Scientists discuss what ghosts might be made of

joepistole said:
It's amazing people really believe this stuff. Their methods are far from scientific. People should ask themselves why these shows don't use scientists to host their shows? If they were serious about the subject matter they would use scientists rather than actors.
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Quite true. I suppose it's because people who watch these shows - and believe what they see - just naturally aren't very logically-minded?
 
It's amazing people really believe this stuff. Their methods are far from scientific. People should ask themselves why these shows don't use scientists to host their shows? If they were serious about the subject matter they would use scientists rather than actors
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Probably because scientists are the most biased people in the world when it comes to the paranormal. And that's pretty much an article of faith on their part. They just know without even looking at evidence that the paranormal doesn't exist. It doesn't fit into their peer-supported materialistic worldview. And so the deafening silence from them when it comes to the mountains of evidence that are accumulating from paranormal societies all over the world. The guys who are doin the REAL empiricle research ARE doing science. And the evidence is all there for anyone willing to examine it without bias.
 
Magical Realist said:
Probably because scientists are the most biased people in the world when it comes to the paranormal. And that's pretty much an article of faith on their part. They just know without even looking at evidence that the paranormal doesn't exist. It doesn't fit into their peer-supported materialistic worldview. And so the deafening silence from them when it comes to the mountains of evidence that are accumulating from paranormal societies all over the world. The guys who are doin the REAL empiricle research ARE doing science. And the evidence is all there for anyone willing to examine it without bias.
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As Balerion said, "what evidence"? There certainly hasn't been any presented in this thread. Just two videos, the first was basically a discussion about what ghosts cannot be and the second was a group of paid TV performers who are no better (or believable) than any other TV show fiction performers.
 
Read-Only said:
As Balerion said, "what evidence"? There certainly hasn't been any presented in this thread. Just two videos, the first was basically a discussion about what ghosts cannot be and the second was a group of paid TV performers who are no better (or believable) than any other TV show fiction performers.
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Exactly. All evidence for the paranormal is de facto fakery because we all know there's this big conspiracy of people out there pulling one over on us. Men and women sitting all night long in abandoned buildings and graveyards over and over again just to perpetrate a hoax on everybody because that's just what fools like that do. God I'm glad I don't live in your cramped little world. I'd rather suffer the unpleasantries of acknowledging the existence of ghosts than indulge in the sort of smug elitism that says experiencers of the paranormal all over the world are all just self-deluding morons or lying con artists.
 
Magical Realist said:
Exactly. All evidence for the paranormal is de facto fakery because we all know there's this big conspiracy of people out there pulling one over on us. Men and women sitting all night long in abandoned buildings and graveyards over and over again just to perpetrate a hoax on everybody because that's just what fools like that do. God I'm glad I don't live in your cramped little world. I'd rather suffer the unpleasantries of acknowledging the existence of ghosts than indulge in the sort of smug elitism that says experiencers of the paranormal all over the world are all just self-deluding morons or lying con artists.
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Exactly is right! I much prefer living in the REAL world which, by the way, also happens to contain some people that are deluded, mentally impaired or have some other problem that prevents them from telling fact from fiction. Those who believe in ghosts are in the same general crowd who believe in Bigfoot, alien-made crop circles, and waste their money going to seances, palm readers and other soothsayers.

I actually feel sorry for many of them - those that cannot help themselves because of mental issues BUT feel no pity for the others because they chose to waste their lives on such nonsense.
 
Read-Only said:
Exactly is right! I much prefer living in the REAL world which, by the way, also happens to contain some people that are deluded, mentally impaired or have some other problem that prevents them from telling fact from fiction. Those who believe in ghosts are in the same general crowd who believe in Bigfoot, alien-made crop circles, and waste their money going to seances, palm readers and other soothsayers.

I actually feel sorry for many of them - those that cannot help themselves because of mental issues BUT feel no pity for the others because they chose to waste their lives on such nonsense.
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There's no question that the field of psychics and mediums is ridden with charlatans and crackpots. There's also alot of people who are fooled by such people. But that doesn't mean everyone's a fake. Paranormal investigators are trained to rule out natural explanations and glitches first before concluding paranormal causes. It's this scientific approach that gives their work credibility. It would take an extremely cynical mind to believe these groups are just making all this up for selfish reasons. It doesn't make sense. Why go thru so much trouble just to create an elaborate ruse?
 
Magical Realist said:
Exactly. All evidence for the paranormal is de facto fakery because we all know there's this big conspiracy of people out there pulling one over on us. Men and women sitting all night long in abandoned buildings and graveyards over and over again just to perpetrate a hoax on everybody because that's just what fools like that do. God I'm glad I don't live in your cramped little world. I'd rather suffer the unpleasantries of acknowledging the existence of ghosts than indulge in the sort of smug elitism that says experiencers of the paranormal all over the world are all just self-deluding morons or lying con artists.
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No, people are pretty good at deceiving themselves. No conspiracy or hoax needed. That is one of the many amazing features of being human. We are very good at deluding ourselves and others. Scientists do have biases. They are human. But scientists have a method to minimize the influence of their biases on their research. It’s called the scientific method. And the scientific method is certainly better than a bunch of actors roaming around in the middle of the night scaring themselves and their viewers and leaping to unfounded conclusions without seeking out alternative explanations.

What we have here is a phenomenon. Based on what I know, I would say there is probably no single answer that would explain all observed phenomena. There are probably several causes for the ghost phenomena. But to say that the cause is paranormal, you need evidence. I have yet to see such evidence. I have, like many others, have heard many amazing stories, but that is not evidence. They are just stories. I don’t rule out the possibility of ghosts, but as previously pointed out; there is no evidence to support the existence of ghosts. Based on what we do know of the universe, ghosts as classically described, are very unlikely. Until there is proof, until there is evidence, ghosts remain an unlikely explanation for the ghost phenomena.
 
joepistole said:
No, people are pretty good at deceiving themselves. No conspiracy or hoax needed. That is one of the many amazing features of being human. We are very good at deluding ourselves and others. Scientists do have biases. They are human. But scientists have a method to minimize the influence of their biases on their research. It’s called the scientific method. And the scientific method is certainly better than a bunch of actors roaming around in the middle of the night scaring themselves and their viewers and leaping to unfounded conclusions without seeking out alternative explanations.

What we have here is a phenomenon. Based on what I know, I would say there is probably no single answer that would explain all observed phenomena. There are probably several causes for the ghost phenomena. But to say that the cause is paranormal, you need evidence. I have yet to see such evidence. I have, like many others, have heard many amazing stories, but that is not evidence. They are just stories. I don’t rule out the possibility of ghosts, but as previously pointed out; there is no evidence to support the existence of ghosts. Based on what we do know of the universe, ghosts as classically described, are very unlikely. Until there is proof, until there is evidence, ghosts remain an unlikely explanation for the ghost phenomena.
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So just exactly what WOULD it take to prove to you personally the existence of paranormal phenomena? And remember, all it really takes is one recorded eyewitnessed demonstration of it. Just one! In fact we have probably hundreds of such demonstrations on video cameras and audio recorders. As well as the personal experiences of people all over the world for many centuries now. Account after account of unexplained voices, footsteps on empty floors, strange lights, people being scratched, and objects moving on their on. What else is needed to convince you?
 
Magical Realist said:
So just exactly what WOULD it take to prove to you personally the existence of paranormal phenomena? And remember, all it really takes is one recorded eyewitnessed demonstration of it. Just one! In fact we have probably hundreds of such demonstrations on video cameras and audio recorders. As well as the personal experiences of people all over the world for many centuries now. Account after account of unexplained voices, footsteps on empty floors, strange lights, people being scratched, and objects moving on their on. What else is needed to convince you?
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Something other hearsay like a scientific proof.
 
Magical Realist said:
There's no question that the field of psychics and mediums is ridden with charlatans and crackpots. There's also alot of people who are fooled by such people. But that doesn't mean everyone's a fake. Paranormal investigators are trained to rule out natural explanations and glitches first before concluding paranormal causes. It's this scientific approach that gives their work credibility. It would take an extremely cynical mind to believe these groups are just making all this up for selfish reasons. It doesn't make sense. Why go thru so much trouble just to create an elaborate ruse?
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Trained by whom? Who is qualified to "train" ghost hunters? I hope you do realize that the second video you posted is nothing more than a TV show. All the actors are PAID to act as though they are startled, frightened, etc. There's absolutely nothing real about the show.

So allow me to rephrase: Those people are PAID to create an elaborate ruse - that's why they do it. The only real ghost hunters in this world are just a few crackpots that have nothing to do but roam around with their "ghost detectors" and NO real scientific training. They are like a bunch of kiddies looking for a unicorn in their backyard.

And speaking of ghost detectors - there's no such thing. They use things like IR cameras (do ghosts give off heat???) and electromagnetic field detectors (are ghosts electromagnetic???). The truth is that even IF ghosts did exist, no one has any idea what they are made of so how could anyone have a real detector to detect them. Bluntly put, it's simply childish wishful thinking to put any credence in this kind of stuff. They'd be MUCH better off to go around with a geiger-counter looking for uranium ore deposits. ;)
 
joepistole said:
Something other hearsay like a scientific proof.
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Well, even scientific proof would be hearsay if it wasn't conducted by you personally. So what kind of scientific proof? Replicable interactions with spirit beings in a controlled laboratory setting? That's not gonna happen unless the spirits are willing.
 
Magical Realist said:
Well, even scientific proof would be hearsay if it wasn't conducted by you personally. So what kind of scientific proof? Replicable interactions with spirit beings in a controlled laboratory setting? That's not gonna happen unless the spirits are willing.
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Why not? Are ghosts afraid of controlled experiments and/or scientists?
 
Let me add another thought to this discussion: many people like the idea of ghosts being real simply because they LIKE it. That's the same reason many scary movies brought in megabucks. It's also why millions of people spend money on thrilling rides in amusement parks - they *enjoy* being scared.

That same line of reasoning also explains why someone (other than being paid to do so) would go back inside a house that's supposed to be haunted - they WANT to be scared by something.

So, along with the desire to be frightened is the desire to be entertained - and now we've come full circle.
 
Read-Only said:
Trained by whom? Who is qualified to "train" ghost hunters? I hope you do realize that the second video you posted is nothing more than a TV show. All the actors are PAID to act as though they are startled, frightened, etc. There's absolutely nothing real about the show.

So allow me to rephrase: Those people are PAID to create an elaborate ruse - that's why they do it. The only real ghost hunters in this world are just a few crackpots that have nothing to do but roam around with their "ghost detectors" and NO real scientific training. They are like a bunch of kiddies looking for a unicorn in their backyard.

And speaking of ghost detectors - there's no such thing. They use things like IR cameras (do ghosts give off heat???) and electromagnetic field detectors (are ghosts electromagnetic???). The truth is that even IF ghosts did exist, no one has any idea what they are made of so how could anyone have a real detector to detect them. Bluntly put, it's simply childish wishful thinking to put any credence in this kind of stuff. They'd be MUCH better off to go around with a geiger-counter looking for uranium ore deposits. ;)
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See now, if you were educated about paranormal research and phenomena you wouldn't be asking these questions. Ghosts do indeed give off heat. They also give off cold. And emf fields are associated with their presence. All this is well-known in this field of research. Who trained these guys? Who trains anyone in a new field of research? It's pretty much a shared pool of information and compared results at this point. And guess what?Nobody had any idea what gravity was made of when they were measuring it with scales for the past 6,000 odd years. You don't have to know what is causing a phenomena or even what its made of to measure it. But yes, ghosts are indeed measurable heatwise, and light-wise, and force-wise, and emf-wise, and acoustically. Does this make any sense? Not yet maybe. But it just so happens to be the case. Aquaint yourself with the field. It might surprise you how much we have learned about ghosts in the past 30 years.
 
Read-Only said:
Let me add another thought to this discussion: many people like the idea of ghosts being real simply because they LIKE it. That's the same reason many scary movies brought in megabucks. It's also why millions of people spend money on thrilling rides in amusement parks - they *enjoy* being scared.

That same line of reasoning also explains why someone (other than being paid to do so) would go back inside a house that's supposed to be haunted - they WANT to be scared by something.

So, along with the desire to be frightened is the desire to be entertained - and now we've come full circle.
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That may sound correct in theory. But remember a person who wants to be entertained by a horror movie knows it isn't real. A person who rides a roller coaster knows it is safe. If he for once thought that car was about to come off it's rail he'd experience REAL terror and never ride a coaster again. That's how it is when you encounter the really terrifying. It is NOT a pleasant experience. I've been to two haunted bed and breakfasts and I admit I had to leave the lights on all night. For paranormal investigators sitting in the dark in the morgue of an abandoned hospital is not exactly fun. Getting results IS though! Investigators appear to be willing to pay this price to get the evidence that truly excites them.
 
As for ghost hunting shows being fake, I just don't buy that. It's reality TV mind you, but reality TV isn't fake. Some of their lines might be scripted, but what happens on the series really IS happening. If it was faked it would have come out by now. People would talk. And we have nothing like that goin on with these shows that I know of.
 
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