sep 11, 2001 vs. jan 6, 2021

[James R]

In my opinion fraud was made in the 2020 elections, and to me, no matter if at the end Biden got more votes, to me, fraud is fraud, and the party that commits fraud must lose everything.

There have been many separate investigations about the integrity of the election. Not a single one has found evidence of fraud sufficient to overturn the result. In fact, it looks a lot like the level of fraud in the last Presidential election was very likely the lowest level on record.

If you really cared about fair elections, you would not be voting for the party that gerrymanders large swathes of your nation. Without the manipulated electoral boundaries, the Democrats would be winning elections by significant margins, rather than barely scraping into office. You might also want to look the current Republican manoeuvers to try to put pro-Trump people in to "verify" electoral results - secretaries of state, etc.

On the other hand, accusations made to the actions of the Democrat campaign committing fraud are very credible to me. I do believe they did it.

I don't believe that you're basing your assessment on any hard evidence, but rather on fake news, propaganda and an unhealthy dose of wishful thinking.

Those people in Washington DC downtown also believed in fraud committed by Democrats.

They were told the Big Lie by Trump and his cronies, and they believed it. They were egged on to try to carry out a coup on Trump's behalf. Trump was impeached. Twice. He should rightly have been convicted in the Senate trial process, too, but that was never going to happen with the Republican senators toeing the line.

I just give my opinion because I'm entitled to do so.

Of course. It's just a pity that, like so many of your fellow countrymen, you're so woefully ill-informed and mis-informed. American democracy is on a knife-edge. It seems, these days, that among Republican voters, only about one-third actually want a democracy. The other two-thirds think that an armed insurrection is a good idea (according to to polls), because, like you, they believe the Big Lie.

 

[Watcher]

because the right wing in the us loves domestic terrorists if they are political allies. lets not beat around the bush the republican party really isn't that far off from being a legit terrorist orginization.

Only quibble I would have with your statement is that after Trump hijacked the Republican party, it became the party of Trump (or Trumpist Party, or New American Fascist Party, or whatever you want to call it). The few traditional Republicans that are left are really the only thing keeping the Republic intact at this point, since the Democrats seem completely clueless about how to deal with the anarchist Right. They are living in la-la land like most of modern America, hoping that "it can't happen here" as they play away on their electronic toys and fill their minds with trivialities and address relatively meaningless "issues".

ABSOLUTELY the Right is doing everything in their power to rewrite history and to downplay January 6th, which as anyone with a brain understands, was simply a trial run for the next attempt at a legislative coup. To some extent they are succeeeding, because with right-wing media and the Internet it is easy to spin alternative "facts" to the masses that are yearning for more and better populist drivel.

The times they "are a changing" as Bob Dylan once said almost 60 years ago. Just not in the way that he had imagined.

 

[Watcher]

It's just a pity that, like so many of your fellow countrymen, you're so woefully ill-informed and mis-informed. American democracy is on a knife-edge. It seems, these days, that among Republican voters, only about one-third actually want a democracy. The other two-thirds think that an armed insurrection is a good idea (according to to polls), because, like you, they believe the Big Lie.

I was born and raised in the USA, out where fields are green and the politics are Red - and I completely agree with you. Ultranationalism and populism has transfixed a sector of this country, and today with the Internet, it's relatively easy to keep spreading the lies and the propaganda. We are a couple of elections away from seeing a legislative coup - after all it almost succeeded on January 6th. It could very well have succeeded then if Mike Pence had followed Trump's instructions like a good and faithful goose-stepper.

Unfortunately it's not just the USA. Neo-fascism is spreading its tentacles all over the world. Hard to say where this is leading, but if you live in Europe you've seen this movie before.

 

[Bells]

On January 6, 2021 American citizens entered without authorization to a public building. Pictures showing security guards talking in friendly way to them shows it wasn't an invasion or antipatriotic event. There are even pictures showing a lovely grandma smiling to the camera while carrying the America flag and such old person can't be considered as a threat for the safety of politicians and others inside that building. By no means such unauthorized entrance was a danger to our country.

Those American citizens, as you call them, entered your nation's Capitol and attempted to overturn an election by staging a coup. They also expressed the desire to murder members of the government as well as the vice president and had set up a noose outside. In the process, they killed a police officer, injured countless of others, damaged property and set up explosives in the building.

You're making it seem as though they jumped the roped off area and had a bit of a wander.

I mean, sure, you are free to state your opinion, but when said opinion runs against what was clearly shown and blatantly obvious, then frankly, we cannot take anything you say seriously.

It is amazing how much fuss is made about American citizens going inside a public building and get arrested while thousands and thousands of illegals immigrants enter to public and private lands everyday into the US without authorization and rather of being arrested are leaved free even rewarded with a path to permanent residence and even citizenship.

Again, those "American citizens" tried to overthrow an election and essentially tried to stage a coup.

That poses a greater threat to the state of your union, then a few thousand illegal immigrants entering the country and doing the menial work you refuse to do, not to mention those illegal immigrants pay taxes that you benefit from.

The events of September 11, 2001 are more close to the daily event of illegal immigrants entering into the US, are foreign people invading US lands, and a danger to our country.

Are those illegal immigrants trying to overthrow your government? No.

Did they fly planes into your buildings? No.

How many police officers and people in general died and got injured with Black Lives Matter street protests? How much destruction was made in those demonstrations?

Did any of them attempt to overthrow the government? No.

They were protesting police brutality and murders of minorities at the hands of police, which, I don't know if you're aware or not.. Is a bad thing.

I will tell you what being antipatriotic is: Kneeling when the National Anthem is heard.

Oh for god's sakes!

What's more important to you? A song? Or people's lives?

You don't think staging a coup is unpatriotic, but you think kneeling during an anthem is.

I guess we know your priorities..

In my opinion fraud was made in the 2020 elections, and to me, no matter if at the end Biden got more votes, to me, fraud is fraud, and the party that commits fraud must lose everything.

What fraud was committed?

During countless court cases, not a single piece of evidence was shown to the court to support any allegations of fraud. Even when the judge asked them to provide it, no proof was provided.

Complaints are that one Republican committed fraud, but this man was a private person not involved with the Republican campaign.

Each of the cases that Republicans state governments have shown of fraud, involved republicans...

No evidence suggested that fraud that could throw an election was found or shown anywhere.

On the other hand, accusations made to the actions of the Democrat campaign committing fraud are very credible to me. I do believe they did it.

Because believing the side who mistook a landscaping business for a major hotel in giving a press conference, who came out with ridiculous stories that they even had to admit were lies, who farted throughout one so called trial and was still unable to produce any evidence whatsoever, are the ones telling the truth and you rather believe them....

Those people in Washington DC downtown also believed in fraud committed by Democrats. They opted for physical intervention, which according to the Constitution is allowed when dictatorship (or fraud to obtain political power) is made.

Except no fraud was committed.

The hypocrisy of your argument is quite, well, hysterical.

You dislike BLM for protesting injustice, but you don't have an issue with people trying to overthrow the results of an election because their side did not win and who tried to murder countless of people with the use of explosives, who expressed the desire to assassinate elected officials and the vice president..

I just give my opinion because I'm entitled to do so.

Of course.

Just as we are entitled to believe you're a right wing, moronic troll.

 

[Watcher]

Of course. Just as we are entitled to believe you're a right wing, moronic troll.

A great post, completly logical, well stated, incontrovertible. With that being said, we all need to recognize that "debating" fools like this is like trying to convince a Jim Jones follower not to swallow poison, or to convince a true believer that simply because the Bible says they can handle poisonous snakes that they should refrain from doing so. This movement is a cult, nothing more or less. Based on beliefs and feelings and populist propaganda, not on facts or rational reasoning.

There is a reason why authoritarian governments jail and disappear their intellectuals. Just like a free press and fair elections and the rule of law, intellectuals threaten the authoritarian's stronghold on the proles which is maintained through these simple-minded populist fairy tales. If you are in Europe, you understand this process very well, recalling the purge of intellectuals under the Fascists as well as under Stalin. Here in the USA the dumbed down citizenry does not have a clue. They are easy pickings for somthing like the Trump Cult, since their critical thinking skills have been eroded for decades.

Plus, about half of American citizens don't even exercise their right to vote. Can't be bothered, they will spend their time playing with their electronic trinkets as their democracy burns around them.

 

[pjdude1219]

Only quibble I would have with your statement is that after Trump hijacked the Republican party, it became the party of Trump (or Trumpist Party, or New American Fascist Party, or whatever you want to call it). The few traditional Republicans that are left are really the only thing keeping the Republic intact at this point, since the Democrats seem completely clueless about how to deal with the anarchist Right. They are living in la-la land like most of modern America, hoping that "it can't happen here" as they play away on their electronic toys and fill their minds with trivialities and address relatively meaningless "issues".

ABSOLUTELY the Right is doing everything in their power to rewrite history and to downplay January 6th, which as anyone with a brain understands, was simply a trial run for the next attempt at a legislative coup. To some extent they are succeeeding, because with right-wing media and the Internet it is easy to spin alternative "facts" to the masses that are yearning for more and better populist drivel.

The times they "are a changing" as Bob Dylan once said almost 60 years ago. Just not in the way that he had imagined.

i get where your coming from but your letting the republican party off the hook. trump could do what he did because of the choices of the republican party and the conservative movement. also the republican party has flirted with fascism for decades. members of the party tried to have a fascist coup during WW2. the principled republican party you think existed died a long ass time ago. the difference between trump and the"traditional" republicans is his willingness to say the quiet parts out loud. the end game is still the same.

 

[Watcher]

i get where your coming from but your letting the republican party off the hook. trump could do what he did because of the choices of the republican party and the conservative movement. also the republican party has flirted with fascism for decades. members of the party tried to have a fascist coup during WW2. the principled republican party you think existed died a long ass time ago. the difference between trump and the"traditional" republicans is his willingness to say the quiet parts out loud. the end game is still the same.

I'm not letting the Republican Party off the hook. You are referring to the Business Plot in 1933 against Franklin Roosevelt, but after that there is surely a long history of Republicans cozying up to fascism, from the House Committee on Un-American Activities through the John Birch Society, then the Nixon debacle and the emergence of the Christian Right, through Limbaugh and Fox News and the destruction of the Fairness Doctrine, right on up through the emergence of Donald Trump as the populist figurehead. There is absolutely no doubt that the Republicans are directly responsible for setting the stage for the attempted coup of 2020 and potentially a successful coup in 2024. Even so there are a few isolated Republican Legislators that clearly foresee the devastation that will follow, should that come to pass in 2024. The post-coup chaos and destruction will be unlike anything seen before in American history. Everyone will pay an enormous price, not just "the liberals".