Obama Finally Brings Sanity to the US Relationship with Cuba

cosmic said:
I remember Cuba sending its military into Granada to try and take it over.
No, you don't. You remember your senile President inaccurately claiming that as a justification for sending American military into Granada and taking it over.
cosmic said:
Then there were more Cuban troops sent to Angola to help the communists take control.
"The communists"? Who are you talking about?

If you are talking about the Cuban military aid in the late 1980s, that was in support of the existing government of Angola, not someone trying to take over. It was threatened by South African backed insurgents and terrorists. Were you in favor of South African backed government for Angola? It was capitalist, of course - like the viciously racist apartheid regime of South Africa that was supporting it. It's an open question whether the crony capitalism or the ugly racism was the bigger attraction for US support of these South African military ventures, but your fellow US conservatives's support of them was the main thing keeping them going. So take a bow.

cosmic said:
the Cubans worked for much less because they were being subsidized by the American government for years.
Do you still believe that crap from thirty year old Republican campaign propaganda? Fool you once, ok, but where's your self respect?

cosmic said:
If the Cubans didn't like Fidel why didn't they just overthrow him? There were over 10 million Cubans living there when he took power away from Batista so instead of standing up and fighting for their homes and lands they just were allowed to relocate in America.
They didn't have homes and lands. They had Batista, and life in the gutter run by the mob. Fidel was a Godsend, a deliverer from evil. That's why the whole ten million of them didn't flee, or even one million - we got Batista's allies and henchmen, the thugs and corrupt scum and compromised aristocracy of a third world organized crime run sugar republic. The capitalists. Miami's been run by the mob ever since, and the heirs of the compromised elites have been whining about their stolen land the whole time.

It's done. The land is stolen. The US Cubans have exactly as much claim on it as the Cherokee have on the State of Tennessee.
 
Yes, just as I suspected a religion wants more of its kind to flood into America so that it gains more control of the government and jobs just as the Mexicans are doing I bet. I saw that coming for over 50 years since the USA started to let anyone immigrate into America from Cuba when Fidel Castro took power. The more of one religion the more and more it can get paid back from their congregations for the church helping them to immigrate. While it takes years for other people from other countries to legally immigrate into America the church pushed to let millions come in at one time back in the 1960's.

I remember that very well when the "refugees" came into America they were sent to many cities but many returned to Miami where more of them were relocated. That drove down labor costs because the Cubans worked for much less because they were being subsidized by the American government for years. So wages went from 6.00 an hour to start in a plumbing job down to 4.00 an hour, not bad for the owners of companies back then to be able to hire cheap labor. Then TV went Spanish and Spanish started to have Spanish classes only for those who knew Spanish.

Great place to live in Miami if you were Cuban back then with Federal subsidies, Federal help with low income housing and free medical care for Cubans and families. I, on the other hand, did not "qualify" because I wasn't Cuban so I paid for my insurance, house and had to work for lower pay.

If the Cubans didn't like Fidel why didn't they just overthrow him? There were over 10 million Cubans living there when he took power away from Batista so instead of standing up and fighting for their homes and lands they just were allowed to relocate in America. Tell me Joe if anyone tried to take your home and property away from you what would you do, run away to another country or try to remove those in power to get your things back? I would stand and fight myself and others I have talked to say the same so why did the Cubans all leave....the church ...?
So you think it is a Roman Catholic conspiracy to get more Roman Catholics in this country? There is absolutely no indication of that. As you point out, Cubans have been illegally immigrating to the US for decades. And I thought you liked the old free market. To hear you complain about the free market for labor is a bit ironic. Competition is a good thing. It sounds like you felt entitled to a certain wage. Unless your last name is Koch or someone like him, no one is entitled to a certain wage level or any wage for that matter.

Two, your recollection of history is a little murky. When Fidel took over Cuba he was welcomed as a hero and a liberator. Batista was the corrupt bad guy who fled with his cronies. It took a while before Fidel's true colors began to show. Anyway, the past is the past, American Cuban policy of the last 50 years didn't work. It's time to find a new policy.
 
So you think it is a Roman Catholic conspiracy to get more Roman Catholics in this country? There is absolutely no indication of that. As you point out, Cubans have been illegally immigrating to the US for decades. And I thought you liked the old free market. To hear you complain about the free market for labor is a bit ironic. Competition is a good thing. It sounds like you felt entitled to a certain wage. Unless your last name is Koch or someone like him, no one is entitled to a certain wage level or any wage for that matter.

Two, your recollection of history is a little murky. When Fidel took over Cuba he was welcomed as a hero and a liberator. Batista was the corrupt bad guy who fled with his cronies. It took a while before Fidel's true colors began to show. Anyway, the past is the past, American Cuban policy of the last 50 years didn't work. It's time to find a new policy.

Yes I think the church has a great deal more to gain than one would suspect looking down the road.

My wages were earned by me and others who worked for years to get that wage but when the Cubans came to town they made the wages drop quite a bit and they gained because of all the Federal subsidies they got but I wasn't entitled to.

Over a million Marialetos {sp} came in 1980 adding to more cheap labor. The companies charged more for services but the workers were paid less so the workers were getting the shaft but owners took advantage and gave little to its employees. But some employees knew this and made the work slow down and at times even destroyed work that was already done so they could get paid more.

There is a Federal Minimum wage law if you don't remember so people are entitled to get paid at least that amount which isn't very much in todays market.
 
Yes I think the church has a great deal more to gain than one would suspect looking down the road.

My wages were earned by me and others who worked for years to get that wage but when the Cubans came to town they made the wages drop quite a bit and they gained because of all the Federal subsidies they got but I wasn't entitled to.

Over a million Marialetos {sp} came in 1980 adding to more cheap labor. The companies charged more for services but the workers were paid less so the workers were getting the shaft but owners took advantage and gave little to its employees. But some employees knew this and made the work slow down and at times even destroyed work that was already done so they could get paid more.

There is a Federal Minimum wage law if you don't remember so people are entitled to get paid at least that amount which isn't very much in todays market.
Yes, there are federal and state wage laws. But that doesn't mean you are entitled to a wage. In this country, people are not entitled to employment. And as I said before, it is more than a bit ironic that you like to extol the virtues of free markets except when those markets work against you. Competition is a good thing. Jobs and wages are not an entitlement in this country. If you are worth $6 per hour employers will pay you that. If not, they will pay you less. That is how it works. It's called free market capitalism. And it wasn't a million marialetos, it was more like 125,000.
 
Yes, there are federal and state wage laws. But that doesn't mean you are entitled to a wage. In this country, people are not entitled to employment. And as I said before, it is more than a bit ironic that you like to extol the virtues of free markets except when those markets work against you. Competition is a good thing. Jobs and wages are not an entitlement in this country. If you are worth $6 per hour employers will pay you that. If not, they will pay you less. That is how it works. It's called free market capitalism. And it wasn't a million marialetos, it was more like 125,000.


It is only fair when the playing field is level and with the Federal Government handing the Cubans money they never earned they could live allot better than I could with the wages I made. As I said there were ways to make more and I did so it wasn't that rough for me but many other co workers didn't have that ability. I will always say that capitalism is better than most other forms of businesses but I stress that without a level playing field no one can ever stay up with what costs are.
 
It is only fair when the playing field is level and with the Federal Government handing the Cubans money they never earned they could live allot better than I could with the wages I made. As I said there were ways to make more and I did so it wasn't that rough for me but many other co workers didn't have that ability. I will always say that capitalism is better than most other forms of businesses but I stress that without a level playing field no one can ever stay up with what costs are.

So you think a newly arrived Cuban who doesn't know the language, the culture, and our laws is advantaged over you just because the government gave them temporary housing and food assistance...seriously? If you were in the same boat as those Cubans, you would get welfare benefits (i.e. food & housing assistance) too. But you were not. You didn't need those benefits because you were employed. Yes you will always say capitalism is better all the while you are arguing for socialist benefits like Social Security, Medicare and other government handouts and subsidies for yourself but not for the other guy.

What is a "level playing field"? You are starting to sound like a Democrat.
 
Let's see Cuba still imprisons its citizens and others as well, noting the man who was just released after 5 years, for only saying or doing something against the state. Not allowing the human rights organization to inspect its prisons to see if human rights violations are happening. The people there can't own land, in Russia and China they can . There is no other radio or newspaper other than those run by the state. If people even complain about how bad things are they are put into prisons. Yes Cuba is a very nice place to deal with , isn't it.
As I told you before, all those claims were true of both China and Russia when the US began normalization of relations with those countries and some of those conditions remain true to this day. But we still have relationships with those countries. So again, what makes Cuba so different? You are so bent out of shape about Cuban immigrants, a better relationship with Cuba may keep more Cubans home.
 
Since when did refusing to trade and talk to a country ever accomplish anything? We don't deal with Cuba, N. Korea or Iran.

As mentioned, all the embargo has done is to hurt the citizens. If U.S. tourists could easily go to Cuba small businesses would spring up and at this point the government would do little to stop it.

China, while not great, is a much better place to live today than during Mao's rule. Cuba is westernized and has a history of enterprise and should bounce back much quicker than China.

Once the economy improves due to tourisms it would be even harder for the government to insist that its brand of communism is better since there is now a 50 year history that shows that it is not.

The Republicans are just against anything that Obama is for, especially at election time and especially Republican politicians from Florida.
 
Not those Cubans.
I meant aliens from the planet Cubos, who have a cube shaped head and six faces, not people from Cuba.

I like people from Cuba.

che_guevara_fidel_castro.jpg
 
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By Aliens I mean those Cubans from the Island of Aliena on Cubos.
They have to use old space vehicles, because the nearby larger Island of Ameerka won't let them have any new ones.
Ameerkans look like Meerkats, with six heads.
They think they rule the planet.
 
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The concern with the new relationship with socialist Cuba is the aid will be siphoned by the haves, which is the leadership, and not given to the poor, which is everyone else. There were no provisions to change anything at the bottom in terms of human rights. The divide means the top gets it all.

That being said, this would be a good disguise to money launder tax payer money for a future private villas in Cuba, for the leaders who give the money. It would work sort of like public sector unions, paying politicians to give them special considerations, that mean more money in union coffers. They give money up front to get more tax money later, with the phase difference the disguise for the laundering.

I don't think money laundering should be allowed no matter how slick the trick. Those who receive tax dollars should not able to kickback or contribute to any politician involved in the money getting. It is always a bad deal for the tax payer who gets nothing in the scam.
 
The concern with the new relationship with socialist Cuba is the aid will be siphoned by the haves, which is the leadership, and not given to the poor, which is everyone else. There were no provisions to change anything at the bottom in terms of human rights. The divide means the top gets it all.

That being said, this would be a good disguise to money launder tax payer money for a future private villas in Cuba, for the leaders who give the money. It would work sort of like public sector unions, paying politicians to give them special considerations, that mean more money in union coffers. They give money up front to get more tax money later, with the phase difference the disguise for the laundering.

I don't think money laundering should be allowed no matter how slick the trick. Those who receive tax dollars should not able to kickback or contribute to any politician involved in the money getting. It is always a bad deal for the tax payer who gets nothing in the scam.
Except no one is talking "aid" money, no one is talking giving taxpayer money to Cuba. No one is talking easing money laundering laws or enforcement- nice try Wellwisher.

Further, in the US the amount of money given to politicians is mostly from the wealthiest Americans - not unions of any shape or color. So it is kind of telling that you point out the 1% of money given to politicians by unions and overlook the 99% of money given to politicians by the people who support your ideology. And at any rate, it has nothing to do with Cuba or Obama's recent decision to initiate formal relations between the two countries.
 
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cosmic said:
My wages were earned by me and others who worked for years to get that wage but when the Cubans came to town they made the wages drop quite a bit and they gained because of all the Federal subsidies they got but I wasn't entitled to.
Bullshit. http://proust.library.miami.edu/findingaids/?p=creators/creator&id=51

Your entire local economy would have been crashed had the Feds not stepped in - can you imagine what Cubans wold have been forced to work for had some refugee benefits not been available?

And that entire mess was created by the US support of the Batista regime in the first place, especially its encouragement of organized crime and other predatory capitalist operations.

And the Batista regime was in a position to seize power and convert a democracy into a military dictatorship in large part because of racism in the US - the major reason the US refused admit Cuba as a State of the Union in 1902 was that its population was mostly black people.

cosmic said:
Over a million Marialetos {sp} came in 1980 adding to more cheap labor.
You're off by an order of magnitude.

There's a pattern in your inability to get your facts straight - they conflict with the Republican rightwing worldview. You are not celebrating this long overdue moment of sane foreign policy reform because you live in a fantasy world.
 
The Return


The news from Havana:

The Stars and Stripes are flying over the U.S. embassy in Cuba for the first time in 54 years.

Secretary of State John Kerry on Friday presided over an elaborate ceremony at the recently re-opened embassy in Havana, symbolizing a new era in the long contentious relationship between the two nations.

Speaking both in English and Spanish, Kerry marked the event as a “truly historic moment,” recalling the height of tensions between the two nations during the Cold War.

“The road of mutual isolation and estrangement that the U.S. and Cuba have been traveling is not the right one,” he said. “The time has come for us to move in a more promising direction.”

Three retired Marines who lowered the flag in 1961 after Washington cut off ties with Havana were on hand Friday to help raise it again.


(Fabian↱)

There are, of course, critics. Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) denounced diplomacy as "backward", complaining that the Obama administration "has rewarded the castro regime for its repressive tactics".

Given that the basis of diplomacy is discourse, and that embassies are traditionally established to facilitate this discourse, Mr. Rubio finds himself balanced on a thin line between warmongering and a failure of governance. That is to say, the embargo hasn't forced the Castros from power, and only hurts the Cuban people; at best, Mr. Rubio is satisfied with this outcome and wants the Cuban people to suffer even more.

Something old, something new; something borrowed, something blue. One of the world's most ridiculous tests of silence is coming to an end―we ought not be surprised to hear the war pigs squeal in dismay.
____________________

Notes:

Fabian, Jordan. "US flag rises over Havana". The Hill. 14 August 2015. TheHill.com. 14 August 2015. http://bit.ly/1KlNLBP
 
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