My Theory is Proven

tab'

However, the person may do something on occassions which is so generous, selfless and loving that even God (if it existed) would have to take notice!

But it wouldn't make any difference to their destiny anyway, so you don't have to reply to this.

Oh, I think I'll respond anyway...

Sure, tab' - God takes notice of good deeds... God came to show us how to serve each other and how to live in right relationships through love. God has also made it very clear, however, that we do not get to heaven through our good deeds. As many good deeds as we have done in our lifetime, we have also sinned.

We must be sin-free in order to enter heaven. A good deed does not wash away sin. The only way to be in the sin-free state needed to enter heaven is to accept God's loving gift of salvation.
 
truestory,

Oh, just a couple of questions.
1) why is absolution offered only before death (the obvious answer being that the dead do not contribute money to the church, but you of course will not accept that.)
2) why God had to die in order to be able to offer absolution (he seemed to cope just fine before Christ.)
3) if being pure means having no recollection of what sin is like, then just how much of oneself is left upon entrance into heaven? On the other hand, if the inhabitants of heaven have full recollection of their sins, they are not qualitatively different from the way they were before they were "absolved". So, where does God's need to "purify" sinners come from?
4) Once again, you have managed to summarize a part of your religion. The primary question (which you continue to evade) -- is <u>why couldn't God do better than this</u> -- if even someone like me can come up with a better policy toward sinners. (and please don't say that God's policy is perfect merely because he is God.)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.
 
Searcher,

Thanks. That's what I thought, I just wanted to clarify...

Let me say this, please... Just because a non-believer presents such statements, even if they insinuate in a stereotypical manner that it is Christian logic, it does no make it so (it does not mean that it is true).
 
Boris,

The "policy" you describe is not only a merciless one, but it even smacks of vengefulness.

It is apparent to me that this is what you see... apparently, you refuse to acknowledge the great and merciful gift of salvation, "total absolution," which our most loving God has offered to all of us.
 
Yah, truestory, I do have a question!

You say I'm ridiculing you, well, I'm pointing out your tendancy to avoid the question, and I'm not the only one who sees you doing it. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's the truth I see before me.

My question is this (basically the same question Boris posted that you didn't really answer) - "Why does the post-death pardon not exist?" To give you credit, maybe you didn't understand the question and your slippery answer was accidental. But I didn't give you credit the first time around because you give those slippery answers all the time. Was I wrong, did you misunderstand Boris' question? Or did you deliberately give a non-answer to that question? If the second is true, then I withdraw my credit, and my "sorry".

Let me know if my question is unclear, as well. I think it's pretty straight forward, so it should be clear, I think.
 
Tiassa~

:D

How is it that such a simple cartoon reflects so much truth?


Remember this one:
"mmmmmm, sacrilicious...." ?
 
truestory ~

Another thing I just noticed about your post that I'd like to comment on:

"I must say that this seems to go directly against what it is that you are preaching about your pagan holiday."

Hmm, I'm the one preaching now, eh?

Tell me, how much do you know about Imbolc? I'm curious. Really, how much? Just what I've said here, in a short little post? Did you read up on it ANYWHERE else before making that claim? Or are you just pushing buttons at random, trying to rile me up? LOL, if that's what you're up to, you'll have to try harder than that!

Contrary to your assumption, I was actually trying to poke a bit of harmless fun at you. (Yes, Fun, as in 'ha, ha, ha') And, as I mentioned, I am not the first one to raise my hand and point at your non-answers. I thought you had a tougher exterior than that. So though it may "seem" to you that I am ignoring my own holiday by being mean to you, let me assure you that your assumption is incorrect.

Additionally; how again do you define "preaching"? Giving history and facts on a holiday, in a separate thread, addressed to nobody in particular, accompanied by a well-wish for any who cares to read it is "preaching"? I'm confused here.
 
Boris,

1) why is absolution offered only before death (the obvious answer being that the dead do not contribute money to the church, but you of course will not accept that.)

Maybe you choose to believe that it has something to do with giving money to the(?) church, however, it has been explained many times on this board that salvation has nothing to do with good deeds, reciting prayers, giving money to a church, etc... (There are many Christians, including myself, who do not attend a church of bricks and mortar). Salvation comes through our acceptance of the lovingly offered saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Additionally, I answered this question which you previously posed (but which did not have the comment about giving money to the church). Here it is again:

Once we reject salvation in this lifetime, because we do not love God, we enter hell and do not know the love of God. We are totally separated from God.

Like the soul in heaven that has no concept of sin, the soul in hell has no concept of the love of God... Therefore, they no longer have the same level conciousness that was afforded them in this lifetime to even be able to ask God for forgiveness. Again, salvation is not offered to one who simply fears punishment. It is offered to those who love God and have consciously accepted his great and loving gift of salvation.

2) why God had to die in order to be able to offer absolution (he seemed to cope just fine before Christ.)

For milleniums, God had promised salvation so that souls of mankind, that had turned so vile, could finally become fit to enter the sin-free kingdom of heaven. We were incapable of getting to that state ourselves... Part of the reason for this was that mankind was incapable of understanding just how much God loves us and just how much He wants us to be with Him. God came to help us, to demonstrate His love for us in the "flesh" which we understand... in the same physical form that we, as humans, are familiar with and could comprehend. God gave up His own human life for us, the life that mankind holds so near and dear and the life which mankind mistakenly deems most important... In essence, it was necessary for God to die in the flesh for us because we comprehend a physical world in the flesh... What God demonstrated for us, on our own terms was this... "I love you so much that I am willing to give up my life for you." By doing so and then by means of the subsequent resurrection, God demonstrated that it is not this life which we should be concerned about keeping... that there is indeed a life after death available to us all... that it is in this life that we either choose to accept or reject God's love and enter into the afterlife with Him or not. He came to serve us, to make it "easier" for us to come into a sin-free state. Prior to that, there was nothing that man could do on his own that could possibly bring him to the sin-free state needed to enter heaven.

Now that we have been given the loving gift of salvation, simply by accepting this gift, like Jesus Christ, we too will be resurrected into the loving and sin-free kingdom of heaven to dwell for all eternity with our most loving God.

3) if being pure means having no recollection of what sin is like, then just how much of oneself is left upon entrance into heaven?

Everything is left except our sin, our recollection of sin or any future temptation to sin. By acceptance of God's great and loving gift of salvation in this life, we consciously decided to give that up for all eternity.

On the other hand, if the inhabitants of heaven have full recollection of their sins, they are not qualitatively different from the way they were before they were "absolved". So, where does God's need to "purify" sinners come from?

Inhabitants of heaven have no concept of sin.

4) Once again, you have managed to summarize a part of your religion. The primary question (which you continue to evade) -- is why couldn't God do better than this -- if even someone like me can come up with a better policy toward sinners. (and please don't say that God's policy is perfect merely because he is God.)

Once again, Boris, you equate disagreement with evasion. That is an erroneous conclusion most likely based on your prideful assumption that in your limited human comprehension you have somehow managed to convince yourself that you have a better plan than our omniscient God. May I remind you... just because your human pride might cause you to believe that your plan is better, does not make it so (does not make it true). I happen to believe that God's plan is better than yours. My conclusion is based on an analysis of God's "entire" plan which He has made known to us (not just one factor), which includes, among other things, God's great and loving offer of salvation which is so readily available to all of us...

I am humbled by the love, simplicity and pureness of heart with which God offers to us the great and loving gift of salvation.
 
MoonCat,

I indeed answered Boris' question directly. Twice now, as a matter of fact, since he asked the same question in a subsequent post. Perhaps you don't understand the concept (and I don't mean that in a negative way) or perhaps I could explain it better or differently. However, it is not and has not ever been my intention to be evasive or "slippery" as you "choose" to characterize me.

I will try to explain the answer to you also... If you don't agree with it, that's fine. If you don't understand it, I'd appreciate it if you would simply ask "me" to clarify.

The acceptance of salvation is the act of entering into a mutually loving relationship with God. It is a "conscious" decision which we make of our own "free-will" based on our "love" for God... It is what God and heaven are about... "love."

A relationship which is motivated on one side by a "desire" to "escape" hell, whether it is a motivation which arises in this life or once we are in hell, is NOT a "loving" relationship.

That is why it must be made "consiously" of our own "free-will" in "this" lifetime based on our "love" of God.

Please let me know if I have explained this clearly or not.
 
Truestory~

Well, that's more of an answer...

So riddle me this: why is it then that we are asked to take this all on faith. Why cannot there be the "waiting room", and you get to meet God face to face before you decide what to believe. We're being asked to make a decision before being presented with any solid facts. I know, I know, Jesus came to earth to fix all of that, but as you can plainly see, that didn't work. Why is it that upon death, I can't go and hear the dirt straight from the horses mouth before I'm cast into a burning pit? Why don't I get a chance to at least experience the "Love of God" before choosing? Even if hell is never brought into the picture, you get a chance to meet God, see what a nice, loving father he is, and then choose to be with him eternally. Instead we get this fun game to play - who is right?, who said what?, what does God really want?...ad nauseum.

Let me draw another analogy to help clarify what I'm saying here:

You are given a choice, do you want to eat the blue food, or the green food? And that's all the information you get, but once you choose, that's all you're going to get is either the blue food or the green food for the rest of your life.

You aren't allowed to taste it, smell it, see it, or even know for sure there IS a blue food or green food, but you're being asked to make that decision RIGHT NOW, you can never change your mind, and whatever you pick is what you're stuck with.

There are other people who have made that choice, and some are telling you that the blue food is the best one, that the green food tastes terrible and burns your tongue. Others are telling you that the green food is ACTUALLY the one, and it's the blue food that is acrid.

So, what do you pick truestory? You want the blue food or the green food? Pick now, but keep in mind, if you pick wrong, there's no going back, no changing your mind, no chance AT ALL that you can make the choice again.

Wouldn't you much rather at least get a sniff at the food before hand? Or even better, maybe a taste? Wouldn't you ask for those things? Are those requests out of line? Wouldn't someone forcing those choices upon you without giving you a real basis to make a decision just be playing with you and/or being cruel? Especially when they could easily give you a sample of each.

To me, it seems like this is not so great a thing to ask for. Especially if you're asking it from a supposedly all-powerful and loving father.
 
Well, MoonCat, I've been in God's "waiting room" myself. What "waiting room" were you in when you decided to believe in gods and godesses?

Yes, MoonCat... Jesus did come to earth, He did teach us how to live in right relationships through love, He was persecuted, He was crucified, He did die for us so that our sins would be forgiven and He rose on the third day to demonstrate the reality of salvation which is an afterlife in fellowship and love with God. These facts were prophecied, observed and recorded over thousands of years for our benefit.

The "horse" as you put it, already came and gave us the "dirt" that you are looking for. His Word was recorded for your benefit.

What are the solid facts which brought you to make a decision to believe in gods and godesses?

The analogy doesn't work because it assumes no information - it ignores all of the documented information available to us concerning Jesus Christ and God's great gift of salvation.

I have a real basis for making my decision, MoonCat. What's yours?

As evidenced by your decision to practice witchcraft, surely you can see that God is not forcing a specific choice on you...?

As I'm sure you know by now, which ever color represents God's well-documented offer of salvation is the one I pick.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 02, 2000).]
 
Mooncat--

Incidentally, did you hear that Maude Flanders, on "The Simpsons" is apparently gonna die? But that's beside the point.

As yet another side-note, I promise to stop piping up with that kind of dumb commentary in the middle of debates.

I liked your "Waiting Room" bit, and wanted to throw a couple of comments at you about that and the blue/green food.

As to the waiting room ... I don't recall seeing your handle around at the time, but I used to have the following paragraph as a signature:

"Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)

Makes me think of job interviews ... after all, what happens if Jesus is having a rough time with the accountants when you arrive, fifteen minutes late due to lackadaisical, angelic bus drivers? (We always say my brother will be late to his own funeral :cool: )

And I wanted to give a couple of words about the blue/green food ... do the people telling you how good the food is ... do they have an interest in the outcome of your decision? After all, when you ask the register-jockey, "How's the Big Mac today?" is he really going to brush off his golden-arch emblems and say, "Actually it sucks today"? In the end, it might actually be all about market-share.

Of course, if it's bad enough for long enough, will that Syndrome kick in (Stockholm ... Munich ... Beirut ... I can't pick the name off my tongue right now; that captor/captive romance thing). I mean, if I was forced to eat 7-11 hot dogs every meal of every day, I might actually develop an psychospiritual bond with the darn things; the metaphysical fear that 7-11 "alleged meat products" equal life. And the mustard would make me offensively flatulent, too :eek:

Or is it better than Fugazi? What is the taste of a Steady Diet of Nothing? :cool:

* * * * *

Truestory--

I'm sorry, but this really gets me:

* "The analogy doesn't work because it assumes no information - it ignores all of the documented information available to us concerning Jesus Christ and God's great gift of salvation."

* "I have a real basis for making my decision, MoonCat. What's yours?"

* " ....which ever color represents God's well-documented offer of salvation is the one I pick. "

Now, I realize you really don't understand the idea that your fact is faith in the sense that other things aren't. Certainly there is a leap of faith required to believe anything. But the simple fact is that the above statements only reflect the truth as you wish desperately to be. To paraphrase Jeffrey Russell, it is your own limitation that you wish God to conform to what you desire It to be. And in order for God to be what you want It to be, you must accept some of the most fanciful aspects of your faith as absolutely true. It isn't that we must hold God in our hand and feel its weight, as we might a piece of lead; rather, it's just the simple idea that if we accept your version of "well-documented", and accept those documentations as unquestionable fact, well, then, thank you ... I've found God and it's name is Cujo.

And right now I can ask the guy who wrote Cujo what he meant ... which means I have a better shot of establishing a rabid Saint Bernard as God than I do proving the Bible. Frankly, the only reason you have this faith at all is because the nearly two-thousand years preceding your birth were filled with hateful atrocities devised in the name of Jesus and executed toward an Imperial goal. I mean, we know that some Christians arrived on the American continent within the first couple centuries after Christ. But look what happened to the myth? It got buried amid Quetzlcoatl and other stories until some polygamist had a "vision" and received the Word. Your faith is predetermined by military triumph, economic scheming, and propaganda ... all the factors of your life must eventually consider the history that brought said factors to bear. And the problem with that is that the message of faith is lost amid the chaos of a two-millennium slaughter. Most non-Christians recognize the place of the Bible among religious texts; however, to take it as literally and directly as you demonstrate in your posts seems to defy its potential.

And we know you're not responsible for the crimes of the past. However, you are responsible for perpetuating them with blind faith.

So I hope you're good with the Holy Braille, but unfortunately nobody knows where that translation is. You're stuck with those blind interpretations--notions of fact as ill-conceived as a modern political platform--until you choose to open your eyes and uncover your ears. See with your heart, and listen to what the universe whispers to your soul. Otherwise, you're lost in your delusions of truth, inspired by a God you cannot know, and therefore cannot truly trust, and left to stand on an island shouting strange, nonsensical words to a world that's tired of listening.

So, even though I'm quite sure you think you've been through this before:

* What is the "well-documented", "real basis" by which you've made your alleged decision?

And I'm hoping you have something more than a single anthology of religious folklore and speculation to support your notions. Not that there's a whole lot wrong with religious folklore and speculation, but it has to be part of something that can support itself. There are non-Christians at this forum who are demonstrating greater interest in disseminating the supporting materials for the Bible ... after all, they want peace as badly as anyone else ... they're just not willing to sell it short for a cheap promise. Such minds as these can be romanced, wooed, and seduced ... but they're not hookers, and they're not going to take the first reasonable offer pitched at them. It won't be cash that buys such souls, nor will it be promises that must stand only on the merit that such promises might possibly, at one time, have been made. Rather, it will be comfort in knowing that one did as much as they could to figure it out and never shut the door on God by saying there was anything that God could not be.

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
truestory,

There are many Christians, including myself, who do not attend a church of bricks and mortar.

But you do ascribe to the faith, don't you? After all, if you had the option of making up your mind after you die, then perhaps Christianity wouldn't be so, oh, wide-spread, shall we say, here on Earth? I was just pointing out the convenience of it all, the sheer pragmatic sensibility of "God's" plan when it comes to spreading Christianity. Coincidental or deliberate -- you decide. But damn convenient, to be sure.

Like the soul in heaven that has no concept of sin, the soul in hell has no concept of the love of God... Therefore, they no longer have the same level conciousness that was afforded them in this lifetime to even be able to ask God for forgiveness.
...
Everything is left except our sin, our recollection of sin or any future temptation to sin.

Two observations. First, you make it sound as if we are far less when we die than we are when we live. Either way, we lose a significant portion of who we are. Not much of anything to look forward to. Kind of a bum deal. Personally, I'd rather live forever, in that case. Secondly, by your own frequent admission, our lives are full of sin, as are our minds. I am afraid that once all of that is lost, there is not anything left to speak of. Certainly, if we loose all recollection of sin, we loose all recollection of our life on Earth. Which makes claims of relatives "watching over" you, or waiting for you in the white light, a bit ridiculous. Oh, those damned inconsistencies.

Inhabitants of heaven have no concept of sin.

I want to have a concept of sin! I'd rather know something, than be ignorant! Oh well, I guess that condemns me to hell, then. But I still believe that a brain is a terrible thing to waste. Especially for all eternity. But then you don't get to keep your brain when you die, so I don't care. Sweet oblivion, here I come!

That is an erroneous conclusion most likely based on your prideful assumption that in your limited human comprehension you have somehow managed to convince yourself that you have a better plan than our omniscient God.

Well, that was to be expected. Nobody's pride can compare to God's pride. (Oh, wait, isn't pride supposed to be a sin?) But my limited comprehension would dictate the following:
If I was in God's shoes, and I really wanted company, I'd want company that would be capable of doing something more interesting than licking my rectum 24/7. I'd want somebody who is equally informed, and capable of disagreement. I certainly wouldn't rob my company of any knowledge, or any part of themselves, just for the privilege of joining me. In fact, I'd teach them absolutely everything I know, including about the sins that I myself defined and established. (The sins which, by the way, came out of <u>my</u> sick little mind, and to which I am privy in a very unique way, and of which I therefore cannot claim myself to be "free.")

But then, were I in God's shoes and truly all-loving, then I would create a universe devoid of hate in the first place. Why breed torment? Why create hell? Why define sin? After all, in heaven sin is not defined anyway, and that's where you are personally hoping to spend all eternity, right? So why did you ever have to learn about sin in the first place, if as soon as you die you are going to forget all about it?

But then, if I were in God's shoes and nevertheless happened to, say, by accident, create a universe capable of evil (and was unable to undo my booboo) -- then at least I would give my little baby souls all the leeway I could think of -- in life and in death -- to find their way back to me (while it's unclear why I ever sent them away in the first place... And increasingly more of them as time goes by, apparently. I must be having a soul diarrhea or something. I mean come on, is 6 billion really healthy? I mean, talk about a crowd! Poor heaven! So much for being able to hear myself think...)

But then, were I truly in God's shoes, I'd find it very hard to understand why I would ever want to create some convoluted thing like the universe, which will only exist for an imperceptible blink of a moment within my infinite existence. If I ever had urges to do something like that, I'd create myself a nice shrink, and attend a few consultations.

I happen to believe that God's plan is better than yours.

Oh gee, I'm shocked. But then you are a bit biased after all, aren't you? Just a teeny-weeny little bit, perhaps? Though if I truly was in God's shoes, my first order of business would be to reduce myself to a mere human for all eternity. It's much more fun to be lost, than to have all the answers. But you are right, it's beyond my limited mind to understand how you can be so convinced of your particular mythology. In fact, I can empathise with your God to no greater extent, than I can with Osiris. So, as to whose plan is really best, I'll leave it to your expert judgement. Personally, I don't even pretend to try. After all, you know I am not gullible enough to take any religion seriously in the first place.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 02, 2000).]
 
Truestory~

You may have been in God's waiting room, but I've never gotten that invitation. Perhaps it's lost in the cosmic mail system?

Jesus came to earth...TWO THOUSAND YEARS ago. That horse has never clip-clopped his way past my landscape, so I've never heard it from the horses mouth. I looked for a horse, and found one - but it's a different color than the one you believe in. The record you speak of, which I assume you mean the bible, is so convoluted, twisted, chopped apart & put back together, and translated from translated translations that I don't see how anyone can understand that thing, really. I mean, sure, you can interpret it to the best of your ability, but you can't be sure 100% if that's even right or not.

So, no, truestory, I disagree with you. That horse has NEVER spoken to me, I have NOT received that information from anyone that wasn't a regular ol' human. When I say "straight from the horses mouth", I mean "STRAIGHT", not through some book that's been raped over and over through the centuries.

"no information" - well, see above. The information that I have is not consistent, nor trustworthy. Trying to wade through the bible is worse than reading the IRS tax law documentation!!!

And, yes, I do have a real basis for making my decision. The planet under our feet is about as real and solid as it gets. The path I follow happens to be one of the oldest paths there are, beaten down by many good feet way before your savior was placed on a cross. These are incidental to the reason I chose witchcraft, however. In fact, I can't really say that I am the one that chose witchcraft, it seems to be that witchcraft reached out and found me. I developed my own, independant view on how the world works. I began to feel like I was on the cusp of some kind of spiritual discovery. I meditated, and thought, and pondered what it could be. I couldn't figure it out, it was nothing I had ever come accross, anywhere. I lit a candle and asked for the powers that be to show me the path I was on. (Great opportunity, by the way, for your horse to tap me on the shoulder - but it didn't) I continued to light this candle, and would try to focus my awareness outwards, trying to sense...anything. And then I stumbled upon witchcraft, and just about melted when I did. It felt like I was home, I had found my niche, my place, my path. And this is something that seems to be common to the pagan experience. I have read my story over and over from many others that have found this same path.

You say you have had contact with your God, well I too have had contact, with my Goddess. No screaming demons flying at my head, She appeared to me in a dream, and was kind enough to speak to me that night. I didn't neccessarily like what I heard from Her (She gave me a bit of a lecture, actually), but I could not mistake Who I was speaking to. The power and love from Her was unmistakable. I have met the Mother of my soul, and She is very, very real.

Jesus/God, on the other hand, was mute, even when I opened the spiritual doors and invited anyone carrying the truth inside. This indicates to me that either he/they don't exist, or they don't care to speak to me. Either way, I feel no loss. I have the embrace of the Earth to warm me, I need nothing more.

And before I start waxing poetic about the beauty and light, love and power...lalalalala...

Nope, Truestory, you can't just say "whichever food is..." You gotta pick just one or the other, without any more information than that. You see, I am asking you to make the same choice Christians are asking me to make. I don't have the faith in the supposedly well documented :rolleyes: offer of salvation, nor direct communication with the diety you speak so highly of. I have lots of people, pointing to two different plates of food and telling me which one THEY think is the right one.

Maybe I can broaden the analogy a bit, let me go ahead and give you more information; there's a placard next to the blue food, and it says something. The handwriting is blurry and shakey, and there's some words mixed in you don't know what they even mean. But it seems to indicate that the blue food is the good one. Most of the people trying to convince you one way or the other are pointing at the blue food. But there's still no way to know 100% which is which. You have to guess, and hope you guessed right.

Do you go for blue, or green? I couldn't decide, so I went out and grew my own damn food. :) As it turns out, the food I grow nourishes me perfectly, I feel no need to go back into that room with the plates of colored goo and try to play a tricky guessing game. I'm sorry, this is sounding kinda mean, I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to make you see how I percieve your religion, and how I percieve my own.

Your religion might fit you perfectly, truestory, whether you changed to fit the faith, or the faith just happened to fit right the first time..whatever. Your religion doesn't fit me, however, and I don't think it ever will. Anytime Jesus or the Holy Spirit wants to drop by my place for some tea, they're more than welcome to stop on by, but until they do, I will follow the loving Mother that took the time to give me guidance and love, that speaks to me in so many ways. She will always be there for me, I have no doubt.

Heh, heh, on a sidleline, and it might either shock you or just interest you, but I do have a Catholic Rosary as part of my altar. :) It is the one my mother used to pray for me when I was hospitalized as a babe. She poured love and hope into it during those scarey years, then gave it to me when I got married. For 3 1/2 years, I just left it in my jewelry box, I didn't know what to do with it. It seemed sacreligious to hang it up or something (since I don't believe the little guy on the cross was anything but a man), so there it lay. Recently, I realized that it's not the symbol ON the rosary that matters, it's the symbol of the rosary - as a loving spiritual gift from my mother - that matters. So I hung it up above my altar, as a reminder of the love I also have right here on Earth. I am lucky, lucky, lucky enough to have two mothers that love me - a mother of my flesh, and a mother of my soul. :) What more could anyone ask for?
 
MoonCat,

Maybe I missed it but, what "waiting room" were you in when you decided to believe in gods and godesses? And when, exactly was it that they came to earth? And what was it that came directly from the mouths of these horses when they trotted by your landscape?

You see, there is nothing concrete for you to even "attempt" to interpret and you say that you can't decide what to believe without solid proof? Well, you have already solidly proved yourself contradictory becuse you have already decided what to believe based on "nothing" but what was made up in people's minds before God revealed the truth to us in demonstrable and physical manner.

(BTW - I understand the IRS tax code, too).

You found your gods and godesses at a time when your footing became unsure and you "stumbled" into them. Did you hit your head on a rock on the way down?

No, MoonCat, there are many of us who don't have to pick one of your colored foods nor grow our own because you "say" that no information is available or because you "say" that the information that is available is blurry.

There are many who have taken the time to read and understand God's "direct" message concerning salvation which you choose to ignore or to look at with an undiscerning eye.

There are many, including myself, who can see God in the physical realm of this universe... God, the true creator of those things in nature which you choose to personify as gods and godesses.

Those who have become more sure-footed and who can see the information that is available more clearly do not have to "settle" for the stab in the dark which you offer.
 
Truestory~

Yup you did miss it. :)

I was in no cosmic waiting room. I don't need one, because I'm not being asked to make any blind choices. Christianity, as far as I can tell, IS asking me to make blind choices. To to "un-blind" the choice, I theorized a "waiting room" where you get to meet God face to face would be sufficient.

They need not "come to earth" - they ARE the earth. They are the life spark that gives us our existance. They are the rocks, shrubs, trees, animals, the air, the water, the soil under our feet, the universe at large. Nothing?? You smokin' something??

Each time I breathe in, I cannot help but inhale a bit of the God and Goddess, I am made of the same stuff as they are, and so is everyone and everything. We are not seperate from the Dieties, we are merely a part of the whole that they also are part of. I was unaware of that relationship, now it has been made obvious to me.

And I do take your quote here to be a little offensive:

"You see, there is nothing concrete for you to even "attempt" to interpret and you say that you can't decide what to believe without solid proof? Well, you have already solidly proved yourself contradictory becuse you have already decided what to believe based on "nothing" but what was made up in people's minds before God revealed the truth to us in demonstrable and physical manner."

Nothing concrete? Heh, heh, heh, how about concrete? Concrete is made of earth, which is part of the universe, which is part of the whole... :) Concrete is my concrete proof, in a matter of speaking. LOL.

Based on "Nothing"?? I refer you to the planet under your feet, the progression of the seasons, the lay lines of energy spread over the earth, Stonehenge, the pyramids, true psychic experiences, holistic medicine, kirilian (sp?) photography, ad nauseum.

Not only that, but the fact that almost identical beliefs were spread all over the globe before Christianity came along and had to be forced down the peasants throats, with threats of death and torture on the earthly plane, and eternal pits of fire on the astral plane. How is it that so many people found the same truth?

And, "Made up in people's minds" - well, I present to you that Christianity is naught but the insane ravings of an illegitimate son of a peasant. You want to make assertations like that, go ahead, but be careful, those same assertations can be applied to Christianity just as well. Only difference is that your myths and tales are written in a single book, whereas mine were passed down orally through the ages.

Moving right along...

You are either misunderstanding me, or just trying to twist things around. I did not have unsure footing. My footing was as sure as could be, I merely asked that the path I was on be illuminates so that I might see where I was going. By "stumbled" I mean I typed the word "find me" into an internet search engine on a lark, just wasting time, and "stumbled" upon the Witches Voice webpage. Reading it was like reading my own writing. I also might let you know that typing those same words into the same search engine no longer pulls up that page. Goddess guiding my hands or internet glitch, either way, I found illumination.

You best watch out, you seem to be the one blindly running down a path - no rock has hit me on the head, but there might be one out there with your name on it. The fact that you even brought that up makes me wonder about you - are you getting nasty or what?

You seem to be also ignoring the fact that I opened the doors to ANYONE with the truth. So maybe you can ask God, next time you're chatting, why he was too lazy/disinterested/busy to drop in.
 
Boris,

What you did, was not to point out "convenience," you were insinuating that Christianity was motivated by money. Try to keep up with your own program, will you, please?

the obvious answer being that the dead do not contribute money to the church, but you of course will not accept that

The point is that absolution in this life is not motivated by money. Nor is it a "convenience" that God's Word needs to be spread in this life... It is "necessary" because, as explained, it is in this life that we make our conscious decision. There is a "reason"... I know it's difficult to understand if you limit your reasoning capabilities to the physical world only, but please at least try to consider the possibility that you might have a soul.

You can keep your concept of sin if you'd like, Boris, and continue to deny God if that's what you choose but... then you would remain ignorant with respect to the "love" of God for all eternity.




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 03, 2000).]
 
Well, MoonCat, if you say you don't need a waiting room, then why is it that you seek one from God before you will believe?

...why is it then that we are asked to take this all on faith. Why cannot there be the "waiting room", and you get to meet God face to face before you decide what to believe.

Whether you were asked to or not, you DID make a blind choice. One much blinder than that based on the objective reality of Jesus Christ. You met "nothing" face to face. It is not the things of nature which God created that I refer to as "nothing." It is the gods and godesses which are "nothing" in the sense that they do not actually exiist.

You previously indicated that you needed solid facts in order to make a decision. The objective reality of Jesus Christ is a solid fact. You have developed a "faith" based on "nothing" but mere human concepts.

Passed down orally, huh? Oh, yeah, that's solid... no errors or interpretations needed there... about as solid as the game of telephone... :rolleyes:

I'd better watch out???!!! There might be a rock with my name on it???!!! ... Oh, is this your black temper showing again? Or, is this just a "continuation" of your nastiness???

No, I don't THINK I'm getting nasty... but, it wouldn't surprise me considering you and SOME of the others who are "prone to nastiness" have been hanging around on this board hurling your insults for so long.

What it was, was a "teensy-weensy" joke, MoonCat. Sorry if your sense of humor has left you once again.

Geeze, it's a good thing I didn't use the word "preach" in there somewhere, huh? That might have really riled you up! :rolleyes:
 
Truestory, can you smell what you're shovelling?? And you call me the nasty one? LOL, you're cracking me up. You remind me of the mean old lady that wouldn't let me get my baseball back from her yard as a kid.

I don't need a waiting room to meet my God and Goddess. They're right here with me, just fine, and I've met Her in my dream, face to face. YOUR God is the one that's too damn high and mighty to get his lazy ass off his cloud and visit me, even when I have invited him. Apparently, my Dieties aren't too busy to visit someone searching for the truth, whereas your God wants me to come begging on me knees for his forgiveness. :rolleyes: Sorry, begging isn't my strong point.

You talk about the reality of Jesus Christ - I think you must be dillusional. If you can imagine some guy who'se been dead for years is alive and well but then tell me that believing in the spirit of the living things around me is "nothing", ... well, I just don't know what to say to make you see how stupid that is.

Passed down orally, yes. But where do you hear me saying those are 100% accurate? Have you ever heard me say "Well since this fable says this and such, this is definitely the truth"? Everything I read I take with a grain of salt. EVERYTHING. Everything I hear, same deal. I listen, I look, I think, and eventually there before me, nestled amongst the coals is lying the diamond of truth. Within each myth, each legend, each tale of might, there is a bit of truth. Even your silly bible has some truth to it. I'm just not dumb enough to think that's the whole story.

As far as my black temper goes, man, you just don't get it, do you? Let me explain the rock thing very simply to you, since you didn't pay attention the first time around:

YOU are running down a path blind. There are rocks. You trip. You hit said rock. That's the rock I'm talking about.

THIS post right here is the ONLY nastiness coming from me. You're the one suggesting I've bonked my head on something, that I'm nasty, that I'm using my "black temper". I suggest you take a close look in the mirror.

And yeah, back to the preach thing, while you're slinging that stuff you're shovelling - how do you define it? You backed off of that one really quickly. You care to justify it, or take it back? And I'm still waiting for you to enlighten me about the Pagan holidays, you seem to be some sort of authority on them.

You know, I try to discuss this with you in a rational way, but I back you into a theological corner and you resort to name calling. You have to go calling my faith "Nothing". What's the matter, did you run out of answers, and now we're resorting to insults? Why can't you answer the questions?

See what you've done, you done and got me all ticked off. Yes, truestory, you are bearing the brunt of my full black temper. Oh, how terrible, huh? Guess I forgot to mention I'm an awful lot tougher on myself than anyone else - I expect more out of myself than I do anyone else, and my "black temper" is called that because I know my general outlook is "white", and the temper I do have irks me, and stands out by comparison.

So let me muster some more anger....ah, there we go,

shove it.

Hey, that felt good!
 
MoonCat,

The true spirit of the living things around you is God. He is right in front of your face. He was here in the flesh at one point in history and will come again.

Noone has ever seen your gods and godesses because they don't exist other than in your mind. You are the one who is stumbling on the rocks, MoonCat.

As much as you would like to paint yourself as being a nice person who is open to everyone's beliefs your latest post was just a continuum in your string of nastiness. No, yours is not AS consistent as others here, but it is evident to those who you attack with your (ahem) open mind.

You really WANT to get into the semantics of not practicing what you are "preaching"? I just took that post as another one of your angry outbursts... another fleeting fancy... If that's what you really want, though, sure... I'll explain it to you shortly.

Unlike you, I did not insinuate that you were stupid... I did not call you names... I did not call your deities names... I did not say that your faith was nothing... what I said was... the gods and godesses are based on nothing BUT mere human concepts. They are not real and never have been. They exist ONLY in your mind.

If what I have said to you in this thread angers you, you might want to put yourself in the shoes of the Christians whom you have actually been ridiculing here and calling names for some time now in your kind, open-minded way.

Just because you say that you are harder on yourself than you are on other people does not make you the kind and open-minded person that you claim to be. If telling someone to "shove it" makes you feel good, then you know your true spirit, MoonCat.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 03, 2000).]
 
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