Muslim cultural center near 9/11 site causes distress

[Michael]

Lucy,

That's good (you should note I didn't say HATE, I said don't like).

How would you explain the 1950s Bugs Bunny Hussan Chop character?
Why is it that Muslims are often (or always) portrayed as nut-job Terrorists in the movies and TV (well before 9/11)?

I will agree that 99% of most Americans didn't know anything about Islam before 9/11. Most wouldn't have heard of Muslims and not cared one way or another. Americans cared as much about Islam and Muslims then as they do about Communism and Vietnam today - not much. We have an extremely short memory. BUT when pushed, most would say Communism sucks. I bet in 20 years Islam won't mean anything to Americans.

 

[Michael]

Americans in general, simply don't like Islam. Never had and probably never will.

Absolute Bullshit! Never in all my life have I ever come across New Yorkers having a problem with muslims. NEVER! Not before 9/11 and not after.

Do you "like" Islam?

I mean, when you think about Islam do you think to yourself: This is something I LIKE. I think it's pretty good and kind of cool. How about Buddhism? What about Shinto? Hindu?


I maintain most Americans do not like Islam. They never did and they probably never will. At best they won't care. At worse they'll despise it. For now most do not like it. In the future, they'll go back to not caring.

 

[pjdude1219]

Pj stop trolling. You don't know anything about NY.

it was a joke. and yes i know quite a bit about the city. you need to not be so touchy.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Why Michael is Bugs Bunny the mayor of NY? Please don't bring up bugs bunny to support your claim that New York is anti-islamic. It was a stupid inaccurate statement

 

[pjdude1219]

That's good. But, how would you explain the 1950s Bugs Bunny Hussan Chop character? Why is it that Muslims are often (or always) portrayed as nut-job Terrorists in the movies and TV (well before 9/11)?

I will agree that 99% of most Americans didn't know anything about Islam before 9/11. Most wouldn't have heard of Muslims and not cared one way or another. Americans cared as much about Islam and Muslims then as they do about Communism and Vietnam today - not much. We have an extremely short memory. BUT when pushed, most would say Communism sucks. I bet in 20 years Islam won't mean anything to Americans.

because most ethnic characters play to the viewers bigotries.

 

[S.A.M.]

That's good. But, how would you explain the 1950s Bugs Bunny Hussan Chop character? Why is it that Muslims are often (or always) portrayed as nut-job Terrorists in the movies and TV (well before 9/11)?

I will agree that 99% of most Americans didn't know anything about Islam before 9/11. Most wouldn't have heard of Muslims and not cared one way or another. Americans cared as much about Islam and Muslims then as they do about Communism and Vietnam today - not much. We have an extremely short memory. BUT when pushed, most would say Communism sucks. I bet in 20 years Islam won't mean anything to Americans.

Recommended reading:

1 Orientalism : Edward Said
2. Reel Bad Arabs : Jack Shaheen
3. American School Textbooks: How They Portrayed the Middle East from 1898 to 1994

 

[Michael]

9/11 was a result of US policies of more than 60 years duration.

I'm not so sure. Even though the "event" of 9/11 was spectacular, the people behind it were a couple of goat-f*ckers living in caves in Afghanistan who pimped out a handful of naive Saudis kids.

In a real sense this could be compared to the Manson family or Jim Jones.

Anyway, most Muslims have had and still have an overall good picture of the USA. The shinning citadel on the hill so to speak. Most Muslims with half a chance would LOVE to send their kids to our top Universities and would love to have a good job and live in a big house - just like most Americans/people.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Do you "like" Islam?

I mean, when you think about Islam do you think to yourself: This is something I LIKE. I think it's pretty good and kind of cool. How about Buddhism? What about Shinto? Hindu?


I maintain most Americans do not like Islam. They never did and they probably never will. At best they won't care. At worse they'll despise it. For now most do not like it. In the future, they'll go back to not caring.

I'm indifferent towards Islam in general. I'm just as indifferent towards Buddhism even while I live in a buddhist country outside of the fact that I find the golden temples to be a pretty glimmering sight under the hot sun you won't find me curious enough to explore them for more than the artistic appeal. Same goes for churches and mosques and Hindu temples. Oh I have a large wooden Ganesha I purchased in India but it has no more significance than the masks I own from New Zealand.

Most americans don't have to think about 'islam', most americans don't know anything about it. Most americans probably walk by mosques in their own community without even knowing its a mosque. Europe has a different relationship with their muslims than americans do. Like I said if the muslim center were a few blocks further uptown no one would have even noticed.

 

[Michael]

because most ethnic characters play to the viewers bigotries.

And that's my point. Muslim's are always portrayed as violent idiots. Jews are greedy and crafty. Germans are stiff and exact and never laugh. Japanese like to eat lice and live in the shitty. Buddhists live in a state of Nirvana. Mexicans are lazy. Africans scam the system.

I'm not arguing people (including Americans) don't stereotype (for most people "thinking" is so much easier when you don't actually have to do it). I'm wondering why Muslim's have their stereotype as overtly religions and violent?

 

[Pandaemoni]

Absolute Bullshit! Never in all my life have I ever come across New Yorkers having a problem with muslims. NEVER! Not before 9/11 and not after.

As a lifelong New Yorker, I can say that after 9/11 I knew plenty. The talk of turning everything from North Africa to Afghhanistan "into a single sheet of glass" was raised many times in the weeks following. Sikh cabbies felt the need to get the word out that Sikhs are not muslims.

That passed within a few weeks, but there was an ugly moment.

That said, NY is the most tolerant city I have ever lived in, and unlike Chicago, isn't a haven for aggressive bums and panhandlers, but enough about Chicago's upper crust...

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The fervor in favor of war towards those countries does not extend towards feelings of antipathy towards muslim citizens and their mosques in NY. Europe on the other hand was fiercely against these wars but they have a huge clash between themselves and their muslim immigrants. NY hasn't banned the veil and NY isn't against the building of mosques or minarets.

 

[pjdude1219]

As a lifelong New Yorker, I can say that after 9/11 I knew plenty. The talk of turning everything from North Africa to Afghhanistan "into a single sheet of glass" was raised many times in the weeks following. Sikh cabbies felt the need to get the word out that Sikhs are not muslims.

That passed within a few weeks, but there was an ugly moment.

That said, NY is the most tolerant city I have ever lived in, and unlike Chicago, isn't a haven for aggressive bums and panhandlers, but enough about Chicago's upper crust...

you recognized exactly what I was doing. playing off the rivalry between the 2 cities.

 

[Michael]

American School Textbooks: How They Portrayed the Middle East from 1898 to 1994

This reminds me of an authentic American History book I personally owned (burned in a house fire ). Chapter 1 was literally called: The Savage Indian. And had some drawings of Native Americans looking, oddly enough, like Africans. I've seen this exact same sort of portal of Japanese in a picture showing the Japanese signing a trade treaty with Captain Perry. Again, the Japanese, oddly enough, look just like small savage looking Africans.

Now an African American is POTUS.
Native Americans are noble.
Japanese are intelligent and industrious.

I'm indifferent towards Islam in general. I'm just as indifferent towards Buddhism even while I live in a buddhist country outside of the fact that I find the golden temples to be a pretty glimmering sight under the hot sun you won't find me curious enough to explore them for more than the artistic appeal. Same goes for churches and mosques and Hindu temples. Oh I have a large wooden Ganesha I purchased in India but it has no more significance than the masks I own from New Zealand.

Most americans don't have to think about 'islam', most americans don't know anything about it. Most americans probably walk by mosques in their own community without even knowing its a mosque. Europe has a different relationship with their muslims than americans do. Like I said if the muslim center were a few blocks further uptown no one would have even noticed.

I agree most Americans didn't think anything about Islam. I remember a Muslim once telling me that Americans were always out to crush Muslims and I laughed out loud. I said, I hate to pop your bubble, I promise you 99.99% of Americans wouldn't know what a Muslim is let alone want to crush Islam. They'd be lucky to find America on a globe for that matter!

I don't think that's the case today. I think many Americans have a very negative view of Islam. But I wouldn't limit that to Americans. English, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Thai, Taiwanese, etc.... I know people from all over the world and the stereotype of overly religious violent idiot Muslim has now spread to everywhere in the world. Not that Chinese or Japanese think all that much of Muslims, but, if or when they do, it'll be negative in a stereotypical way. I don't think the Saudi style Burka is helping much.

Which is why I said, if Muslims wanted to make a mark, then build a huge interfaith center that teaches all religions are equal. No Prophet is better than another. No Religious book is better than another. All faiths are equal. I'm sure THAT would be what it will take to change World perceptions of Islam.

 

[Pandaemoni]

There is an interpretation of Islam that does predispose such attacks, which is what Islamic extremists base their violence upon. (We could pretend it was unconnected, but that would be silly.)

It still seems like you want to condemn all Islam for one particular interpretation of it. Some interpretations of Christianity are violent, but it doesn't follow that all versions of it should be suppressed. It certainly doesn't follow that there should be no Christian churches in the Middle East because it's insulting to the victims of the Crusades.

What you may not understand is that there are lots of Muslims in New York, living and even worshiping peaceably, and we are very much used to them. They may freak you out, I suppose, but I don't think they don't freak out most New Yorkers, or most people for that matter. I don't see any solid evidence that this is really a radical Islamic plot to gloat over Ground Zero, I do see rhetoric that suggests a lot of closet bigots are showing their true colors (not necessarily you, but you are on their side--on the side of discriminating against people based on their religion).

 

[Bells]

No no one would bat an eye of a statue of jesus which is completely besides the point. It upsets the family because of the symbolic value of the site. These towers were brought down by radical muslim fundie martyrs, so I find it understandable that they would feel miffed at having a muslim center in that area. Like I said we have these centers all throughout the city and no one cares about it so your call of 'bigotry' holds no ground, not in NY.

How many have gone up since 9/11?

Miffed?

Pamela Geller, executive director of Stop Islamization of America, organized a protest today against the proposal, calling it "an insult" and "demeaning to non-Muslims to build a shrine dedicated to the very ideology that inspired 9/11.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7481909

Now, do you think someone from the "Stop Islamization of America" is complaining about the insensitivity of the issue? Or is she attacking the religion itself? One only has to look at the organisation she represents to get a clue (Scroll down to good, loving old Pamela).

What about Mark Williams, of the Tea Party movement? Do you think he was angry at that the mosque would be insensitive there?

Williams set off a feud last week when he blogged that the proposed mosque and Islamic cultural center would be a monument to the 9/11 attackers "for the worship of the terrorists' monkey-god."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/25/2010-05-25_tea_party_drip_bags_on_stringer.html

That is what is being said about the "insensitive" choice of building it there. Now tell me it's not about religious bigotry?

Of course there would be no problems if it was of a different denomination but it wasn't radical sufis that brought down those towers attacking the country. The Oklahoma bombing of the FBI building wasn't done out of radical religious fervor so you would hardly find anyone caring about jesus in the corner.

In the words of Father Jordan, Mr Shierer and Mr Luquman:

We are three New Yorkers who hail from three different faiths but cherish the religious and cultural pluralism of New York City. We would like to inform Mark Williams of the national Tea Party and all those who strongly object to the proposed Muslim cultural center near the World Trade Center that Islam is a wonderful, faith-filled religion just like Judaism and Christianity.

Islam did not bring down the Twin Towers on Sept. 11, 2001. What brought the towers down were 19 men who were deeply misguided and brainwashed by an ideology that is not blessed in the teachings of the prophet Mohammed in the sacred Koran. To believe otherwise is to equate Catholicism with the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 by Irish American Catholic, Timothy McVeigh, or to connect Judaism with the 1977 Son of Sam murders with a Jewish American, David Berkowitz.

Therefore, please do not condemn Islam due to the crazed, morbid actions of zealots who abused the Koran and the free will given to them by God.

After a careful period of inquiry, we have discovered that the particular proposed development in question is based on the spirit of peaceful co-existence with other faith traditions. (And: It happens not to be a "mosque," as many are calling it, but a multi-purpose cultural center; even if it were a mosque, however, it would be an institution to welcome, not fear.)

How unfortunate that the hateful rantings of those opposing it cannot see the true purpose behind the centre.

Its key proponent is Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, 61, who has a long history of opposing radical teachings and reaching out across religious lines to Christians and Jews. He leads a mosque in Tribeca, several of whose members were killed in the collapse of the World Trade Center.

"We condemn terrorists. We recognize it exists in our faith community but we are committed to eradicate it," Rauf said yesterday, nicely supported by Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer, Rep. Jerry Nadler, state Sen. Daniel Squadron, City Council Speaker Christine Quinn and Councilwoman Margaret Chin.

---------------------------------

That vote led to the facility being dubbed the "Ground Zero mosque," a term that generated unfortunate passions culminating in Williams' ugliness. In fact, Cordoba House is two blocks away. Had it been closer, the point would be the same: All religions have equal rights.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/21/2010-05-21_mosque_hysteria.html

The racism and racist attacks this has inspired is quite disgusting:

A Tea Party flamethrower blasted Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer Monday as a "Jewish Uncle Tom" for supporting a proposed mosque near Ground Zero.

Mark Williams, chairman of the Tea Party Express, took to his blog to spew hate at Stringer after the politician compared him to Adolf Hitler at a press conference last week.

Williams countered that Stringer is a "sniviling [sic] worm" and "a Jewish Uncle Tom who would have turned rat on Anne Frank."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/05/25/2010-05-25_tea_party_drip_bags_on_stringer.html

Now again, tell me this isn't about the religious bigotry?

Think of it like this. Protestant's decide to build their church in the Bogside area of Derry. Would you have found that a little odd? What if the British had erected a center devoted to her majesty and the history of the british monarchy? Should some of the catholics in the area feel affronted would you blame them?

Are you equating the feelings against Islam as being akin to the feelings between Irish Catholics and Protestants? Is this the kind of attitude and behaviour we want to condone in the US? Are you saying the 9/11 event is somehow the same as the feelings of Irish Catholics and the more British Protestants? No, that's not about religious bigotry either.... Just religious insensitivity.

By allowing such beliefs to continue to fester and if it is encouraged by denying the rights of Muslims to build that centre wherever they choose, what will happen is that the feeling of hatred and mistrust will continue to grow. As it stands, it's gone on for too long already. For you to say that it would be acceptable if it was another couple of blocks away is ridiculous when one considers the sentiments of those who have been vocal in protesting it. You are deluding yourself if you think the protests is just about the the sensitivity of the site.

 

[Michael]

I'm indifferent towards Islam in general.

So, you wouldn't say you "like" or "dislike" Islam? Right in the middle on this one?

If you HAD to rank the following faiths from top to bottom on their being built near your home - how would you rank them based on your initial gut feeling?

Church
Buddhist Temple
Shinto Shrine
Synagogue
Mosque
Scientology Temple
Hindu Temple

 

[Michael]

In 10 seconds on gut feeling I'd go somewhat like this:

Shinto Shrine
Buddhist Temple
Hindu Temple
Scientology Temple
Church
Mosque
Synagogue

 

[pjdude1219]

So, you wouldn't say you "like" or "dislike" Islam? Right in the middle on this one?

If you HAD to rank the following faiths from top to bottom on their being built near your home - how would you rank them based on your initial gut feeling?

Church
Buddhist Temple
Shinto Shrine
Synagogue
Mosque
Scientology Temple
Hindu Temple

church, mosque=1
buddhist and hindu temple, shinto shrine=2
Synagogue=3(nothing against judiasm just most of the Synagogues that I have seen are kind of ugly buildings
scientology temple=999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

 

[Bells]

None. Imagine the traffic and lack of parking in the street..

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

How many have gone up since 9/11?

Miffed?



Now, do you think someone from the "Stop Islamization of America" is complaining about the insensitivity of the issue? Or is she attacking the religion itself? One only has to look at the organisation she represents to get a clue (Scroll down to good, loving old Pamela).

What about Mark Williams, of the Tea Party movement? Do you think he was angry at that the mosque would be insensitive there?



That is what is being said about the "insensitive" choice of building it there. Now tell me it's not about religious bigotry?



In the words of Father Jordan, Mr Shierer and Mr Luquman:



How unfortunate that the hateful rantings of those opposing it cannot see the true purpose behind the centre.



The racism and racist attacks this has inspired is quite disgusting:



Now again, tell me this isn't about the religious bigotry?


Are you equating the feelings against Islam as being akin to the feelings between Irish Catholics and Protestants? Is this the kind of attitude and behaviour we want to condone in the US? Are you saying the 9/11 event is somehow the same as the feelings of Irish Catholics and the more British Protestants? No, that's not about religious bigotry either.... Just religious insensitivity.

By allowing such beliefs to continue to fester and if it is encouraged by denying the rights of Muslims to build that centre wherever they choose, what will happen is that the feeling of hatred and mistrust will continue to grow. As it stands, it's gone on for too long already. For you to say that it would be acceptable if it was another couple of blocks away is ridiculous when one considers the sentiments of those who have been vocal in protesting it. You are deluding yourself if you think the protests is just about the the sensitivity of the site.

Don't be daft Bells there are mosques all over NY, so if you want to show that new yorkers don't want mosques you are going to have to show that they are against all mosques not one in Ground Zero that is to open on 9/11 to 'commemorate' the event.

Like I said would you have thought it okay to build a museum in her majesties name highlighting the british monarchy in the Bogside area of Derry? Answer the question. Should the Irish catholics in that area have been miffed over something as 'benign' as the symbolic value of the area. What if they built it right next to the Bloody Sunday Memorial? If you can see why that would be an eyebrow raiser then maybe you can see why the location of this mosque is provoking for some people.