Obama Finally Brings Sanity to the US Relationship with Cuba

joepistole

Deacon Blues
Valued Senior Member
Obama announced today the beginning of normalization of relations between Cuba and the US. For decades now, the US has normalized relations with other dictatorial communist countries like China and Russia, but for some reason Cuba was left out of all the Kumbayah. China was and is just as dictatorial and repressive as Cuba. So why single out Cuba for special treatment and condemnation? That policy never made sense. Conservatives had justified engagement with dictatorial states like China on the notion that trade relationships would lead to more liberal and responsible behaviors from dictatorial states like China. But somehow, they never managed to include Cuba in their engagement policies. Well today it ends or at lest the beginning of the end begins with Obama's announcement today.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/17/371398638/cuba-frees-american-contractor-alan-gross
 
Let's see Cuba still imprisons its citizens and others as well, noting the man who was just released after 5 years, for only saying or doing something against the state. Not allowing the human rights organization to inspect its prisons to see if human rights violations are happening. The people there can't own land, in Russia and China they can . There is no other radio or newspaper other than those run by the state. If people even complain about how bad things are they are put into prisons. Yes Cuba is a very nice place to deal with , isn't it.
 
Let's see Cuba still imprisons its citizens and others as well, noting the man who was just released after 5 years, for only saying or doing something against the state. Not allowing the human rights organization to inspect its prisons to see if human rights violations are happening. The people there can't own land, in Russia and China they can . There is no other radio or newspaper other than those run by the state. If people even complain about how bad things are they are put into prisons. Yes Cuba is a very nice place to deal with , isn't it.
And so did China. China does the same thing and more. China kills prisoners and sells their body parts. Right up until 2007, private individuals couldn't own property either in China and the thaw in US-China relations began decades ago with Nixon.
 
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And so did China. China does the same thing and more. China kills prisoners and sells their body parts. Right up until 2007, private individuals couldn't own property either in China and the thaw in US-China relations began decades ago with Nixon.

So what you are saying is that Cuba will begin private ownership 50 years from now if they are allowed to open their country up?

China puts to death prisoners that were found guilty in court of crimes that put them to death. Because they were justified in putting prisoners to death they also could sell their body parts for why waste them why not use them to save anothers life.

Russia has private ownership.

Cuba is now and has been trading with Mexico, Russia, France and India so what do they need America for?
 
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cosmic said:
The people there can't own land, in Russia and China they can .
Not in China:
wiki said:
The {2007} law does not change the system of land tenure by which the state owns all land. However, in formalizing existing practice, individuals can possess a land-use right, which is defined in Chapter 10 of the law. The law defines this land-use right in terms of the civil law concept of usufruct.

As far as the prisons, the Cuban prison with the highest percentage of innocent political detainees, and the worst treatment of them, is in the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay.

cosmic said:
Cuba is now and has been trading with Mexico, Russia, France and India so what do they need America for?
Consider the benefits to you and yours - you've been trying to use Cuba as a bad example for decades now, but you keep running into the fact that Cuba is getting its outcomes despite being embargoed and persecuted by the world's most powerful economic and military State just 90 miles away. So that makes the outcomes of capitalism nearby - Haiti, Dominican Republic, Trinidad, Jamaica, - look even worse, as Cuba exports its medical care expertise and example of superior nutrition, lifespan, disease afflictions, child mortality rates, disaster recovery, and so forth, to all the neighboring countries that can escape US retribution.

Cuba won't have any excuses, soon, for having old cars and poor people. And they might end up even better off than Haiti in the future than they are now, if they can somehow continue to avoid receiving US help and advice like Haiti got.
 
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As far as the prisons, the Cuban prison with the highest percentage of innocent political detainees, and the worst treatment of them, is in the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay.

So you really believe that? There are about 130 or so prisoners of war and terrorists that were either involved in killing innocent people or killing military personnel. There's a very big difference between political prisoners and terrorists don't you think?
 
cosmic said:
There are about 130 or so prisoners of war and terrorists that were either involved in killing innocent people or killing military personnel. There's a very big difference between political prisoners and terrorists don't you think?
Yes, I do. That's why I call the percentage of non-terrorists in Cuban prisons "political prisoners" - regardless of what Castro's government, or W's, call them.

But my observation about the treatment of prisoners in Cuba stands regardless of whether you accept the kinds of propaganda labels secret police like to attach to those they intend to "interrogate" in their special prisons. The worst prison on that island, at least until recently, was the one at the US naval base in Guantanamo Bay.
 
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So what you are saying is that Cuba will begin private ownership 50 years from now if they are allowed to open their country up?

China puts to death prisoners that were found guilty in court of crimes that put them to death. Because they were justified in putting prisoners to death they also could sell their body parts for why waste them why not use them to save anothers life.

Russia has private ownership.

Cuba is now and has been trading with Mexico, Russia, France and India so what do they need America for?
No, I'm saying you have a double standard and being a bit of a hypocrite. You didn't mind China. China put people to death for the same reasons. Both are ruled by a communist party.
 
The Catholic Church apparently brokered this deal between the US and Cuba. So Republicans are in the unenviable position of attacking the church as well as Obama. Republicans don't mind attacking Obama, they do that every day. Obama gets out of bed and Republicans accuse him of a whole host of miscreant, dangerous and reckless behaviors. Obama puts on his pants and he becomes an imperial president. But accusing a popular Pope of the same miscreant, dangerous and reckless behaviors, well that is going to be a more difficult sell to a portion of their base. I suspect Republicans will just pretend the Pope didn't play a role in the thawing of relations between Cuba and the US - just ignore his role in this. Republicans are very good at ignoring inconvenient truths.
 
It is about time. Canada is going to be pissed though, they won't be able to sell Cuban cigars for >$50 to US tourists anymore.
 
The Catholic Church apparently brokered this deal between the US and Cuba. So Republicans are in the unenviable position of attacking the church as well as Obama. Republicans don't mind attacking Obama, they do that every day. Obama gets out of bed and Republicans accuse him of a whole host of miscreant, dangerous and reckless behaviors. Obama puts on his pants and he becomes an imperial president. But accusing a popular Pope of the same miscreant, dangerous and reckless behaviors, well that is going to be a more difficult sell to a portion of their base. I suspect Republicans will just pretend the Pope didn't play a role in the thawing of relations between Cuba and the US - just ignore his role in this. Republicans are very good at ignoring inconvenient truths.


Yes, just as I suspected a religion wants more of its kind to flood into America so that it gains more control of the government and jobs just as the Mexicans are doing I bet. I saw that coming for over 50 years since the USA started to let anyone immigrate into America from Cuba when Fidel Castro took power. The more of one religion the more and more it can get paid back from their congregations for the church helping them to immigrate. While it takes years for other people from other countries to legally immigrate into America the church pushed to let millions come in at one time back in the 1960's.

I remember that very well when the "refugees" came into America they were sent to many cities but many returned to Miami where more of them were relocated. That drove down labor costs because the Cubans worked for much less because they were being subsidized by the American government for years. So wages went from 6.00 an hour to start in a plumbing job down to 4.00 an hour, not bad for the owners of companies back then to be able to hire cheap labor. Then TV went Spanish and Spanish started to have Spanish classes only for those who knew Spanish.

Great place to live in Miami if you were Cuban back then with Federal subsidies, Federal help with low income housing and free medical care for Cubans and families. I, on the other hand, did not "qualify" because I wasn't Cuban so I paid for my insurance, house and had to work for lower pay.

If the Cubans didn't like Fidel why didn't they just overthrow him? There were over 10 million Cubans living there when he took power away from Batista so instead of standing up and fighting for their homes and lands they just were allowed to relocate in America. Tell me Joe if anyone tried to take your home and property away from you what would you do, run away to another country or try to remove those in power to get your things back? I would stand and fight myself and others I have talked to say the same so why did the Cubans all leave....the church ...?
 
It is about time. Canada is going to be pissed though, they won't be able to sell Cuban cigars for >$50 to US tourists anymore.
Indeed it is, it makes absolutely no sense to continue the same failed Cuban policies for another 50 years just because a few aging Cuban immigrants hate Fidel who is no longer president and want to send him a message.
 
It makes me laugh, listening to the news, how many people (especially Cuban exiles) are saying this is a bad idea/pandering to terrorists/etc

They keep saying that we're "giving in to a dictatorial regime" and that our embargo should be continued in order to "pressure Cuba into allowing free elections"

What are these nutters smoking? Why should we continue a policy half a century old that has accomplished pretty much dick all?
 
I remember Cuba sending its military into Granada to try and take it over. Then there were more Cuban troops sent to Angola to help the communists take control. Yes, Cuba is a very good place now isn't it when it won't let people read anything but what the government wants them to know or hear on the media. Cuban government takes most of the money it earns from the people and gives them little in return, that's a very progressive administration isn't it. Cuba wants to trade but what does it have besides cancer causing tobacco products?
 
Them being "good or bad" makes no difference - the simple fact is, our embargo did nothing of any real consequence... especially since the rest of the world didn't seem too interested in joining in on it.

Now, if we could get even half the industrialized world to embargo them, that'd be another matter entirely... but again, we're still doing more damage to the citizens than the government...
 
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