The Irony of Higher Education

Originally posted by Xevious
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you might be interested to know that most people with degrees work in fields which have nothing to do with their education, and unfortunetly many of the previous posts in this threat covered many of the pointes you made as well. All College does it gage how well you can take tests and regurgitate material to be forgotten 20 mintues after the exam.
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College gauges your ability to write well, think analytically, remember things, and work hard. As an employer, wouldn't you prefer to hire a person who has some proof that they have these qualities?
BTW - Thank you for proving my point that degrees function as a caste system in which one is separated out from the percived layman. Instead of being born with patents of nobility, you buy them.
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You don't buy it; you earn it through hard work. I'm not sure what you mean about 'proving your point' that having a college education gives someone an advantage. Of course people with degrees have an advantage; they are better educated.
 
I am a millionaire, i dont have a college education, all it took was a business strategy and good old hardwork. The person who plays the game, should not be played by the game.
 
<i>Sorry to burst your bubble, but you might be interested to know that most people with degrees work in fields which have nothing to do with their education...</i>

If they have a good education it includes things like critical thinking, analysing and digesting information, and thinking independently. These skills are useful in practically every field.

<i>All College does it gage how well you can take tests and regurgitate material to be forgotten 20 mintues after the exam.</i>

I assume you either didn't go to college, or didn't do very well at it.
 
What about efficiency, employers want efficiency. Whether they’re looking for a specialists dedicated to one task or a jack of all trades they want efficiency.
 
Having a college degree is no garuntee of either success or even a livable income. It is mostly dependant on what your field of study is. My mother has a masters degree in Public Administration, and works for the local housing assistance program. She makes so little money, that when I was growing up we qualified for most of the assistance programs that she was recommending to her clients. In contrast, I have a friend who is some kind of computer specialist ( she has No college degree). She owns her own condo and is living the yuppie life that you see in movies. My friend, at what is the beginning of her working career is making about twice what my mother has worked up to after earning a degree and a dozen years of experience in her field. If anyone thinks higher education is all it takes to get a decent job, They're living in a dream world.
 
Theory of Relativity

Without trying to be too simplistic, it seems that higher education is rather relative in relation to being able to help you land a killer job.

My brother has a Master's in Bilingual Education. I have an Associate's in Science. I make basically just a little less than he does per year. My wife went to two years at a specialty school for graphic design and is making more than myself (you go girl!).

My other brother just completed his Bachelor's in Psychology and is currently getting $18/hr doing absolutely nothing related to his major (and it's not computer-related). He has no plans of changing careers upon graduation.

I don't denounce higher education, it's just that I don't have the necessary drive or ambition to stick with a certain major. I'm really too thrilled to learn many different ideologies, subjects, etc. to hold to one and go the long haul. I have a pretty solid job right now, but I'm also quite sure that it will not exist in 2-3 years. In the meantime, I can only hope that I'll go to school and get to task with more classes.

My boss just completed a Bachelor's in Philosophy, although he doesn't use it (except maybe indirectly) at all in his job. Degrees and diplomas are just a foot in the door, experience seems to be the main key. We use to have two programmer consultants we'd need from time to time a while back. One was one of those guys that had been programming since the doctor spanked his ass and didn't have much education college-wise; the other has a Master's in Computer Science. The CompSci guy was the other one's boss, yet we consulted both. We paid the instinctive (non-college) guy $15 more an hour than we did his boss (of course, we didn't let either of them know that). Why don't we use them now? My coworker has gradually learned how to do what we needed them for. My coworker (also a programmer out of the womb) has coupled his innate grasp of programming with taking classes at the local college.

Suffice to say that I believe that when it comes to teaching specialized subjects, there are far better ways to teach than what is currently being taught at most colleges. I have learned much more working with my coworker than I did going to college for a year or so in the computer department. Granted, there are a couple good teachers, but most of them sucked royally.

And as far as the caste system, I couldn't agree more. It works that way if you don't have a degree also. If you're one of those people that learned something but you don't want to share that with others, then you fall into that classification. That's why I like to help people when they have programming questions in the Computer forum. There are too many high-and-mighty "Let's let <i>them</i> figure it out for themselves" people out there. Sometimes people need examples, good ones. If they don't learn by themselves eventually, what's the worry?

Of course I recommend going to college, if you can afford it. Because it's quite a hefty price (financial, time, out of work, social) which just doesn't quite pay you back in any of those areas. It may come close in the financial and social, but not the other two.

Great points by all! Excellent thread.
 
I didn't read all the responses and may be just regurgitating but....

If your goal in going to college is only to make more money in a career, then do some research into what average salaries are for various fields. It isn't hard and you can get a good idea of what majors pay the most. Simply pick one that pays alot and sparks your interest and go with it. But as you say, you can make descent money without a degree.

Thing is, college should be about much more than that. You are missing out on alot if that is your only goal. It really should be about learning and maturing socially. I majored in MIS but I really enjoyed some of my electives. Pick electives that you want to learn about, not just easy classes.

I am being a bit of a hypocrit as I skipped many classes and generally crammed. But if I had to do it over again I would cut back slightly on the partying (maybe).
 
I did rather well at College in the field I chose - I didn't finish because of a lack of money.

Those that argue for college education do see it's advantages and I'm not arguing their are none - that was never my point. What I am arguing is that the advantages Colleges offer you have far more to do with the piece of paper they give you at the end than what you learned while you were in College.

Their are countless times underpaid draftsmen in engineering firms are pulling the engineers out of the fire because they are simply more creative at designing something. Often Classical musicians with college degrees fall on their faces in a professional career to rat-tag amatures because they lack the creative talent that the amature carries.

College can give you knowledge: it cannot give you talent. Suscess is dependent upon having both elements, and a college degree simply does not reflect that - and thus cannot truly reflect the amount of money one ought to be paid, or how valueble a contribution one can make.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
- Albert Einstein
 
How long it takes to learn something?

A journalist wanted to know how long it takes to know Chineese language and culture. He asked an opinion from a professor of Chineese at Harward. The professor answered "To know Chineese really well it would take about 30 years." Then the journalist asked a small-town college teacher: the answer was "well it would take from six to eight years". Finally he asked a student. The student gave the question short, silent consideration and then he asked back: "When is the exam going to be held?"
 
I'm not entirely sure if the debate is about degrees, or college. They aren't exactly the same.

Colleges, in my opinion, aren't about degrees, but are about a learning environment. Students should go to them to learn to think. I'll use myself as an example.

I love computers and technology. I would gladly do something useless with computers to amuse myself, and just for the sake of doing it. I want to get a career with computers, so I can be around them and maybe even develop some things that interest me at my job. (as opposed to potentially very boring server maintainence)

I know for a fact degrees aren't everything for some organizations. I have a relative who runs a game developing company. Some of their talent don't have degrees. They really don't care if you have a piece of paper, they care what you can do. And that's why most programming jobs (at least for game stuff) you are required to prove what you can do with either material proof (demos) and/or experience. They know college educations don't exactly count as experience.

So I have two options to learn about computers on a higher level: go to college, or get a job and study on my own time. Which sounds better to you? Not only does not going to college mean I have to support myself, I also have to kick my ass and get to learning. Since I have scholarships, college not only provides the most amount of learning time, it provides a better learning environment (deadlines and help). Not to mention in college I'll meet lots of similar people, and even different people.

"College can give you knowledge: it cannot give you talent."

True, but I know I have some talent. But I cannot nurture that talent without the right environment. High-school taught me how to be lazy and get reasonable grades (A's in the easy classes like math, B's in the boring classes) with almost no homework (no studying, but all nighters for assignments). I wouldn't have it any other way, since the material in high school was too boring to be worth my time.

For me, the idea that college has specific learning criteria is not a problem. For one it forces you to work within boundaries, that is useful for many jobs. But it doesn't mean you are that restricted. You can be creative with your projects of course, especially if creativity is a means to efficiency.

A computer science teacher I met told me a story about a group working on a project. One student hardly contributed to the project at all. The day before it was due, he came in late and redesigned the whole thing so it was much smaller and more efficient (they were working with some simple computer designs it looked like - a circuit board with a programmable chip, ram, and interface...). The fact that maybe he should have been communicating more with his group aside, that example of creativity and intelligence made college sound so much more exciting to me.

If you are getting a PhD, doesn't that give you opportunities to be creative, within a college/university environment: working on thesis', etc...?

I can't wait. (I start september)
 
I will not tell you what I make in money, on my job. I will say this, you don't get trained for it in most schools.

Because of this, the company I work for sends you to special schools that they themselves run. The work is varied, with some degree of freedom. (I don't have someone looking over my shoulder or a clock card to punch) However to have that freedom the government requires that I be certified as being able to do the job and must return to recertify at given times. (The recert process requires hands on testing to show you can preform) The company also requires certifications to hold down liability in legal aspects. In the end it means, I should carry a wallet just for the cert's that I am required to hold.

It is not a 9 to 5 job and that is ok. Most other places I always worked two jobs but not this one. Don't need to anymore. It is not often someone falls into such a job and none of us can be replaced with a lower paid worker, as you can not pull them off the street when needed. Takes several years to learn to do the job and be able to do it. It is usually after 5 or 6 years that folks are let out on their own and they often need help and advice for a long time after that from thier co-workers.

This is what schooling can not give you. The experience. It can give you basic know-how which can cut the learning time down but it can not replace the experience process.
 
Halo... there is always some sort of a price to pay for the big bucks. I think to work full time at UPS you have to work 3 hours shifts for like 7 years... I mean, that may not be completely accurate, but to straight up get a $20 an hour job from no education does not happen to most people. Education does not pay off as much as it did, I agree. And to get in school out of pressure sucks too, I might have done the same thing. But I will be glad in 2 years to be working a better job than now, and I don't care so much about pay because I will like what I am doing. Money sucks.
 
My cousin never went to college, started his own landscaping business, now he owns real estate, a few hundred thousand dollars in equipment (including a back hoe,) and lives comfortably. His brother, me and my brother are all struggling with our college educations, and lower paying jobs. This is not to say college isn't worth it, but it is not necessary in all cases. Further, I resent the guidance councilors pushing college as the only option so they can boost their statistics which make the school look better. How about measuring the amount of grads who make it through college? How about how happy the graduates are after leaving high school? At Umass where I went, over 50% of my class dropped out, most of the people there didn't belong. We need to give better direction, many people can do real well in life as plumbers, electricians etc. But instead, kids waste 1-2 years of their lives, and up to 60,000 dollars for nothing.
 
I conclude from everyones statements that a college education will give you a better opportunity for the desired salary and by the same token not having a degree is not severely detrimental to your financial well-being. Where everyone disagrees seems to be the point that a college degree will prepare you for the workforce. Nothing prepares like experience. But I don't see how extra knowledge could hurt. That is assuming you take measures to ascertain this knowledge instead of half-assing it through college (I am guilty of that sometimes). The desire to learn and apply what is taught in the classroom is the sole responsibility of the individual. It isn't fair to penalize the instituition when a student doesn't try. The university is there and is offering education, knowledge, and maybe a little bit of experience, i.e. internships. In fact, these internships are the proverbial foot in the door it seems. Just another advantage to going to college I suppose.

So another question that strikes me is "Are these people, the ones that have no degrees, just extremely lucky to land decent paying jobs or is there an indifference on the part of employers to hiring someone with or without a degree?"
 
Originally posted by Halo
So another question that strikes me is "Are these people, the ones that have no degrees, just extremely lucky to land decent paying jobs or is there an indifference on the part of employers to hiring someone with or without a degree?"
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In general there is a big influence on the part of employers to hire people with degrees. I'm sure there are a few examples out there of employers who prefer to hire employees who aren't college educated, but they are definitely in the minority. There are also individuals who are so talented in a particular field that they can make themselves attractive to a potential employer even without a college education.
 
A degree will only rarely help you in your career. In Canada a Biology degree will usually land you in a lab tech job that pays ~32k.

On the other hand, anyone can get a job as a receptionist, accountant, or whatever for that kind of money, and without any post-secondary education.

The reason why you go to college/university is not because it will get you a better career; if you want a better career you go to a magnet or prep school that will actually direct you. A normal liberal arts/social science/science degree does not lead you into a career at all.

Consider Anthropology, for instance. A booming field in education... no actual jobs. Maybe - maybe - as an anthropologist you can become a forensic investigator, but if you want a career in anthropology you're better off becoming a professor. So that you can teach other people about it so that they can become... professors.

The theory is that all of these guys are engaged in research, making the world a better place. However, what this means is that if you're a Biology major with a talent for understanding membrane transport, you shouldn't expect to have a million jobs waiting for you outside of the educational/research system.


The main point of higher education in my opinion is that it makes clear some of the things you need to know to live your life. To measure these things as a kind of dollar value is to miss the point. There are some things you learn in college/university that you will probably never get on your own.
 
Hahh....... education......
Right now I'm in a university, and even having hard time to advance.... besides, I go to university to gain more knowledge, and I may say that what I do is not what I want......
I think I'm agree to someone saying schools are mere tools to (err, what's that polite term? Duh, I fotgot) 'enslave' students to do the 'seniors' biddings. I've experienced that too: Do what they want, and get a good mark, otherwise, be an eternal student. I'm even unsure now if I 'want' to study in formal education....
 
xevious you act like you jsut pay the tuition, then all of a sudden you have a degree. this is by no means true, nor is it true that having a degree creates a caste system. a degree gives an employer some sort of standardization in evaluating potential employees. who would you hire, someone who comes in and says i know all about bioengineering, take my word for it, or would you hire someone who has proven himself in the course work with good grades and has documented laboratory experience. a company just cannot afford to take the risk.

also, one of the beautiful things about the college atmosphere is the fact that you have such a broad subject selection as well as class selection to choose from. you should be able to get a sense of what the course is like by its title and its description. so if you felt that you were swamped by crusading liberals that is your own fault. you either chose the wrong classes or you are just paranoid and highly closeminded. i tend to go with the second option judging by your previous posts.

also, if the university life these days forces you to conform to liberalism or fail, how do you explain the fact that we see so many conservatives with college educations? the school i went to undergrad for had a thriving young republicans organization. these people werent kicked out for not conforming to the liberal mindset.

i also do not see anyway that someone can attain a phd without great creativity and hard work.
 
I second that. Going into college doesn't absolutely guarantee you a job. In fact, the rise of people cheating there way through the grades will make the value of a degree go down, because they employeer will higher someone with good grades all the way through a degree, and realize they are not fit for the job. So an associate's degree requirement gets pushed to a bachelor's degree requirement.
On the same token, I know a lot of people that were playing with old Apple computers and programming when they were 10. They never even did any school after high school, but are making 30 dollars an hour based on what they know and being able to apply it.
I believe, still, going to a good college and really studying is the best way to learn, not just for the grades, but keeping in mind all the time that the stuff you are learning now, somebody will expect you to remember. It will feel better your first day on in a nice job to know as much as you can, instead of pissing off your employer and feeling like an idiot.
I think the big mistake is people don't really do what they want to do, they do what will get them a lot of money. Then they just try to make the grades, and really don't learn anything. The best part in life is doing what you want to do everyday, for a job. Then you will get good at it and make just as good money anyways.

Sorry, got a little carried away. :)
 
Skills that an employer needs will land you a job. The problem is that some skills aren't needed, and those that are often aren't learnt until the post-grad stage.
 
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