth. Don't get me wrong, I believe higher education is important, especially for the world of tomorrow, but somewhere society lost touch with it's true purpose.
Absolutely! The ONLY thing a standardized test can tell you is how good the individual is AT TAKING A STANDARDIZED TEST. It is the WORST criteria for intelligence. And I'm not saying that out of bitterness - I'm stellar at taking standardized tests - that's how I know it's a poor indicator of knowledge. I can still do extremely well on a standardized test that is testing a subject that I know virtually nothing about. Such bullshit.
Reality 2.0
Registered Member
In speaking of Irony in our educational system, standardized tests are constantly being revised due to our flailing school systems. Unfortunately our own educational has reached such a low, that even the standardized tests of yesterday remain too hard for the students of tomorrow. Just imagine, the downplay of intelligence is our future. Colleges have to start at even lower levels, and adjust the speeds as to which they teach just to make up for previous levels of education. In a sense going to college for four years is very important for the redeiming of a "corrupted" mind, but the "corruption" only continues. A diploma is your congrats to a mechanized life style as earlier stated. I have been in quite a few debates over standardized tests, and out of those I have debated with I continue to notice a great difficutly in relaying the the concept that our measures of intelligence are flawed.
The figure is indeed for a full time position. I figured $20/hr x 40hrs = 800. Then 800 x 52 weeks (40hrs/week) = 41600. That does suck for the UPS worker that the CEO is getting raises while the working conditions are not so great. But these were the numbers I was given. There are various other positions out there that pay alot. Upon overhearing some conversations amongst the younger folks with no college, they can make decent, if not $20/hr, money for doing mindless work. I'd have to agree that alot of companies just want the specialized worker that can do the job required of them. It gets to the bottom line alot quicker for them, the bottom line being more profit for the company. As for college grads, I have a friend who graduated with an Economics degree and landed a 40k job...but that was WITH a hookup.
From my perspective, $20 an hour would be nice. Indeed, I have a friend who has an associates in drafting and he doesn't make that much. I make very little personally. Granted that compared to the CEO $20 isn't much, but when you compare it to the amount of money the majority of the working class makes, $20 an hour is ritzy pay.
I am a high school drop-out in the IT field.
I took a ten month course (with no real prior knowledge of computer systems).
I have no certifications.
After about 5 years in the field, I make over 100K a year as an AVP of one of the largets finacial institutions in the world.
Formal secondary education WILL help you get interviews.
Experience, intelligence and personality will get you jobs.
All you need is something that will replace the role of formal education (to get you interviews).
Network of friends and colleagues.
Published paper.
A great recruiter.
An open field.
A father-in-law.
Anything else that will get your ass through the office door of a hiring decision-maker.
I took a ten month course (with no real prior knowledge of computer systems).
I have no certifications.
After about 5 years in the field, I make over 100K a year as an AVP of one of the largets finacial institutions in the world.
Formal secondary education WILL help you get interviews.
Experience, intelligence and personality will get you jobs.
All you need is something that will replace the role of formal education (to get you interviews).
Network of friends and colleagues.
Published paper.
A great recruiter.
An open field.
A father-in-law.
Anything else that will get your ass through the office door of a hiring decision-maker.
Is that why?
See, I couldn't disagree more.
I think the ONLY reason anyone should pursue secondary education is to further their knowledge and understanding of something that they are interested and/or passionate about.
Which is why I also feel that most people should not even CONSIDER college until at least 25 years of age (note that I said MOST, not ALL).
Most people don't know nearly enough about themselves before then because they simply haven't experience life yet.
They need to get out in the world and away from the sheltered existence of pseudo-life in the protected environment of limited responsibilty of life at home and in school.
That is why most people go through some sort of "identity crisis" in their mid - late twenties.
People's priorities are completely screwed up.
What you do for a living does not define who you are.
Who you are should define what you do for a living.
Get out in the world.
Work some really shitty jobs (lord knows I did my share).
Go through difficult times in which you only have yourself to rely upon.
Test yourself.
Fall in love.
Get hurt.
Learn who you are.
Support yourself, financially AND emotionally.
THEN decide what you want to do for a living and if that would require a degree.
What's the rush?
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The majority of Colleges have become junkyards where out of date idealists and political activists mold their ideas and ways of thinking on the young and impressionable, gaining fresh footsoldgers for their pet causes. If you don't conform to what they want you to believe and think, they take your money without any consolation for your efforts.
College is in most situations a scam, and I often feel like many college administrators and teachers should be tried for fraud. I mean, why should I PAY MONEY to become an activist? I could do that by joining NOW, PETA, GREENPEACE, or one of a thousand other organizations, and if I yell loud enough they bring me in full time and pay me a nicer salary than I would in plenty of other jobs.
College is in most situations a scam, and I often feel like many college administrators and teachers should be tried for fraud. I mean, why should I PAY MONEY to become an activist? I could do that by joining NOW, PETA, GREENPEACE, or one of a thousand other organizations, and if I yell loud enough they bring me in full time and pay me a nicer salary than I would in plenty of other jobs.
In retrospect, I completely agree. When I entered college I had no idea what to major in. I took up Engineering because that's what every asian family wanted. I had little to no interest in the field so I ended up making bad grades. I also agree that people should experience life before they make a huge decision like that. I've opened up to the world more now and I have actually found some interests I never knew were inside of me. Some of them I've gained through reading here on the forums (astronomy,philosophy, etc). Oh how it would have been so much easier if I had learned what I like to do first rather than to enter college like the countless other drones who just run the race without knowing where the finish line is. Now that I have these interests, the question still stands. Why go to college? Yes, they give you books to read and topics to discuss to further your knowledge of the subjects. But you still end up gaining squat for your time and effort. Most, not all, people can't remember what they were tested on only 2 hours ago. They merely "learn" the material so they can receive the "A" on their report card at the end of the semester. After they receive the grade the material is completely lost to them. I think I'm drifting from the topic. In the end people will still go to college for the money. That is why a majority of the people hate their jobs. Because doing what they like doesn't pay as much.
Xevious:
Did you go to college?
<i>The majority of Colleges have become junkyards where out of date idealists and political activists mold their ideas and ways of thinking on the young and impressionable, gaining fresh footsoldgers for their pet causes. If you don't conform to what they want you to believe and think, they take your money without any consolation for your efforts.</i>
In my opinion, a good college teaches its students to think for themselves. They are not taught what to think, but how to think. A student who acts as a footsoldier for somebody else's pet cause is not thinking, and probably shouldn't be in college in the first place.
Did you go to college?
<i>The majority of Colleges have become junkyards where out of date idealists and political activists mold their ideas and ways of thinking on the young and impressionable, gaining fresh footsoldgers for their pet causes. If you don't conform to what they want you to believe and think, they take your money without any consolation for your efforts.</i>
In my opinion, a good college teaches its students to think for themselves. They are not taught what to think, but how to think. A student who acts as a footsoldier for somebody else's pet cause is not thinking, and probably shouldn't be in college in the first place.
Higher education?
A lot depends on what you want to be - and whether money alone is what motivates you. If you want to be a medic, or lawyer or engineer, or geneticist, or.... then you need to get the appropriate degree. There was a time when a little IT knowledge went a long way but that is changing rapidly - as more people become computer-literate and the number of 'web-designers' goes up exponentially.
If you only want to make money - then a degree might be superfluous.
My own experience? Ph.D in mech engineering and most of my time in public-service education - been teaching at Uni for about 25 years. I'll never be rich but I seldom get bored.
Cheers,
Ron.
A lot depends on what you want to be - and whether money alone is what motivates you. If you want to be a medic, or lawyer or engineer, or geneticist, or.... then you need to get the appropriate degree. There was a time when a little IT knowledge went a long way but that is changing rapidly - as more people become computer-literate and the number of 'web-designers' goes up exponentially.
If you only want to make money - then a degree might be superfluous.
My own experience? Ph.D in mech engineering and most of my time in public-service education - been teaching at Uni for about 25 years. I'll never be rich but I seldom get bored.
Cheers,
Ron.
Yes, I was in College for several years. One history teacher was a professed feminist. The other one, was a professed democrat. All three of my political science teachers were politically active members of the DNC. One even went so far as to write all of his own text for the class and only allow the class to use the New York Times for all of it's news reports. My anthropology teacher went at length to talk about how inhuman the Jewish culture was. And, I haven't even started on the additudes of my teachers while I was in the Music department...
If this is your idea of enlightenment, may whatever heaven you believe in help us.
If this is your idea of enlightenment, may whatever heaven you believe in help us.
This is an interesting argument, but it's very faulty. If two people think identically, they most often conclusions. Thus, if College is teaching you HOW to think, they are teaching you how to come to the conclusions they do. That includes wether you accept it or not, whatever slants they personally might have.