Sandy Hook.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

As long as humans are social beings, there will never be a stateless society. There will always be a need to define common rules of behavior and enforce those rules.

Actually that's not quite correct;

Evidence of the earliest known city-states has been found in ancient Mesopotamia around 3700 BC, suggesting that the history of the state is in truth less than 6,000 years old; thus, for most of human prehistory the state did not exist. Since Homo sapiens has existed for about 200,000 years, it implies that state-organized societies have existed for at most 3% of the whole epoch of recognizably "human" history.

The anthropologist Robert L. Carneiro comments:

"For 99.8 percent of human history people lived exclusively in autonomous bands and villages. At the beginning of the Paleolithic [i.e. the stone age], the number of these autonomous political units must have been small, but by 1000 B.C. it had increased to some 600,000. Then supra-village aggregation began in earnest, and in barely three millennia the autonomous political units of the world dropped from 600,000 to 157. In the light of this trend, the continued decrease from 157 to 1 seems not only inescapable but close at hand"

Generally speaking, the archaeological evidence suggests that the state emerged out of stateless communities only when a fairly large population (at least tens of thousands of people) was more or less settled together in a particular territory, and practiced agriculture, rather than being nomadic hunters and gatherers. Indeed, one of the typical functions of the state is the defense of territory. Nevertheless, there are exceptions: Lawrence Krader for example describes the case of the Tatar state, a political authority arising among confederations of clans of nomadic or semi-nomadic herdsmen.

Characteristically the state functionaries (royal dynasties, soldiers, scribes, servants, administrators, lawyers, tax collectors, religious authorities etc.) are mainly not self-supporting, but rather materially supported and financed by taxes and tributes contributed by the rest of the working population. This assumes a sufficient level of labor-productivity per capita which at least makes possible a permanent surplus product (principally foodstuffs) appropriated by the state authority to sustain the activities of state functionaries. Such permanent surpluses were generally not produced on a significant scale in smaller tribal or clan societies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Stateless_Society.aspx

I agree there has always been a set of common rules and consequences but how those rules come about, how its decided upon is not necessarily dependent upon the existence of a State.

Happy belated New Year to you all!:wave:

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Since members are no longer allowed to delete their own bloody post;

Xxxxxxxxxx xxx xxxxxxx x xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxx xx xxxxxxxx xxx xxxxxxxx
Xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx? Xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx!!!

B. Law and force without freedom (despotism).

 

[Michael]

Since members are no longer allowed to delete their own bloody post;

Xxxxxxxxxx xxx xxxxxxx x xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxx xx xxxxxxxx xxx xxxxxxxx
Xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx? Xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx!!!

B. Law and force without freedom (despotism).

haha.... Happy New Year

 

[joepistole]

how about you try referencing your quotes michael

Because it would make is misrepresentations more obvious.

 

[joepistole]

We all know you LOVE and are so PROUD of the Central Bankers and think they have "Saved Us" - you've made that quite clear. Yes, if we hadn't bailed out the uber-rich, well, us poor little peons would be living in a Dark Age. The earth would have opened up and swallowed the roads, houses, power-stations, cars, factories, hell it would have stopped spinning. Yup, you made it very very VERY clear that in your mind, the CENTRAL BANKERS are the keepers of the Realm and Defenders of the Faith and ONLY they, and they alone, could have saved us... from, themselves.

Nice logic there Joe.

Back to your embellishments and straw man arguments I see.

Oh, but lets be clear on who the Central Bankers are looking out for, regardless of who us little Peons vote into CONgress. You see, the Federal Reserve has the power to dump GENERATIONAL amounts of debt onto the middle class laborer, his children, his grandchildren and use that debt to bail out not only US Banks, but so too foreign banks, foreign nations... Oh, and of course those "Corporations" you're so worried about. Yes, they got bailed out too.

Here's lets just go to the audit of the Federal Reserve itself: GOA

Summary here:

It's quite clear to see who's interest the Federal Reserve has at heart.

“Some people think that the Federal Reserve Banks are United States Government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers; foreign and domestic speculators and swindlers; and rich and predatory money lenders.”
– The Honorable Louis McFadden, U.S. House of Representative from Pennsylvania and Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee (1934)

No Joe, I specifically said no RULERS. Simple enough? Is that clear to you?

Hogwash! The GAO audit of the Fed, doesn’t say what you need and want it to say. The GAO made 7 relatively benign procedural recommendations which were adopted by the Fed and during the crisis the Fed recouped all of its loans. And as for the rest of that nonsense, it has been repeatedly and definitively disproven over the course of many years in this forum. But it doesn’t stop you from repeating the lies – you just continue to ignore those many inconvenient facts.

Let's review Kant AGAIN:

A. Law and freedom without force (anarchy).
B. Law and force without freedom (despotism).
C. Force without freedom and law (barbarism).
D. Force with freedom and law (republic).

See how these forms of Civil Organization are different? Any of this pushing past those 12 years of State-Run Government-Schooling?

Well it is certainly apparent my 12 years of primary education was certainly better than yours. And does college count? Last time I checked, those nuns at the College of Notre Dame were not employees of the state.

So, lets be clear, anarchy does not HAVE a dictator. That would be referred to as Despotism. See the difference? A good question is why are you trying to paint freedom and law without force as law without freedom and with force? These are two completely different forms of Civil Society Joe. This fear-mongering that Americans must worry about being FREE (yeah, that's really scary isn't it) .....and should therefor submit to the State Violence because (according to your logic, which there isn't any) if we were FREE we'd suddenly become the slaves of a "Dictator". As if magically overnight FREE people become enslaved to a Dictator.

Nope.... That's called Propaganda.

Over here in the REAL WORLD the GOVERNMENT is actually the one doing the drone bombing and murdering REAL American Children Joe. Got that? Not in some fantasy land of what might happen if....but right now, in the here and now. In this world. Our lovely State is jailing upwards of 80% of real live African American men for non-violently carrying some plant leaves in their pockets for their own personal use. Right here, in the actual REAL WORLD - our Government uses force against the Citizens to take upwards (in same cases) of up to 50%+ of their labor - - and all while BAILING OUT THE RICHEST AMERICANS and shoveling Generational Debt .......onto us, our children, our grandchildren and their children's children's shoulders.

So Joe, unlike your this Dictatorship that suddenly just pops into existence when people are FREE from State Violence, this shit is REALLY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW and being done to us BY a real live State Violence. And worse still, you seem to think that Might Makes Right. That because North was able to murder enough women and children in the South, and force the South to accept being in a forced Union, that this is somehow moral, and just and right and best of all possible worlds.

That's simply not true.

It's a good thing you weren't around to argue for or against abolition because it's quite clear which side of the fence you'd fall on: There never has and never will be a Slaveless society so lets just accept Slavery. See the problem with your logic? Where the fault in your assumption lies. Just because you can't imagine a Stateless free, peaceful society, does not mean that one can't exist. Further, there is no connection with being social and having a State. Humans (and earlier social hominids) existed for millions of years BEFORE there was a State. Being 'Social' is part of our genetic code. AND guess what, it MUST predate a State. Civilization (free-trade, property, law) that all comes BEFORE the State Joe. The State (or to be more specific, a group of non-productive humans) act parasitical ON the already existent Civilization. Which is why we see that as the State grows large, Civilization collapses.


So, you can now see you are clearly wrong as we lived on this planet as social primates, one of the great Apes, WITHOUT a State.

One more time: Anarchy means NO RULERS. It does NOT mean no RULES. Note the 'R" in the first sentence?

Secondly, Libertarian ideology isn't even about being Anarchic. It's, like you want, about being a Republic. All that Libertarians want is to SHRINK the size of the one institution, the one group of humans who can use force against us legally - The State. WHY is that so scary to you? To put it another way, reducing the VIOLENCE in society. Shrinking the cancer. Pretty much the Exact Opposite of what Progressive Socialists like you, Obama, and Kim Jung Il would like to see for society. You'll notice that as cancer get smaller, people get healthier. As the State shrinks from 100% Communist Progressive/Cancer "Social-Paradise" where people are so poor they're eating one another (North Korea) down even a little, to a smaller size (Ex: China) that society *gasp* (just like shrinking any other parasitic cancer) society becomes a little bit healthier. Just imagine a world where there was no parasitical cancer. How healthy would life be there?

And, here you go again. Anarchy means NO RULERS. It does not mean NO RULES.

Example: When you walk into a Privately Owned Mall. If you should break the rules (like run around with your shirt and pants off shitting and pissing on the floor) the Private Mall Security escort you to the door and out you go. See how it works? There ARE rules. Just no rulers. You are FREE not to go to the mall. You are FREE to go somewhere else. You are FREE to try and create your own mall where shitting on the floor is the norm. It's called the free-market Joe. Try it. What you SHOULD NOT be free to do is to use the force of the vote, to make everyone else live their lives with you shitting and pissing on their floors. It doesn't matter if you've convinced 51% of everyone else that this is a great thing. The other 49% of us do NOT want it.

No, that's YOUR question. It's based on an unsound illogical assertion. As is now clear to you. Maybe a better question is how to you come to adore State-violence so much? Did it have anything to do with the 12 years of State-Run, Government-Regulated Public School-Farms the pump out hundreds of thousands of little State-bots year in and year out? Many of whom can't even read. So, from this POV the question thus becomes: How many generations of children (from the time of Joe) will we have to raise with love and logic, before reaching for the Violence of the State is NOT seen as the "solution" (but seen as repugnant) and instead win-win free trading with Law and Private Property rights take center stage?

*News Flash*
With the help of the State, and your beloved Central Bank, the wealthiest ARE BECOMING MORE POWERFUL AND MORE WEALTHY. Right now, under Obama, we have BIGGER than To Big To Fail Banks. Do you understand this!?!?!? Any of this making it past the half century of State propaganda?

You seem to think that the State is this magical place where no Greedy Power-Hungry Citizen would ever be attracted to. When exactly the OPPOSITE IS TRUE. The State is the ONE organization in society where we LEGALLY allow humans to Initiate force against other Citizens. The Government is a Sociopaths wet-dream. Which is why so many of them are so eager to join up. And is WHY we need to keep it as small as is possible.

Exactly the opposite of what you "Social Progressives" desire. Ever think that maybe YOU are the sociopath? I mean, you made it clear that "Lincoln settled the question". The murder and shooting other humans "settles questions". That's the way Sociopaths think Joe. You made it clear you want more Government Violence. You want it much BIGGER. Grow the Cancer! We see it time and time again how Progressives, like any other Sociopath, use the levers of State Violence to coerce those around them. This is a sickness Joe. Using FORCE is sick in the head Joe. Do you understand that?! I think not. I find Progressives are the WORSE. We have people right here arguing the Farmer is the one taking! The FARMER!?! You "Progressives" are the one holding the GUN in the face of the Laborer and stealing their money and yet time and time again you say "It's owed to you". What next? You want his daughters too? Maybe his kidney? YOU are the ones that decided no one should own Private Property any longer, no, we can instead RENT it from the State - for the rest of our lives. And if we dare make it nicer, we can pay more for it. And the best argument you'll hear is this: You use the roads! At the end of the day this is your pitiful argument for why State Violence is just. How pathetic.

It's called insanity Joe. You like to hide behind Nationalism. Patriotism. Maybe even Religion. But, at the end of the day: Violence is Violence.


Tell that to the North Koreans. Joe, you literally live in la la land. We HAD a small central government and no central bank for most of the first half of American history. That includes us, up in the North. That did not practice STATE sanctioned Human Slavery. WE were the ones who ushered in the American Industrial Revolution. Do you UNDERSTAND ANY OF US HISTORY? This was the most prosperous period in US HISTORY!

No, those are instances in history Joe. They are events. You are cherry picking a few, reinterpreting them, and then confabulating a story in your head that matches with your preconceived notion that a powerful Central Government is good. Did you miss the fact that hundreds of MILLIONS of humans have been murdered by Central Governments over the course of the 20th century? The tens of millions of Chinese murdered? The tens of millions of Russians murdered. All by powerful Central Governments. That the USA is occupying and murdering people right now, as we breath?

You think it was right that Lincoln murdered upwards to 800,000 Americans? You think that this is a GOOD thing?

That's sick Joe. Sick in the head. All you are saying is: Might Makes Right. At the end of the Day, THAT is your argument.

Are you trying to say the US Military isn't murdering children Joe? How about when they fire bomb cities filled with women and children? How about when Obama orders drone strikes on groups of men, killing any women and children right along with them. Oh yeah, I forgot, those are just "collateral damage" for you Progressive Welfare Queens and your Warfare Chickenhawk mates.

One more time Joe, see if it sticks, no RULERS. NOT no RULES.

Just because you can't envision a world without State Violence to enforce the Law doesn't mean it can't or even doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, there's no World Government and yet people do business all the time. Because guess what Joe? Unlike in your paranoid world, in the real world, most people WANT to develop good business relations and maintain a good social status to continue doing business. Secondly, there'd still be courts. Thirdly, even if you can't get your mind wrapped around Anarchy, that's fine, we'll rack that up to a damaged childhood and 12 years of State propaganda. But the FACT is we had a small government and rule of law when the Federal Government was less than 5% GDP. It's now blowing out to over 20% and soon to be 25% GDP. AND we both know Government's don't shrink, they grow - just like any other cancer.

Lastly, issues can and should be handled locally. As it is, the rich BUY OFF politicians who insert exception after exception so that they CAN exploit and pollute the so-called 'Commons'.

If it were really a competition, then the State wouldn't need to shove a gun in the face of American Citizens Joe.
Joe, life is getting worse. Do you understand this? I don't think you do. It was normal for a family of five to survive in middle class on a single income. Now, even though we've seen massive gains in productivity, a family of three MIGHT make it into the middle class if BOTH parents work full time.

Explain this to us Joe.

That is fecal dump Michael, a bunch of incoherent imaginings, ravings, lies and illogical arguments. The facts are Michael a stateless society does not eliminate power or the abuse of power. If anything, it foments it. That is the lesson of history. And you don’t have to look that far to see it in modern history. In my last post I gave you several examples of it here in the US – which you promptly ignored as you do with all facts and reason that you find inconsistent with your beliefs.

 

[iceaura]

You were wrong about North Korean taxes being high. They are low.
Are you smoking crack? The North Koreans are taxed to DEATH. Literally to DEATH.

Their tax rates, however, are low - have been since the early 70s. The consequences of low taxes in North Korea are not exactly what you seem to think they should be, but there's nothing strange about that.

You want to tax the winners to pay for the 'set up'? Who the hell do you think creates it in the first place? What? Like cables? Satellites? Rail-lines?

Yep - like those things, all set up by government, and impossible without government investment and backing. You can add roads in there, and ports, and legal systems, and various regulatory bodies for stuff like weights and measures, and so forth and so on. Who should pay for all that if not the people who used it to get filthy rich?

When the "Government" does pay for something it's over budget and half arsed.

In my town we've recently seen three sports stadiums, a couple of port and commerce constructions, some light rail, a few schools, and quite a few bridge and highway projects come in under budget and perfectly well built.

And that's the thing, we haven't had small government since the late 1800s.

And while we had that wonderful small government we had chattel slavery and racial terrorism, continual war and violence both foreign and domestic, plagues and epidemics, massive destruction of the environment and public resources. Free market consequences.

We also had 40 years of frequent bank panics and runs, causing much hardship, partly because we had done away with our central bank - such as the one chartered by George Washington, and its replacement.

We made the mistake of filling the void with a private bank, instead of a government entity beholden to the voting public rather than to its investors and fellow capitalists. We've paid the price for that - with recession under Volcker, deregulated financial system bubbles under Reagan and W, and so forth.

 

[pjdude1219]

In my town we've recently seen three sports stadiums, a couple of port and commerce constructions, some light rail, a few schools, and quite a few bridge and highway projects come in under budget and perfectly well built.

true that. I read an article some where that stated that government projects are actually more effcient than the free market. the reason for the difference is that the government grossly understates costs and that accounts for the overruns.

 

[Michael]

Their tax rates, however, are low - have been since the early 70s. The consequences of low taxes in North Korea are not exactly what you seem to think they should be, but there's nothing strange about that.

Let me see if I have you correct. The problem with North Korea isn't Social Communism, it's that the people of North Korea (who earn maybe $12 dollars a week) aren't PAYING ENOUGH TAX TO THE STATE.

Are you for real?

And they DO pay tax. They pay fees every single aspect of their lives. They want to run a noodle stall, they pay a fee to the government. THAT IS A TAX. It's a Social Progressives WET-DREAM where the 'Rich' no longer exist (unless, like here, they work for the government).

We made the mistake of filling the void with a private bank, instead of a government entity beholden to the voting public rather than to its investors and fellow capitalists. We've paid the price for that - with recession under Volcker, deregulated financial system bubbles under Reagan and W, and so forth.

Are you kidding me!?!? What planet do you live on?!!??

GREENSPAN deregulated the banks under the direction of President William Clinton.





What is it exactly you think "The Rich" do with their 'Money'? It's either (A) spent when they seek gratification (B) saved and acts as Capital investment via a bank or other lending institution of (C) directly invested in their corporations - you know, the ones everyone wants a job at because the 12 years of Government Education has left them with only the skills to be a cog.

 

[Michael]

true that. I read an article some where that stated that government projects are actually more effcient than the free market. the reason for the difference is that the government grossly understates costs and that accounts for the overruns.

Oh, good Gods. Have you EVER spent ANY TIME with anyone who works in the Government? Jesus, surely you've had to stand in line to get a licence renewed? You know, where you have a bunch of copies of bullshit paperwork and you take a number and wait. Compare that with signing a iPhone contract where THEY COME TO YOU.

See the difference in service?

I've worked in government institutions that were built FACING THE WRONG DIRECTION. Yeah, you got that right. The research institute, the actual building was facing in the wrong direction. About 10 minutes walk was ANOTHER building built facing the wrong direction. Have you ever heard of a private home owner building their house in the wrong direction? Or a private business owner? No, it never happens. It happens ALL THE TIME with the government.

BIG DIG

The Big Dig was the most expensive highway project in the U.S. and was plagued by escalating costs, scheduling overruns, leaks, design flaws, charges of poor execution and use of substandard materials, criminal arrests, and even one death. The project was scheduled to be completed in 1998 at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006). The project was not completed, however, until December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars) as of 2006. The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038. As a result of the deaths, leaks, and other design flaws, the consortium that oversaw the project agreed to pay $407 million in restitution, and several smaller companies agreed to pay a combined sum of approximately $51 million.

 

[iceaura]

Oh, good Gods. Have you EVER spent ANY TIME with anyone who works in the Government? Jesus, surely you've had to stand in line to get a licence renewed? You know, where you have a bunch of copies of bullshit paperwork and you take a number and wait. Compare that with signing a iPhone contract where THEY COME TO YOU.

My dealings with the US Post Office, the State DMV, The State DNR, the Federal Passport office, the local County line and road crews, City water crews, the local Library in every place I've lived, and a handful of others over the years,

even the IRS and the local State University, large bureaucracies ill fitted with checks and balances or even minimal accountability,

have been generally more efficient, thorough, quick, reliable, competent, cheap, and free of subterfuge or scam,

than most comparable institutions in the private sector. My dealings with the local cable company and internet provider a couple of different phone companies, package delivery firms, private line and tree crews, large corporate bookstores, insurance companies of various kinds, banks and S&Ls and the like, have quite often required long and frustrating battles with recalcitrant bureaucracies, arbitrary hoops and rules, even downright fraud and theft difficult and time consuming to make right.

Medicare's bureaucratic overhead has been holding steady for years at around 4%. You'll have to search to find a private health insurance firm less than double that.

The local library orders me hardcover books in a couple of minutes, and never has any problem quickly determining availability, and costs me a few dollars in taxes once a year. Comparably sized bookstores often don't even know what they have on their poorly organized shelves, take a long time to figure out if they can get it (while I stand around watching them mouse and tap and frown at their software), have more complex forms to fill out, and charge separate high prices for each provision of such "service".

It takes me about fifteen minutes every four years to renew my driver's license - the only paperwork I bring is my current license and commercial driver's medical card, which I carry in my wallet anyway. Five minutes of that is the eye test. It costs less than forty dollars (even with surcharges for my endorsements) and puts me on any public road any time I want anywhere in the US driving any vehicle I'm rated for another four years no questions asked.

Contrast that with the local auto parts store, where I stand in line for my turn at watching them deal with their software and root through the shelves, total time up to half an hour, or with the phone & cable corporations - I've seen forty dollar charges for talking too much per month, and spent hours spread over weeks - literally - straightening out billing problems with semi-fluent bureaucratic functionaries on the other side of the planet. A complete description of the privileges I have purchased from the DMV is printed on a wallet card that doubles as an ID, for the one. It's several pages of legalese I still haven't completely figured out for the other (I found the cable stations I was permitted to watch by trial and error, mostly).

 

[Asguard]

at least when I deal with the government I don't get "we will be at your place sometime on x day, we can't tell you when so don't make any plans, you will just have to sit around all day waiting till we get to you". Thank you oven repair man

 

[billvon]

Oh, good Gods. Have you EVER spent ANY TIME with anyone who works in the Government?

Yes. Worked with a bunch of people from NASA. Brilliant guys. My contacts with the DMV, state licensing boards, the FAA etc have been - adequate. They did their jobs and it didn't take that long.

Compare that to a recent attempt to get some landscaping done. Four companies, two months and 3 hours of my time later - nothing. No returned calls, inexplicably expensive quotes, last minute excuses ("truck broke down.")

Lesson here - some people are efficient and hardworking, some are complete losers. Most people are somewhere in between. These qualities, not whether they are private or government, determine how your interaction with them will go.

There is one exception here that's pretty consistent. People who often commit infractions regularly have bad experiences with cops (government employees.) Since that's basically their job I tend to not count them.

Jesus, surely you've had to stand in line to get a licence renewed? You know, where you have a bunch of copies of bullshit paperwork and you take a number and wait. Compare that with signing a iPhone contract where THEY COME TO YOU.

I wait far longer in the Verizon store here than in our DMV. You make an appointment, go in - and you're out 15 minutes later. I've waited 15 minutes in a Verizon store, followed by 15 minutes of him trying to find phones and accessories, capped off by 15 minutes of him trying to sell me cases, chargers, service plans, screen protectors, headsets, memory cards, video services etc.

I've worked in government institutions that were built FACING THE WRONG DIRECTION. Yeah, you got that right. The research institute, the actual building was facing in the wrong direction. About 10 minutes walk was ANOTHER building built facing the wrong direction. Have you ever heard of a private home owner building their house in the wrong direction? Or a private business owner?

Yep. During a recent SEIA conference an inspector showed his favorite botched solar installations, all done by private companies. Three faced north on steep roofs. One was north of a tall, wide chimney. One was UNDER ANOTHER ROOF.

 

[iceaura]

Let me see if I have you correct.

Of course not. You can't even get simple physical facts right.

The problem with North Korea isn't Social Communism, it's that the people of North Korea (who earn maybe $12 dollars a week) aren't PAYING ENOUGH TAX TO THE STATE.

No, I said nothing about what the problem with North Korea is. What I said was that its tax rates were low. They are. Their income tax rate, for example, is zero - something you have recommended. You're the one looking for reasons why NK is a shithole, and finding the same fantasy of high taxes that provides you with your explanations for every bad everywhere.

We made the mistake of filling the void with a private bank, instead of a government entity beholden to the voting public rather than to its investors and fellow capitalists. We've paid the price for that - with recession under Volcker, deregulated financial system bubbles under Reagan and W, and so forth.
Are you kidding me!?!? What planet do you live on?!!??

GREENSPAN deregulated the banks under the direction of President William Clinton.

I live on the planet where Reagan deregulated the S&Ls (in fact, both by pushed law and executive policy) and appointed Greenspan, and Congress (Phil Gramm in particular) legislatively deregulated the rest of the banking system in Clinton's last year of tenure (after impeachment), leaving the executive execution of deregulation, the actual withdrawal of regulators and enforcement of what law was left (the executive policy) to be implemented by W, who promptly did so - setting up the really big bubble that crashed the entire financial system and the US economy with it.

Reagan's and W's: the worst two crashes of the US financial system since the last time a Republican "free market" devotee took his hands off the wheel and let the freemarket boys run their banks however they wanted to.

Hence we record the damaging financial bubbles under Reagan and W, as mentioned - Clinton's tech stock bubble being not only comparatively harmless, and not his doing, but also not primarily a banking/financial system problem or large taxpayer expense.

 

[Michael]

My dealings with the US Post Office, the State DMV, The State DNR, the Federal Passport office, the local County line and road crews, City water crews, the local Library in every place I've lived, and a handful of others over the years,

even the IRS and the local State University, large bureaucracies ill fitted with checks and balances or even minimal accountability,

have been generally more efficient, thorough, quick, reliable, competent, cheap, and free of subterfuge or scam,

than most comparable institutions in the private sector. My dealings with the local cable company and internet provider a couple of different phone companies, package delivery firms, private line and tree crews, large corporate bookstores, insurance companies of various kinds, banks and S&Ls and the like, have quite often required long and frustrating battles with recalcitrant bureaucracies, arbitrary hoops and rules, even downright fraud and theft difficult and time consuming to make right.

Medicare's bureaucratic overhead has been holding steady for years at around 4%. You'll have to search to find a private health insurance firm less than double that.

The local library orders me hardcover books in a couple of minutes, and never has any problem quickly determining availability, and costs me a few dollars in taxes once a year. Comparably sized bookstores often don't even know what they have on their poorly organized shelves, take a long time to figure out if they can get it (while I stand around watching them mouse and tap and frown at their software), have more complex forms to fill out, and charge separate high prices for each provision of such "service".

It takes me about fifteen minutes every four years to renew my driver's license - the only paperwork I bring is my current license and commercial driver's medical card, which I carry in my wallet anyway. Five minutes of that is the eye test. It costs less than forty dollars (even with surcharges for my endorsements) and puts me on any public road any time I want anywhere in the US driving any vehicle I'm rated for another four years no questions asked.

Contrast that with the local auto parts store, where I stand in line for my turn at watching them deal with their software and root through the shelves, total time up to half an hour, or with the phone & cable corporations - I've seen forty dollar charges for talking too much per month, and spent hours spread over weeks - literally - straightening out billing problems with semi-fluent bureaucratic functionaries on the other side of the planet. A complete description of the privileges I have purchased from the DMV is printed on a wallet card that doubles as an ID, for the one. It's several pages of legalese I still haven't completely figured out for the other (I found the cable stations I was permitted to watch by trial and error, mostly).

Firstly, the US government didn't pass the Paperwork Reduction Act for the fun of it. Of course, this was back in the 80s, but, you get the point. We both know when you go to the DMV or immigration, you will be the one taking a number and waiting in line.

Which is interesting isn't it? Why should you have to PAY for a service when you're already coughing up 20-50% of your labor as tax to 'pay for public services'?


Secondly, ANY large institution can become a bureaucratic mess - public or private. The great thing with private, in the traditional Capitalistic system, was they went bust.
As an example, look Microsoft. I remember when everyone was so worried that M$ was going to 'take over the world'. They wanted the company broken up and they wanted all these Laws passed to restrict trade. It didn't matter. M$ didn't 'take over the world', their products go from crap to shit to diarrhea with each iteration: hello, Windows 8. As a matter of fact, the only reason M$ was so large was BECAUSE of government, in the form of IP and TM and Copyright. Without those State run monopolies M$ would either (A) be gone or (B) be making a much better product. The CEO of Toyoda warned last year that right now, when the company was on top, this is the time it IS sewing the seeds of it's own destruction and these will grow to take down the company in the future.

That's a systems problem. And the FREE MARKET is the best solution with dealing with it. But, what happens here in the real world, is the Government is used by companies AGAINST you. Everything from big banks getting bailed out for committing fraud, to GM getting bailed out for noncompetitive incompetence, to the AMA rigging the medical market with licence restrictions.

That's a great example. Did you know a world renown cardiac surgeon in the USA, that happens to be a DO and not an MD, would NEVER be allowed to practice in AU because DOs can't practice medicine in AU. It's completely insane. Well, not really. It's a rigged game to ensure monopoly and with monopoly comes price gouging. The very same institution (the government) you think is saving you FROM the big scary free-market, is actually rigging the game against you, so that now, there is no free-market.


Thirdly, just stop and think for one minute. We both know that the government is the one and only institution that can initiate force against a free citizen. You don't think that's going to draw criminals like flies to shit? REALLY? You do know that the USA is bombing and killing women and children as we speak. You do know Obama did nothing but expand his powers under the Patriot Act. He personally is responcible for the murder of a teenage US Citizen who was killed in Yemen with a drone strike. That is a FACT and it is SICK. SICK. It's a mental illness. These sociopaths spin you some bullshit and you just eat it and eat it and eat it. The TBTF Banks are larger. No one is prosecuted. The POTUS isn't doing anything about that - he's in on it. The rich are getting richer. Those are facts. The ONLY thing that can prevent this is to shrink this cancer called Government and to take back the power of the purse and return it to the people.


Voltaire
[François Marie Arouet] (1694-1778)
Date: 1729
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value ---- zero.

Here's an interesting, possible, quote from Josiah Charles Stamp, Direct of the BOE and then second richest man in England (1920s)

Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take away from them the power to create money and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money.





Don't worry iceaura, these last 5 years were easily to swallow, the next 20 should taste as good. Oh, and imagine - if you think Obama was a demagogue and you didn't mind when he gathered even MORE power under the Patriot Act, just wait until the GOP elects their next president. Because it will happen. You think it's great to have a BIG powerful Central Government. You just wait until we have one run by a real Demagogue. Because this is what's going to happen. I've made the moral argument time and time again. To no avail. You think it's just wonderful to use force against those around you when it's to your benefit - wait until the shoe is on the other foot. Because, I can see now that this is what it's going to take before you stop and think, oh, I guess using force is wrong. Stealing is wrong. But, of course, by then, it'll be too late. It IS too late. There is no turning this nation around, the people have no moral compass, stealing is now the accepted norm, murdering children on the orders of the POTUS doesn't even warrant an eye-blink let alone a tear. We're sailing into your beloved Progressive Paradise, just you wait until a GOP as at the helm. Karma, so I heard, is a Bitch.


Think back to your arguments and your love of big government when the GOP have the White House and the CONgress.

 

[Michael]

Yes. Worked with a bunch of people from NASA. Brilliant guys. My contacts with the DMV, state licensing boards, the FAA etc have been - adequate. They did their jobs and it didn't take that long.

Compare that to a recent attempt to get some landscaping done. Four companies, two months and 3 hours of my time later - nothing. No returned calls, inexplicably expensive quotes, last minute excuses ("truck broke down.")

Lesson here - some people are efficient and hardworking, some are complete losers. Most people are somewhere in between. These qualities, not whether they are private or government, determine how your interaction with them will go.

There is one exception here that's pretty consistent. People who often commit infractions regularly have bad experiences with cops (government employees.) Since that's basically their job I tend to not count them.



I wait far longer in the Verizon store here than in our DMV. You make an appointment, go in - and you're out 15 minutes later. I've waited 15 minutes in a Verizon store, followed by 15 minutes of him trying to find phones and accessories, capped off by 15 minutes of him trying to sell me cases, chargers, service plans, screen protectors, headsets, memory cards, video services etc.



Yep. During a recent SEIA conference an inspector showed his favorite botched solar installations, all done by private companies. Three faced north on steep roofs. One was north of a tall, wide chimney. One was UNDER ANOTHER ROOF.

Your experience with, say Verizon, is part of the market (although this isn't a free-market, it's a regulated market run by a fascist government). If you don't like the way things are done, then you take your business elsewhere. See how nice that is? That way either Verizon lifts their game, offers you something to get you to come back, or goes broke. This can't happen when dealing with the public services. NASA is notorious for blowing out budget. As are ALL government run institutions. Only, unlike in the phone business, there's hardly any room for private groups of people to go head to head with NASA.

I fail to see what you don't get here? We went to the moon..... and then what? NOTHING. I personally see this as a stamp of proof and evidence of the shit service that is Government. In a true free-market we'd already be colonizing Mars. Humans would have greatly extended our life spans. Perhaps there'd be no aging, no cancer, who knows.... but, in a free-market life would be much much better. That's why you have a super computer in your pocket for $200 with which you can speak to anyone via video anywhere in the world. Versus paying $2500 to have your visa paperwork looked at by some douche in the government to determine if you, a human, are allowed to enter the commons of this other place on earth. I personally find it disgusting how Nationalism warps people's minds and the horrid things they do in the name of Nation and God.


The FREE market gave us electricity. Roads were the invention of the FREE market before the State took them over. Civilization arose BEFORE the State. The State is a parasite that feeds off the productive labor of the private free-trade made between citizens. It started with Priests and now all those parasites have become our public service. The same people who'd be a Bishop 1000 years ago, is now a Senator. There's really not much difference between the two. Just parasites feeding off the productivity of those who produce, while spinning scary stories and starting wars to keep anyone distracted and confused and ignorant. Then it was the Devil and the Muslims. Now it's, Terrorists.... who happen to coincidentally be Muslims.

We are right now, as we speak, blowing through tens of TRILLIONS of dollars on the military, murdering women and children, all so that our Fascist Government and their CRONY Capitalistic companies can STEAL, not free-trade, but steal the resources form the middle east and Africa. That is a fact. Think on that.

 

[Michael]

at least when I deal with the government I don't get "we will be at your place sometime on x day, we can't tell you when so don't make any plans, you will just have to sit around all day waiting till we get to you". Thank you oven repair man

Again, that Oven Repair man has a State licence and is legally the ONLY person who can repair your oven. In a free market you'd have your choice, do you want someone with a State licence or not. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Perhaps a trade union certification. Or perhaps your home insurance. Or perhaps the company you bought the stove from would have their own people. It's all be UP TO YOU. In this way, over time, those that provide the best service to money peculate to the top and those that don't, don't. This IS the whole reason why there are Licences. It's to PREVENT competition so that you're stuck having to deal with someone who may or may not show up anytime between 8am and 5pm and do a half-arsed job when he does show up.

I had been living in AU renting a Townhouse for years when a plumber came by to inspect something. He told me I had to pull this plug to refill the hot water tank every few months. I told him, no I don't. He was explicit that YES I DO or the tank will run dry and 'burn up'.... maybe taking the house with it. I told him: I've been using the hot water in this house for 3 years and have NEVER pulled that plug to fill the water tank. He refused to believe me. SO, that was that. He obviously had no idea about modern water tanks.... modern being anything made post-1950s apparently. Now, how would this fellow fair in a TRUE free-market? We'll never know, because we don't live in a free market. BUT, I can tell you how he's doing in the State-run unfree regulated-market. He's making money hand over fist. This guy pulls in more than your average physician.


I was just at a Government agency and the person, the 'expert' blatantly told me something completely false. It's was 100% false. Now, I'm not blaming him, as he obviously just doesn't know his job that well. But, given he was the upper-floor 'expert' you'd think he would. When I questioned him, he took offense and repeated this false statement to me TWO more times. I simply said OK and got what I needed and left. Of course, he had NO idea what he was talking about. A 5 minute google search showed me, on the .gov website where he was wrong.

Again, I understand that there's a learning curve and I have no idea how long he'd been in the job. But, here's the thing. He'll be paid the exact same amount as someone next to him who DOES take the time to understand his job. This means there's a DISINCENTIVE for that person to learn and do their best. Why bother if you're not going to be rewarded for your extra effort. It's why a lot of people in the government just leave after a few years as they can't stand it any longer. Leaving the worse to progress up the ladder. Competition is there to REWARD those that try hard, work hard and are clever. This doesn't exist in government. Government tries to re-create this by box-ticking and meeting 'goals' but because there's no free-market this are quickly discovered and people work the system to advance. I've seen it time and time again.

It's a Systems Problem.

I personally know a few people in government that specifically told me they took the job for the money, the job security, the great benefits and they don't have to do much work.


Try replacing the word "Government" with "monopolistic group of non-productive people" and then think about your statements once again. Because "Government" doesn't mean anything. At the end of the day there's just people. Groups of people. That's it. I'm afraid when you use "Government" you're using it the way the religious use "Church". As if "The Church" cares for people. The "Government" cares for people. The "Government" is trying to help us. Um, no. "The Government" is meaningless. Individual people "help" one another. Not "The X".

 

[Michael]

And what does this have to do with Sandy Hook? It's because IMO we have to think about the bigger picture. Why is it that, say, Switzerland has plenty of gun, and low crime? Why is it that living in Australia, a young woman is much more at risk to being the victim of a violent attack compared with the USA? Particularly of being raped as a child. Why is it the there's such high rates of violence in the inner cities where there's the greatest concentration of "Government Services"?


Think about this point. Women on welfare are given MORE money IF their children can be diagnosed as having a disability and be put on disability. Of course, this seems to make sense - right? I mean, if your child is handicapped, then you'll probably need a bit more help. So? Did you know that children diagnosed with ADHD and put on selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) bring in more money to their parents than those that aren't. AND, my goodness, if the child was 'diagnosed' as having ADHD by a "Professional" then they MUST have ADHD. And gee, the healthcare professional just so happens to get these nice sweetheart deals from the pharmaceutical if they prescribe their brand of SSRI. Oh, and the government just so happens to pay for these SSRI if it's for children.


This isn't the free-market. It's a warped regulated State run fascism market. Every now and again, one of these kids goes on a rampage killing a bunch of their peers at school.


So, lets stop and think about public school. While we think school is normal, it isn't. Learning doesn't happen grade-wise. We have Grades 1-12 because it's easier to manage, but that has NOTHING at all to do with learning. When public schools began summers were spent bringing in the crops. It's completely asinine we STILL have summers off and this has been shown to greatly harm retention as many children forget what they learned in this artificial grade system. Is it normal to have 1 adult to 30 children? NO! What has been the norm for millennial is 4 adults to 1 child. Peer pressure is an artifact of this completely messed up system. Peer pressure didn't exist until relatively recently. Public schools themselves are modeled on the Prussian school system, which itself was modeled on the military, all to create workers for State-run factory's 100 years ago. AND here we are, still doing the exact same educational model 100 years later.

People normalize to the way things are done, particularly if exposed to they system as children - that's not the same as being normal.


It's NOT normal for children to be raised by strangers in day supervision facilities. That simply is NOT NORMAL. We didn't evolve to live like this. Children are meant to be held and loved ALL DAY LONG by their mothers. Not for a few hours at the end of the day and on weekends. ALL DAY LONG. We now have children being put into day supervision as young as SIX WEEKS! THAT IS INSANE!

IN-SANE


Add to this all sorts of messed up ideas around parenting - like hitting children as a means of 'teaching them'. And the horror that has become our 'Economy', where selling Bonds on these very children - the ones being shoved into daycare at age 6 weeks (all so we can consume more now, something that would have sickened Americans 100 years ago) is now the norm. It's a wonder these horrible incidences don't happen more often and a testament to the resiliency of family in the face of such State-backed violence, and onslaught against the family. The State is working very very hard to destroy what's left of the family. It has convinced you that YOU are soo soo ooooh sooo lucky to live in the USA or AU or other "Nation States" because YOU get to move and work somewhere else away from your community. You and your wife get to work fulltime and maybe own a small house and have maybe, if you're in your mid-40s, a child. A child you'll put into daycare, public school and shove out into this wonderful world to work off the Bonds sold on him or her.

Lovely.........

 

[billvon]

The State is working very very hard to destroy what's left of the family. It has convinced you that YOU are soo soo ooooh sooo lucky to live in the USA or AU or other "Nation States" because YOU get to move and work somewhere else away from your community. You and your wife get to work fulltime and maybe own a small house and have maybe, if you're in your mid-40s, a child. A child you'll put into daycare, public school and shove out into this wonderful world to work off the Bonds sold on him or her.

Hmm. None of that happened to us. Perhaps it's due to the government-backed student loans we both got; these allowed us to get enough education that we both don't need to work fulltime, or live in a small house, or move away from our community, or put our child in daycare.

But if you don't want such loans, or an education, or whatever, I fully support your right as an Anti-mumblemumble to work fulltime, live in a cruddy house, move away from where you want to live and put your kids in daycare.

 

[Asguard]

Again, that Oven Repair man has a State licence and is legally the ONLY person who can repair your oven. In a free market you'd have your choice, do you want someone with a State licence or not. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Perhaps a trade union certification. Or perhaps your home insurance. Or perhaps the company you bought the stove from would have their own people. It's all be UP TO YOU. In this way, over time, those that provide the best service to money peculate to the top and those that don't, don't. This IS the whole reason why there are Licences. It's to PREVENT competition so that you're stuck having to deal with someone who may or may not show up anytime between 8am and 5pm and do a half-arsed job when he does show up.

I had been living in AU renting a Townhouse for years when a plumber came by to inspect something. He told me I had to pull this plug to refill the hot water tank every few months. I told him, no I don't. He was explicit that YES I DO or the tank will run dry and 'burn up'.... maybe taking the house with it. I told him: I've been using the hot water in this house for 3 years and have NEVER pulled that plug to fill the water tank. He refused to believe me. SO, that was that. He obviously had no idea about modern water tanks.... modern being anything made post-1950s apparently. Now, how would this fellow fair in a TRUE free-market? We'll never know, because we don't live in a free market. BUT, I can tell you how he's doing in the State-run unfree regulated-market. He's making money hand over fist. This guy pulls in more than your average physician.


I was just at a Government agency and the person, the 'expert' blatantly told me something completely false. It's was 100% false. Now, I'm not blaming him, as he obviously just doesn't know his job that well. But, given he was the upper-floor 'expert' you'd think he would. When I questioned him, he took offense and repeated this false statement to me TWO more times. I simply said OK and got what I needed and left. Of course, he had NO idea what he was talking about. A 5 minute google search showed me, on the .gov website where he was wrong.

Again, I understand that there's a learning curve and I have no idea how long he'd been in the job. But, here's the thing. He'll be paid the exact same amount as someone next to him who DOES take the time to understand his job. This means there's a DISINCENTIVE for that person to learn and do their best. Why bother if you're not going to be rewarded for your extra effort. It's why a lot of people in the government just leave after a few years as they can't stand it any longer. Leaving the worse to progress up the ladder. Competition is there to REWARD those that try hard, work hard and are clever. This doesn't exist in government. Government tries to re-create this by box-ticking and meeting 'goals' but because there's no free-market this are quickly discovered and people work the system to advance. I've seen it time and time again.

It's a Systems Problem.

I personally know a few people in government that specifically told me they took the job for the money, the job security, the great benefits and they don't have to do much work.


Try replacing the word "Government" with "monopolistic group of non-productive people" and then think about your statements once again. Because "Government" doesn't mean anything. At the end of the day there's just people. Groups of people. That's it. I'm afraid when you use "Government" you're using it the way the religious use "Church". As if "The Church" cares for people. The "Government" cares for people. The "Government" is trying to help us. Um, no. "The Government" is meaningless. Individual people "help" one another. Not "The X".

*Yawn* You want to know WHY we went to that oven repair man? because it was a warranty and that's who Westinghouse sent. It was the COMPANY not the GOVERNMENT forcing us to use him so try again

 

[pjdude1219]

I've worked in government institutions that were built FACING THE WRONG DIRECTION. Yeah, you got that right. The research institute, the actual building was facing in the wrong direction. About 10 minutes walk was ANOTHER building built facing the wrong direction. Have you ever heard of a private home owner building their house in the wrong direction? Or a private business owner? No, it never happens. It happens ALL THE TIME with the government.

BIG DIG

and i believe you except for the fact every word you post about anything related to politics and economics is a lie, a libertarian misrepresentation, or a libertarian redefining of a word from its actual meaning. sorry your lies about the government don't trump the actual evidence that says otherwise. all I know is that you have zero credibilty. so maybe before you demand we believe you you try saying some is true.