Putin's invasion of Ukraine

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Saint, Jan 20, 2022.

  1. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    & que the molotov cocktail factories
    meaning any occupying armoured vehicle will be set alight & the crew will burn to death

    & que residential buildings being fired on by the russians
    realizing 1 high building can completely devastate Armour with molotov cocktails

    but who gave the order to fire on civilian homes ?

    who gave the order to fire on the theater ?

    the psychological warfare is as important as the armored vehicle. its only as good as those driving it & once it stops and is not defended it becomes a target

    proper defense is layered all good chess players know that

    when the population are against the occupying forces there is no safe ground for the occupier

    sending tanks into varied terrain(urban, city & rugged) with lots of hiding spots where there is lots of RPG's & rockets is batshit crazy
    the only option is complicated tactical co-ordination and they never had that.
    thats a large part of the problem with a conscript force where they beast people as a normal routine.
    intellectual skill is least important.

    and we can see the results of it

    russians pride themselves on having "hard men" military
    but the hard men of war is the weapons on the battle field
    and soft civlians are joining up being armed and using them on less smart hard men with no battle plan & no authority to react & think on their feet.

    this is russias Vietnam
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    or Afghanistan or....
    As you probably already know:
    The Brits taught the world a new technique in fighting with their famous SAS in Africa WW2 1940's. Highly mobile, small squads with the right gear (stingers etc) and skill sets can do enormous damage to any "conventional" fighting force. Tanks and heavy artillery only work well on entrenched positions. If the team is constantly moving in small groups the vehicles such as tanks are a liability rather than an asset.
    The main reason Russia is failing is that it doesn't seem to understand that big military is virtually obsolete. The idea of charging the trenches mostly ended in WW1 ....
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    I find this factor to be intriguing to say the least. 7 generals !! Looks like many had a Putin gun to their heads forcing them to make major mistakes with the aim of keeping Putin happy.
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  7. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Well he's not in power for God's sake, he's in power for Ukraine's sake because the Ukrainian people chose him. Would you prefer a psychopathic mass-murdering serial liar to lead Ukraine instead? What are the characteristics that would qualify a suitable leader to you?

    On a related note, a question for you: If Putin demanded the handover of Alaska and threatened nuclear war if the US refused, and all indications pointed to the threat being credible, what would you consider to be the appropriate response?
  8. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    I don't think Molotov cocktails are a serious threat to heavy armour, it tends to be protected against this sort of thing. Drones and Javelin missiles are the biggest threat here.

    I've said for a long time that the only way to conquer a hostile country engaged in guerilla warfare is to target the civilian population supporting the hostiles, which is why war should be avoided unless you simply can't afford not to win at any cost. Fortunately Russia doesn't even have the ability to do this effectively using conventional weapons, and will hopefully be deterred from escalating knowing that NATO is capable of anything the Russians are.

    Yes it's quite clear they're completely unprepared for urban warfare. Even US special forces struggle mightily in urban environments, which is why I keep saying don't go to war and occupy a hostile country unless you're willing to level those urban environments first like Russia is trying to do (unsuccessfully due to lack of skill and functional firepower).

    Russian military training mostly consists of standing around getting kicked in the nuts and other forms of abuse. I've only gone shooting once and even I've shot enough bullets to practically qualify for the Spetsnaz. It's amazing that almost 30 years after the original disasters the Russian army experienced in Chechnya, they're still making the exact same mistakes in Ukraine today, although Russia's military and political leaders are of course legendary for being unable to learn basic lessons.
  9. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    my thought was if they hit it with about 5 the heat will cook the people inside
    additionally the reactive Armour bags will catch fire and burn very well
    i assume the tank crew breath through simple vents so they will be breathing burning smoke as it fills the air intakes
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Talking about Ukraine neutrality... I say go for it... as neutrality can change at a moments notice any how...
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    It seems bork that you are, most likely, delusional.
  12. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    The Turkish navy has destroyed a Ukrainian mine drifting near the Bosporus
    One down. 419 to go(out of 420 Ukrainian mines adrift in the Black Sea---oops).

    The FSB said about 420 mines had broken loose, claiming that the mines were set by Ukrainian forces. Ukraine said the FSB's warning was wrong and that it had no information about any mines drifting out to sea.

    "This is complete disinformation from the Russian side," Viktor Vyshnov, deputy head of Ukraine’s state-run Maritime Administration, told Reuters.

    Trust is a hard thing to gain and an easy thing to lose
    Viktor Vyshnov just lost it

    The Ukrainian navy said it alone had the right to distribute safety notices about its part of the Black Sea and cast Moscow's warning as an attempt at information "piracy".

    "information piracy"
    aka free speech?
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
  13. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Yes because I'm the one who said the mighty Ruskies would take over Kiev in a matter of days. Russia sucks at training its soldiers, been like that for centuries. In the two major invasions of Russia that failed in the last two centuries, lack of preparedness for winter was the primary reason for the failures in both cases.

    In Russia thousands of people are being sent to jail just for correctly pointing out that Russia is losing this war and doing so in a most spectacular fashion with little modern precedent. If that's not a problem for you then why would it be a problem for Ukraine to have control over its own narrative just like Putin has over his?
  14. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    I did a little bit of reading on the subject to get more details. It seems the Molotov was particularly effective in the 1930's because many tanks were designed to be air cooled and were therefore vulnerable to intaking smoke and fire. Even then in countries like Finland, Molotovs only accounted for about 20% of the tanks destroyed. Against modern armoured vehicles it's not really that effective, but the threat of Molotovs can force soldiers to stay inside the vehicles with their hatches sealed, making it much more difficult to see what's going on around the tank as they operate. I'm sure they're still useful against lighter armoured vehicles like jeeps and supply trucks, and there's a psychological effect in seeing the population constantly hurling these things and fighting for every inch of ground.
  15. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    i did some quick reading and the new tanks sound like they would be survivable but they would have no way to see where they were.
    once the tanks cant see out, people can run up & put tires on to set fire to the rubber and keep it burning.
    but as you say with modern anti tank missiles in good distribution being forced to not move in fear of getting stuck would make them a lot more susceptible to less experienced missile attack
    there seems to be good distribution of anti tank weapons so mobility is survival for them.

    remove their ability to navigate and they become an easy target

    if you can get close enough to throw oil into the air intake it would cause issues
    set that oil on fire so its sucking burning oil into the air in take its going to cause issues for the air system

    i also imagine that once they close thier hatches and cant see
    someone can jam steel into thier tracks to jam thier tracks
    car/truck ball bearings for instance would be probably sufficiently hard enough to do damage

    maybe a cut lunch-box-size piece of angle steel tied to the end of a stick jammed into the inside of the track
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
  16. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

    I suppose your take on this would depend on if you believed social media sources or the medical professionals who the BBC say "wished to remain anonymous".

  17. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    President Zelensky already said the incident is a war crime if true and an investigation was being launched. If only Putin's men had 1% of that honesty level with the crimes they're committing on their own end.
  18. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    How do you tell a Ukrainian mine from a Russian mine?

    You ask the Russians, because they only lie about who they're going to invade, or which hospital they're going to shell, or which market full of civilians they're going to cluster bomb, right?
    They never lie about mines.
    foghorn likes this.
  19. foghorn Valued Senior Member

    Ok, will Putin get out of this by saying his generals never kept him up to date on things, and so pinning the war crime label on them? And, will the west/world accept that excuse after very long 'deliberation', and their eagerness to get the world back on track?
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2022
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  20. sculptor Valued Senior Member


    The Ukrainians are also claiming that the mines are Ukrainian mines
    but, with a twist
    The Ukrainians are claiming that the Russians stole the Ukrainian mines and set them adrift to embarrass Ukraine.
  21. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Let's say the mines really are Ukrainian and that Ukraine deliberately placed them in the Black Sea. Would you say such an action justifies Russia's mass bombardment of civilian populations?
  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    so they pull one out of the water and read Made In China on the manufacturers label...lol
    what do they often say is the first casualty of war?
    sculptor likes this.

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