My Theory is Proven

Flash,

First, I did not say that I "know" that's why the person came home... What I said was "probably" in the context of discussing with tab' the mindset of someone who had a serious drug addiction and who, as tab' put it, was probably not rational and out of it...

Of course I know that not all children are like that and I never said that they were... If you are familiar with the mindset of people who have serious drug-addiction problems, let's say a high-dollar a day heroine habit, then you can be sure that first and foremost in their mind is getting money to buy their next fix. They could care less about anything else. In many cases, they will steal from their parents and other family members to get the money to buy their drugs.

But that is not the point... The original analogy was to explain unconditional love where the drug-free home which was prepared by the father is being compared to the sin-free heaven which God prepared for us. The adult child is not being rejected. The drugs are being rejected. God does not reject us, He rejects our sin and offers us a way to become sin free.

Yes, God is pure, dwells in a pure realm and rejects "sin" in heaven so that it can remain sin-free. Is this not God's right? God has also lovingly offered us the gift of salvation to become sin-free so that we may dwell for all eternity with Him in heaven. He also does not control us. We have the free will to accept or reject God's gift. Sorry if you see this as a bad thing!

In the example, if drugs were allowed into the home, it would no longer be drug-free. If sin was allowed into heaven, it would no longer be sin-free. The only way to keep heaven sin-free is not to allow "sin" into heaven. Will "sinners" be welcomed into heaven? Yes! God welcomes us all into heaven and we are all sinners. However, in order for heaven to remain sin-free, like God, we must also be free of sin before entering heaven. The only way to do this is to accept God's loving gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
 
Boris,

At what point might you expect to repent?

It is in this temporary life where we are given the opportunity to consciously choose our eternal destination... to either spend eternity "with" God or "without" God... Both states are eternal. It is in this life where we make the conscious decision whether or not to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour... Our most merciful God has given us all the information we need to make such a decision... Why prolong it?
 
tab'

You could try making such an analogy, but I don't think it will work because the parent in the analogy, like God, "has taught his children right from wrong, set a good example for them and has prepared them well to go out into the world on their own. He has shown them, by example during the time that they lived together, how to live in right relationships through love."

I hope this helps.
 
TS,

Yes, God is pure, dwells in a pure realm and rejects "sin" in heaven so that it can remain sin-free. Is this not God's right? God has also lovingly offered us the gift of salvation to become sin-free so that we may dwell for all eternity with Him in heaven. He also does not control us. We have the free will to accept or reject God's gift. Sorry if you see this as a bad thing!
Click to expand...
Sure he has that right.... but..ok, let's go back to the father and drug addicted children... So the father says no drugs no enterance... fine..so be it. BUT, why does
he have to send them to a place of torment?????? Would you do this to your own children, TS??? Be honest....would you really? All because they choose their own path???? How is that right??? How is that fair?????
 
Moon Cat,

Please see my response to Flash above... the analogy was used to discuss God's unconditional love for us while still being able to maintain a sin-free kingdom of heaven (drug-free home).

Not perfect, but I think everyone can understand the message.

Once drugs enter a drug-free home, it is no longer drug-free. Once sin enters a sin-free heaven it is no longer sin-free.

God's rejection of sin cannot be equated to rejection of the sinner... To the contrary, God has made a great sacrifice and has offered the great gift of salvation in order to enable sinners (all of us) to enter heaven.
 
Flash,

The "torment" is being separated from God and all the souls that became sin-free...
it is to dwell with the evil of all of the souls who chose not to accept God's great gift of salvation...
 
TS,
It speaks of hell as a hurting type of torment... How could one suffer from not being with God if they never were with him to begin with??? What would they be missing?
NOTHING.... Looks like everyone would be happy if it were left at that.... if need be I can post again the scriptures that speak of hurtful torment.
 
Truestory:

As a general consideration, what, then, is a drug?

* "Once drugs enter a drug-free home, it is no longer drug-free. Once sin enters a sin-free heaven it is no longer sin-free."

Psilocybin? Tetrahydrocannabinol?

Caffeine? Alcohol? Nicotine?

Fine chocolate? (MAO inhibitors, other mood-altering substances; also caffeine) Peppermint and other "herbal" teas?

What I'm after here is that I understand the basic line you're drawing, but the idea of "drug" is arbitrary at best, calculated by political considerations at worst.

If marijuana became legal tomorrow, would the home be drug-free again?

When your earthly time is done, and the Spirit of Heaven instills God's peace and knowledge into you, or, rather, when your soul is divested into that holy oneness, what happens to the idea of "sin"? With the possibilities of heaven at hand, will you see the acts of sin in the same light you do now? Could Heaven, seen from "above" or "within", as such, be made sin-free? We can't take it with us, so why should we be taking our earthly, limited definitions?

thanx,
Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
TS,
SO you are saying that all who are in hell are evil?????????????????????????? :eek:
WHY would God find it necessary to send people to such a place?????? Why not some other place with no torment??? Could it be because he is trying to manipulate by fear???
 
Flash... All souls in hell are those still filled with sin (evil) because they did not reject their evil ways and did not accept the gift of salvation needed to become sin-free to enter heaven.

PS - God is not manipulating us by fear in any way. If I told you that jumping in front of a train moving at a high rate of speed would kill you, does it mean that I don't love you and that am I manipulating you through fear? God has given us life, love, the facts about eternal destiny and the free will to choose.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 31, 2000).]
 
So what about the second part to my question?
Why would God even WANT to send people to hell? Ok, you say that he doesn't want to..but according you the bible and christians..he made the rules....why not just send those to some place else?
 
Flash,

God's plan for eternity is that as many souls as possible dwell with Him in heaven. God sacrificed much so that this could be accomplished, gave us the knowledge to know the truth, gave us the loving gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and gave us the free will to accept or reject His gift. In the end, the final plan is that good be separated from evil... Sin-free souls (those that have accepted the gift of Jesus Christ) go to heaven. Sin-filled souls go together to hell. God told us all about our choices. It's a fairly simple concept. What other accomodations do you think God should have made for us?

A room with a king size bed and a hot tub? ;)

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 31, 2000).]
 
Hey.....now you're talking!

If all he cares about is people being with him... why doesn't he have a heaven Plan A and a heaven Plan B....
Plan A includes those who follow him...they get to spend eternity with him

Plan B is for all the rest who spend eternity
without him... why must it be a place of pain?????
 
Flash--

A little tidbit I just picked up from a book I'm reading about the traditions surrounding the idea of the Devil:

* Let us imagine a child and a grown-up person in Heaven who both died in the True Faith. The grown-up one, however, has a higher place in Heaven than the child. The child shall ask God: "Why did you give that man a higher place?" "He has done many good works," God shall reply. Then the child shall say, "Why did you let me die so soon so that I was prevented from doing good?" God will answer, "I knew that you would grow up into a sinner; therefore, it was better that you shoud die a child." Thereupon a cry shall rise from those condemned to the depths of Hell, "Why, O Lord! did you not let us die before we became sinners?"

* * * * *

This is part of the paradox, I think. Furthermore, does the omnipotence of God mean that It already knows (a la Calvin) what the sum of one's life will be? ("I have created you as you are, now I shall punish you for being what I have made.")

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
Flash,

It's not two separate plans. God's is one plan with two options. (Geeze, as simple as it is, many people don't get it now. Can you imagine if He made it any more complex than that?!!!)

Why must it be a place of pain (torment)?

Evil is evil... There are some who exercise their free will to choose it over the goodness and the love of God. I guess it's because they thirst for evil more than they love God! Maybe to some people, it's not considered pain or maybe they enjoy pain? Maybe some souls actually enjoy evil and pain...? I know of at least one that does... He will be the one reigning in hell.
 
truestory,

So what you are saying is: damnation is eternlal, simply because it is? Like that was the only choice available to the allmighty? After all, if God sets all the rules, surely he could have made it something other than eternity without pardon? Look at human societies: we have our penal system, but being fallible and all, even we can still conceive of the concept of "pardon".

You ask "why prolong it?" Well, it seems to me that a truly loving and merciful deity would always provide a way out for its "children", no matter how badly they manage to screw up, or for how long. You claim that such indeed occurs while we live. What is the fundamental reason to deny a similar lifeline after we die? (assuming, for the sake of argument, that afterlife is for real...)

After all, God has all eternity and an infinite patience. Why should it matter to God that some sinner took all 100 trillion years after their death to finally realize the truth, and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (as you so often put it)? Why not welcome a wayward child back into the fold, why not be able to forgive <u>any</u> of that child's past transgressions, including refusal to be "saved"? Why are decisions prior to death somehow superior to decisions after death? Or does afterlife not include the ability to make choices or possess free will?

The "policy" you describe is not only a merciless one, but it even smacks of vengefulness.

And speaking of vengeance... Do you think God is capable of ever forgiving Satan, or is that particular vendetta too much to overcome even for the all-loving allmighty?

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited January 31, 2000).]
 
Tiassa,
ROFLMAO!!! Ok, ok, ok... I needed to hear that :D
Thank you for sharing Tiassa ;) Two thumbs up :)
 
TS,
Evil is evil... There are some who exercise their free will to choose it over the goodness and the love of God. I guess it's because they thirst for evil more than they love God! Maybe to some people, it's not considered pain or maybe they enjoy pain? Maybe some souls actually enjoy evil and pain...? I know of at least one that does... He will be the one reigning in hell.
Click to expand...
Well, it seems to me the one to watch out for is your God...not "satan".
Matt 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Some souls actually enjoy evil and pain????
Ohhhhh, TS...come on! Just because a person does not choose the path of God does not make that person evil! The only evil I see is that from God.... with his so called choice of free will... the "Do it my way or you will suffer for eternity"
This is a display of unconditional love??
Oh..I get it... I love you..but, because you won't play MY way..I'm gonna make you suffer!
Ha, and you wonder why people have a hard time understanding the bible????
 
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