Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by JimmyJames, May 20, 2001.

  1. ogster Registered Member

    transporting??? thats a trickey 1.
    first of all, if u were 2 transport, there would have 2 b some kinda computer that would hold the information to, not only about how 2 put u back 2geather, but had the abbitly 2 remmber which atom went where. as u know,there is no such tech avaible at the mo.

    i think a more real idea is 2 use space time. worm holes and black holes would b far simpler 2 transport some1 than 2 transport directly.

    one question 4 u all, if u had the abitty 2 transport some1 from pont A to point B, would the person that came out be the same person that went in. (is it the way the mind is made up from, that determens who some1 is, or the things in a persons brain?) could u transport some1s experince?
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  3. rlpete2 Registered Member


    You're close to the nub of the problem, in that the oscilllation of atoms, etc., will make it hard to determine and re-establish their positions, but...

    The vector (speed and direction) must also be restored, and, according to Heisenberg, it will not be possible to determine both the position and vector, only one or the other. To reconstitute and object, let alone a person, this would be necessary. Teleporting an electron is not the same; the electron is an electron, but anything more complex is a relationship between particles, and that requires information on motion.

    If this isn't clear yet, imagine your body cooled to absolute zero, where there would be no motion of any particles; would you still be you???? It would be an even bigger problem if all the particles were restored to the proper place, but with random vectors (motion.) The electrons in your neurons going in random directions, body fluids going backwards, heart muscles out of sync. Not a very pleasant propect.

    Besides, if we had teleportation to count on, we'd soon take it for granted and be late for work anyway.
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  5. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

    Parltly true

    If we cooled an object to absolute zero, there would be nearly no movement of atoms, but there is still the problem of transporting significantly large object through space, vis a vi removing atoms from their bonds. There are probably over ten thousand trillion atoms in the human body alone, there would be too many to calculate with a computer now, or even one a hundred years more advanced. The logistics are the real problem, not me.
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  7. Corey340 Registered Member

    I must admit that I am taken aback by the view that teleportation is considered by most here to be a one-step process. Perhaps the correct way to think out such a difficult subject would be to tightly couple all of the existing technologies and THEN put a futurist spin to them.

    For example, not less than 15 minutes ago, I teleported my voice (in real time believe it or not) across three continents.

    If you add in a dash of 3-d holography, humans would be able to perceive the 'teleported' individual.

    Folks a lot smarter than me can fill in the rest. I like reading this stuff but you guys should keep it simple. You get better results that way!!
  8. kmguru Staff Member

    Well, those SF videos inspire us to come up the solution. The explanation given by non-technical writers is taken with the spirit it was written. Have you ever seen a computer keyboard spark like fourth of July fireworks? or a palm pilot shoot out lightning bolts?

    Actually Stargate idea is much closer to the truth than Startrek in teleportation. WE will have intraplanet teleportation in 30 years where we will move the whole body (not information, not atoms or clones) from point A to point B. How? same way we can talk in almost realtime across the planet on the tele-phone.

    What that means is we have no idea what the technology basis will be anymore than Da Vinci knew what an airplane will look like or the caveman knew what is the theory behind antibiotics...I think, we will find some obscure physical law that can be manipulated for the intended result.

    Having said that, we should do some real research and find anything that we could use towards a real solution rather than relying on the SF to give us all the answers. Since I will be the co-inventor of the teleportation technology in 2023, I need all the help I can get!!!
  9. HOWARDSTERN HOWARDSTERN has logged out.... Registered Senior Member

    What is it about the number 23?????

    The idea of stripping atoms apart and spewing them across a void to deposit them at a destination point in the precise order that these atoms were in to begin with..........seems like a daunting task at least. But what the hell. Anything is possible, as you all know.

    Scan and store in a huge computer memory device, every last patterned atom (or at least most) in the human body. <i> "Spock, how much computer memory are we talking about?"</i>

    MRI, CAT, PET,.......... hell guys, even if some 21st century Leonardo never quite develops a perfect scanning device which is able to store all of the necessary information about a prospective teleporting guinea pig, required to re-assemble it at the destination point, he (Leonardo) will have one hell of a device which will doubtlessly revolutionize the ability of medical scientists to diagnose and treat the injuries and ailments of all living beings. Heck, there could be some money to be made in that field of study.

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    <b>Sub-Atomic oscillation?</b> You got me on that. The inability to predict the present/future positions of sub-atomic particles so as to scan them into a memory buffer? Offhand, I would wonder if a scanning device might incorporate yet another piece of technology which could detect the various resonation frequencies of the matter within a chambered organism/test object and thus store the information based on a rhythmn, if such a thing could possibly exist???????

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    Also, it occurs to me that the natural space/time oscillations between the source and the destination point would also have to be allowed for in much the same way.

    <i>"If this isn't clear yet, imagine your body cooled to absolute zero, where there would be no motion of any particles; would you still be you???? It would be an even bigger problem if all the particles were restored to the proper place, but with random vectors (motion.) The electrons in your neurons going in random directions, body fluids going backwards, heart muscles out of sync. Not a very pleasant propect." </i> ....quote from rlpete2....

    <b>That reminds me of the first time that I decided to build a hot rod Chevy engine (283 small block). I was 14 at the time and knew just enough about engine rebuilding to end up with an engine that performed almost exactly as ripete2's previous quote</b>

    Many mistakes will be made during the learning process........

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  10. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    The mistakes

    ...and if you think that commercial of firing little furry critters at a target wall with a hole in it would upset the animal rights movement think of what inside out furry little critters would do...
  11. kmguru Staff Member

  12. HOWARDSTERN HOWARDSTERN has logged out.... Registered Senior Member


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  13. ogster Registered Member

    it was my understanding that u can not make anything absolute zero, as that would have 2 make the heat that an atom gives out 2 become nothing. this would b kinda like switching it off, it would then become unstable and give a lil bang kinda like the size of an atom bomb.

    or am i thinking of something else?
  14. kmguru Staff Member

    How did we go from teleportation to absolute zero? Anyway, if abolute zero means no energy then there is nothing, nada, zilch. No electron buzzing around. No photon going at the speed of light. Just nothing... I think...
  15. Crisp Gone 4ever Registered Senior Member

    Absolute Zero

    Hi Kmguru, Ogster,

    Absolute zero (0 Kelvin) would be a state where there's no energy left in an atom lattice. However, there are some problems reaching 0 K:

    1. In thermodynamics there's a theorem that prevents this(sometimes referred to as the third law of thermodynamics, or cited as an equivalent of the hundreds of formulations of the third law). The theorem states that you cannot reach 0 K by any number of finite operations (it would hence take an infinite amount of operations and time to cool to 0 K).

    2. Quantummechanically speaking, you can describe the oscillations of atoms in their lattice as a harmonic oscillation. The problem is that harmonic oscillators in quantummechanics cannot have an energy zero (which would correspond to 0 K thermic energy equivalent), because the ground state always has a tiny fraction of energy left.

    But that's just the theory ofcourse... And theories are to be proven wrong

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  16. Hevene Registered Senior Member

    still on about conciousness

    I think that conciousness is just the way we respond to everyday situations using the information that we stored in our brains. Of we could transmit body codes, we are also sending the information in our brain, thus when dealing with sitations after the the codes are transmitted, it wouldn't be any different to the way the conciousness was before.

    (Hope I'm getting I idea across, can't seem to express myself clearly today.)
  17. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Hi Hevene,
    I have been away for my holidays, so I have not been able to reply earlier.
    What exactly do you mean with "body codes"?
    If you try to say: "you can transfer the 'contents of one consciousness' into another consciousness" I have to disagree.
  18. Hevene Registered Senior Member

    Hi Merlijn:

    On second thought...I could be wrong.
    body codes - genetic codes
    What I was saying is just that, we react to everday situations because of the knowledge we stored in our brain from past experiences. When we transfer our codes, if we could also transfer the info in our brains, we could still have the same conciousness after the telepotation.
    I'm not sure whether we could tranfer our knowledge, what do you think?
  19. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Indeed, when teleported, knowledge will be transferred as well. Our knowledge is not stored in codes, but in patterns. When the neural structure that contains the patterns is unchanged by the teleportation, the knowledge of the organism will be the same afterwards.
    And probably, you would also have the same thought as when you "departed" (given that the process of teleportation takes approximately zero).
    Luckily, your axons (the long part of the neuron) would conduct the neural signals in the same direction as they normally would, even when less-then-perfect information was used in the re-assimilation of your body (sorry, rlpete2 you were wrong here; and neurons use ions to conduct electrical signals, not electrons).

    This answer only applies for 'non-dualistic' sentient beings... I started a discussion on the nature of consciousness in Science > Intelligence & Machines (Poll:What is the stuff our dreams are made of?).

    If you still have questions I will be glad to answer them.

  20. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

    I would think that the time taken to teleport would be relative. If you are the observer it would take "x" time as nothing travels faster than light. The farther the distance the longer it takes. For the teleportee's viewpoint it would be instanous as he would be in a static state (being disassembled).

    What are your speculations if this should not happen? If they did indeed reverse their path?
  21. Merlijn curious cat Registered Senior Member

    Yes, that is what I meant. the local (or expriereced) time of the teleportee. I can imagine a way of teleportation in which that time is not zero, but that is besides the point.

    very simple model of a typical neuron:

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    My guess is:
    If the direction of the neural signal over the axon would be inverted, nothing much would happen (except that your heart may stop beating - minor problem). The signal would travel towards the soma (body) of the neuron, which would get polarised. After that the signal would get lost, because the soma nor the dendrites can give a signal off to other neurons.
    So after that, I think, the neural system would function normally again; just as if nothing out of the ordinary (except for the teleportation) had happened.

  22. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

    This is probably just a stupid idea but....

    Hey guys,
    I'm new to this forum so please bear with me if my ideas sound stupid. Due to the fact that I have not read all posts I'm sorry if I'm repeating anything.

    I disagree with the idea that you would have to disentangle an object atom by atom and then reanimate it at the destanitation. I think the process is much simpler Heres the idea:

    space, time, and motion are the only way matter interacts. motion being a combination of movement through space and time you could move from point A to point B without sacrificing space and time.... basically the same thing because they need eachother to exist otherwise they would be what you would need to do is create a wormhole by disentangling space and time, thus voiding them, between into a non existant pathway where walking in one side would lead you directly out the other some distance away. I'm only 15 so basically I'm to lazy to think of how you could dissentangle space and time. I'm sure I am capable of finding the answer because i'm halfway there by just understanding the problem. maybe in about three years when I'm living in a cardboard box and have nothing better to do.
  23. Catalyst Registered Member

    late opinion

    I think it realy comes down to what you believe a human is composed of. If you take the view that we are just a very advanced biological machine as hard science tends to, then by replicating all of our physical systems you would automaticly "reload" your conscious mind and mental phychie, complete with memories and emotions. You would be exactualy who you were before you were sent. If you believe however that we have a soul or spirit that gives us our annimation that's a different matter, you'de be screwed. If you had to distroy the ogiginal after sending the instructions so as to avoid cloning, you certainly wouldn't want to get the message "Unable to send message: Please try again later" ! ha ha.

    By the way, I havn't read a lost of the later posts. If someone has already said much the same thing "PLEASE FORGIVE ME WAAA, WAAA, BOO HOO".....

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