Most British scientists: Richard Dawkins' work misrepresents science

Continue to split hairs then. Higher Power was just another expression for Deity or God.
That's only true in Abrahamic fundie dogma - the substance of your posts, whenever they have any.
I gave you an example re biological functionality there. Conveniently ignored. Your stupidity, not mine.
Current biological functionality - of which you clearly have no conception, btw, apparently you like the sound of the words - is probably irrelevant to the initial stages of abiogenesis (depending on what they were, currently unknown). So I ignore it, when discussing abiogenesis. So would you, if you were posting in good faith.

So you ignore the actual severity at every stage. Nothing 'apparently' about the hurdles that no-one has figured out a way to jump, even the very first one. Getting back to Peltzer.
No, I simply observe that nobody knows what the "actual severity" was. And every assertion you have made about it, including the ones you have linked from your fundie sources, has been false whenever it was not irrelevant (getting back to Pelzer, indeed).
Your position as materialist is that we are here and nature alone did it. It follows the accumulated odds were unity. Duh
I posted no such crass error of reasoning.

Allow me to unpack that for you, take it from the top: I am not a materialist (and nobody but A-fundies has ever called me a materialist). In my philosophy, "nature" does not "do" things, except metaphorically. There is no such thing as "accumulated odds of unity" - odds don't accumulate; odds are never "unity" (you need two numbers, hence the plural); you may have meant probability, not odds - a probability can be unity, or 1, but probability does not "accumulate" either; and the actual a priori probability of abiogenesis (of it happening, when it hasn't) does not change if it happens - the probability of abiogenesis having happened changes to 1 if it has happened, but that's different.

In order to calculate the odds of abiogenesis happening, before it does, we would need (among other things) a complete list of the ways it could happen in the given situation. We have no such list. We aren't even sure of the situation. It is unlikely to be "1" - but it might be close. Some people think so. Nobody knows, to repeat myself.

You fundies never know how to calculate an evolutionary probability. And this is a bit odd, because math is one of those topics supposedly unaffected by fundie beliefs.

side point:
"You said otherwise, yes. You denied a point I made on that basis."
Really? You are obviously twisting things to suit as I have never claimed such an absurd thing. And you will not be able to quote me - in context - anywhere, to back your nonsensical assertion
Here:
.
228 said:
"I have no idea whether you actually attend church, but you are posting straight Abrahamic fundie arguments, lifted whole from the writings of famously incompetent (in these matters) fundie Christians - there aren't many sources of that kind of "argument".

Nobody but Abrahamic fundies takes them seriously (and a few people who have taken on the task of playing whack-a-mole with the latest versions of them)."
In summary, you are a militant atheist that likes labeling anyone not subscribing to atheistic dogma as an 'Abrahamic fundie'.
 
That's only true in Abrahamic fundie dogma - the substance of your posts, whenever they have any.

Current biological functionality - of which you clearly have no conception, btw, apparently you like the sound of the words - is probably irrelevant to the initial stages of abiogenesis (depending on what they were, currently unknown). So I ignore it, when discussing abiogenesis. So would you, if you were posting in good faith.


No, I simply observe that nobody knows what the "actual severity" was. And every assertion you have made about it, including the ones you have linked from your fundie sources, has been false whenever it was not irrelevant (getting back to Pelzer, indeed).
I posted no such crass error of reasoning.

Allow me to unpack that for you, take it from the top: I am not a materialist (and nobody but A-fundies has ever called me a materialist). In my philosophy, "nature" does not "do" things, except metaphorically. There is no such thing as "accumulated odds of unity" - odds don't accumulate; odds are never "unity" (you need two numbers, hence the plural); you may have meant probability, not odds - a probability can be unity, or 1, but probability does not "accumulate" either; and the actual a priori probability of abiogenesis (of it happening, when it hasn't) does not change if it happens - the probability of abiogenesis having happened changes to 1 if it has happened, but that's different.

In order to calculate the odds of abiogenesis happening, before it does, we would need (among other things) a complete list of the ways it could happen in the given situation. We have no such list. We aren't even sure of the situation. It is unlikely to be "1" - but it might be close. Some people think so. Nobody knows, to repeat myself.

You fundies never know how to calculate an evolutionary probability. And this is a bit odd, because math is one of those topics supposedly unaffected by fundie beliefs.

side point:
Here:
.
Situation as for with spidergoat - further engagement serves no useful purpose. And for the same reasons as in #257. Do continue to enjoy arguing-as-sport elsewhere though.
 
I found an old thread on Abiogenisis......
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/i-need-conclusive-proof-of-abiogenesis.109880/

Posts 1 and 2 sum it up brilliantly and scientifically......

  1. There is more than one theory of abiogenesis, none of which have conclusive evidence, but in principle we know that life is made of chemistry, and the is evidence that the chemistry was available on Earth at the time. All science needs to do is provide a plausible naturalistic explanation for abiogenesis, that's more reasonable than the Christian version which says it's magic.

    Yes, evolution is not only possible but a fact. Neo-Darwinism explains it quite well, it's the most successful theory in biology and possibly all of science.

    spidergoat, Sep 13, 2011Report
    #2Like

  2. origin Valued Senior Member
    Messages:
    8,953
    The conclusive proof that abiogenesis occured is that there is life. Of course the other option is that it is supernatural. But, there is no evidence that the supernatural exists.

    So there is your proof.:shrug:
 
Dear paddoboy, have you further ingratiated yourself with enough ideological bed-fellow 'key members' for one day, or will there be even more quotes aligned with The Approved Script?
 
Dear paddoboy, have you further ingratiated yourself with enough ideological bed-fellow 'key members' for one day, or will there be even more quotes aligned with The Approved Script?
Dear q-reeus, a few points you need to be aware of...
[1] I started this thread, on the subject of comparison of Sagan and Dawkins.
[2] I also noted that it could be derailed and if the mods saw fit, they could move it.
[3] Despite my efforts to bring it back on track at various intervals, you continued with your usual bluster to keep derailing.
[4] In derailing it, you took up the non scientific position and fabricated conclusions of Peltzer.
[5] No one dragged you out of the closet, you just in your usual blustering style, needed to push your non scientific position, and hang the scientific opinion of all those sticking with science.
[6]As far as I'm aware, posting reputable articles and links supporting the scientific stance is within the rules.
[7] As far as I'm aware, posting an older thread on Abiogensis is also within the rules, and I would humbly suggest to you, adds to the current debate, despite that being in support of the scientific stance.
[8] Of course if you are not interested in being confronted with the science, then you do have alternatives.
[9] Obviously I will judge day by day, and post by post as to whether more content from myself is required or needed.
[10] Finally if you are still inclined to preach or support the ID non scientific stance, then we do have a religious thread.
 
[3] Despite my efforts to bring it back on track at various intervals, you continued with your usual bluster to keep derailing.
You chronically misrepresent, as do your leftist buddies of late. When I entered, the thread had already been derailed. And continued that way while I was absent for quite a while.
[4] In derailing it, you took up the non scientific position and fabricated conclusions of Peltzer.
Stop repeating lies. I did NOT derail it. Check p2 history. And as a scientific illiterate, you are in no position to pass judgement on someone vastly more capable and qualified than your impudent self.
[5] No one dragged you out of the closet, you just in your usual blustering style, needed to push your non scientific position, and hang all those sticking with science.
See above.
[6]As far as I'm aware, posting reputable articles and links supporting the scientific stance is within the rules.
What you call 'science' there in #263 is merely the regurgitated circular reasoning and biased opinions of other fellow-traveler, unqualified members. But it does ingratiate yourself further with them.
[8] Of course if you are not interested in being confronted with the science, then you do have alternatives.
You call what I have been assailed by 'science'. Maybe a study in the applied science of psychological warfare, but even that's a stretch.
[10] Finally if you are still inclined to preach or support the ID non scientific stance, then we do have a religious thread.
Point to where I have been pushing a religious agenda here or anywhere else in SF. ID folks (and some non-ID ones) expose the glaring deficiencies in the evolutionists wishful thinking on abiogenesis and further along. A good thing. Nothing there about subscribing to a religious canon.
That non-ID expert chemist's article again: http://inference-review.com/article/animadversions-of-a-synthetic-chemist
 
You chronically misrepresent, as do your leftist buddies of late. When I entered, the thread had already been derailed. And continued that way while I was absent for quite a while.
:rolleyes::D The only misrepresentation, was your own unscientific opinion and Peltzer's whose coat tails you seem to be hanging off.

What you call 'science' there in #263 is merely the regurgitated circular reasoning and biased opinions of other fellow-traveler, unqualified members. But it does ingratiate yourself further with them.
What I call science is just that.

Point to where I have been pushing a religious agenda here or anywhere else in SF. ID folks (and some non-ID ones) expose the glaring deficiencies in the evolutionists wishful thinking on abiogenesis and further along. A good thing. Nothing there about subscribing to a religious canon.
Again just an example of your baggage laden opinion, and similar to god of the gaps propaganda in other threads.
Stop repeating lies. I did NOT derail it. Check p2 history. And as a scientific illiterate, you are in no position to pass judgement on someone vastly more capable and qualified than your impudent self.
It's a shame that your vastly more capable and qualified opinion is unscientific and again similar to arguments put by creationists and god botherers in general. And of course self praise is most certainly no recommendation, is it? ;)
And I can thank the more reputable scientific opinions of others like Dawkins and Sagan, for adding to my knowledge. :smile:
You have a good day q-reeus, but it is a shame you have yet to comment on the Dawkins/Sagan comparison, who both obviously seem to have gotten your angst up again. :rolleyes:
 
It's a shame that your vastly more capable and qualified opinion is unscientific and again similar to arguments put by creationists and god botherers in general. And of course self praise is most certainly no recommendation, is it? ;)
So you never made the logical connection?! I was referring to Peltzer, not myself. Something obvious just by the immediate context of what you quoted in #268, as it was referencing back to that presented in #266. Obvious to someone switched on that is.
...but it is a shame you have yet to comment on the Dawkins/Sagan comparison,...
It's a shame your memory is failing. See #77. Also made comments on or references to Dawkins in other posts, similarly brief, which is all I considered warranted.
...who both obviously seem to have gotten your angst up again...:rolleyes:
Concocting fantasies. It's the likes of YOU that consistently manage that ugly feat.
 
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Point to where I have been pushing a religious agenda here or anywhere else in SF. ID folks (and some non-ID ones) expose the glaring deficiencies in the evolutionists wishful thinking on abiogenesis and further along. A good thing. Nothing there about subscribing to a religious canon.
1) Your links to the standard Christian creationists, such as Stephen Meyer, who have been arguing ID as a stalking horse for their God for years now and are familiar sources of such spam on forums such as this. Here is you, doing that, in post 217:
There are various sites and individuals out there doing a far better job than what I could summaries here. Someone else who impresses me: http://www.stephencmeyer.org/
Just watch/listen to the 2-minute Flash Player intro for a very brief synopsis of his main argument. Which I agree with.
Meyer enjoys the distinction of having had his arguments determined to be religious, rather than scientific, in a formal Court of Law - even though the Creationists who were defending themselves in the case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District) had withdrawn his direct testimony and personal appearance in the court due to his obvious prejudicial influence as a Bible based, rather than evidence based, theoretician.

2) Your employment of the standard assault and deflection vocabulary of the mainstream American Christian creationists, again familiar from years of creationist spam on forums such as this one - "evolutionists", "militant atheists", "materialists" (even directly contrasted with ID proponents!), "Higher Power " presumed synonymous with God, and so forth.

3) Your employment of the standard American Christian Creationist techniques and "arguments", also long familiar on forums such as this one,

including the Gish Gallop
(you have by my count made two Gish Gallop loops just in your replies to me, the Gish Pony Express stations being a selection from the combinations of Present Biology/Prebiology; Human Intervention/Natural Environment; and Protein Complex/Peptide/Amino Acid. There are 24 possible combinations, so you haven't made a sequential false statement about every possible one yet, but there is time)

and the standard silly-ass "probability" or "odds" calculation (the kind that compounds overtly invalid assumptions about unknown mechanisms with hidden invalid assumptions of irreducible complexity).

Again: Dawkins is clearly correct about this kind of behavior from the mainstream and daily encountered representatives of religion , and his "misrepresentation" is not one of evidence or argument, but rather of a presumed more ambivalent, more tolerant, more polite and non-confrontational attitude toward people that some scientists would prefer be associated with "science".
 
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ID folks (and some non-ID ones) expose the glaring deficiencies in the evolutionists wishful thinking on abiogenesis and further along. A good thing. Nothing there about subscribing to a religious canon.
I'm totally fine with that part. It means there are new vistas opening up in research. It's just that they are really bad at this.
 
I'm totally fine with that part. It means there are new vistas opening up in research. It's just that they unde really bad at this.

To ALL

Ding ding.

I have lost track.

Are we under Queensbury rules?

Or have we reverted to bare knuckles?

Who knew discussion was a blood sport.

:)
 
It's a shame your memory is failing. See #77. Also made comments on or references to Dawkins in other posts, similarly brief, which is all I considered warranted.
Yes, similarly brief certainly, and fabricated so as to not interfere with your obvious mission. :D
Concocting fantasies. It's the likes of YOU that consistently manage that ugly feat.
:rolleyes: Not really, I'm not the one that has been dragged out of the closet, so to speak :).....It's simply that I dare have the gaul to confront your fabricated provocative claims, here and elsewhere:
See the fact remains that ID and your god whoever/whatever she/he is, is constantly being pushed further and further back into oblivion as I explained earlier, simply by the advances in science and technology: That scientific fact being that Abiogenisis is the only possible scientific explanation: Life from non life...We are all star dust Brother! ;):p
You take it easy now, ya here?
 
To ALL

Ding ding.

I have lost track.

Are we under Queensbury rules?

Or have we reverted to bare knuckles?

Who knew discussion was a blood sport.

:)
:) Hi Michael.....
Sometimes certain facts when exposed reveal a lot, even more then the science content.
I'm certainly no scientist, but I have participated on another forum where we were fortunate enough to have a Professor of Astrophysics from Sydney Uni participating and another young GR theorist expert, and one of our present Administrators from this forum.
I have also read many reputable books mainly on cosmology and such, by authors such as Kip Thorne, Michio Kaku, Paul Davis, Sir Martin Rees and Mitch Begalman, Stephen Weinberg.
Even so, as an amateur, my knowledge on certain details is obviously limited and I certainly recognise that fact, and just as certainly some of my well known adversaries are quick to point that out, although mostly also from an uncredentialed position.
I also recognise as near certain, some very relevant points that I am certainly not backward in pointing out.......
[1]Science forums such as this [and this is my third and no I have never been banned elsewhere :)] are open to all and sundry and therefor open to many claims that certainly are not as accepted by mainstream.
[2] If though some member truly believes he has irrefutable evidence either invalidating an incumbent model, or supporting another model more efficiently, then in my opinion, I ask, would they really be here? Wouldn't they be presenting and publishing their grand theory in the proper quarters for professional peer review?
[3]People that claim accepted mainstream science as generally wrong on forums such as this, in most all cases, do have an agenda: delusions of grandeur, or trying to portray that science/cosmology can never be certain of these things, thereby inserting their version of their "god of the gaps"

In debates that have occurred here, it is also claimed that the Hulse Taylor binary Pulsar observation and conclusions was faulty....that GP-B was a fraud...that the more recent aLIGO experiment and observation of BH's and gravitational waves was also fraudulent.
In Australia, rightly or wrongly, we often participate in what is known as "tall poppy syndrome"
In science obviously Einstein is among the tallest of those poppies.
Certainly on open public forums such as this, anyone can make any claim he likes, and just as certainly, it affects mainstream academia by zilch amount...the old adage "talk is cheap" certainly applies.
I believe though, that such nonsense and fabrications need to be addressed and shown to be the crap that they mostly are...for the sake of the children! ;)
Science does not need me cheer leading for it...[I have been called the forum's science cheer leader, although my legs certainly do not fit with the picture of your average cheer leader ;)]
Science can, and always will stand on its own two feet, and certainly does not need me on the sidelines, nor anyone else here for that matter.
Finally, to conclude my little informative off topic rant here, ;), I also recognise that some here will set out to bait and I am certainly not backward in taking that bait. :)
 
Out of a sense of fairness I must post this for support of ID........:(
'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work"
:Bill O'Reilly: :D:rolleyes::p

[TIC MODE ON!!!]
 
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found this.........
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...CE38AF70999E9C1521E.c3.iopscience.cld.iop.org

A COMBINED EXPERIMENTAL AND THEORETICAL STUDY ON THE FORMATION OF THE AMINO ACID GLYCINE (NH2CH2COOH ) AND ITS ISOMER (CH3NHCOOH ) IN EXTRATERRESTRIAL ICES:

ABSTRACT :

We have investigated the synthesis of the simplest amino acid, glycine, by Galactic cosmic-ray particles in extraterrestrial ices. Laboratory experiments combined with electronic structure calculations showed that a methylamine molecule [CH3NH2(X 1 A0 )] can be dissociated through interaction with energetic electrons in the track of a cosmicray particle to form atomic hydrogen and the radicals CH2NH2(X 2 A0 ) and CH3NH(X 2 A0 ). Hydrogen atoms with sufficient kinetic energy could overcome the entrance barrier to add to a carbon dioxide molecule [CO2(X 1þ g )], yielding a trans-hydroxycarbonyl radical, HOCO(X 2A0 ). Neighboring radicals with the correct geometric orientation then recombine to form glycine, NH2CH2COOH(X 1 A), and also its isomer, CH3NHCOOH(X 1A). These findings expose for the first time detailed reaction mechanisms of how the simplest amino acid glycine and its isomer can be synthesized via nonequilibrium chemistry in interstellar and cometary ices. Our results offer an important alternative to aqueous and photon-induced formation of amino acids in comets and in molecular clouds. These results also predict the existence of a hitherto undetected isomer of glycine in the interstellar medium, suggest that glycine should be observable on Saturn’s moon Titan, and help to account for the synthesis of more complex amino acids in the Murchison and Orgueil meteorites.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/03/researchers-may-have-solved-origin-life-conundrum

The crash of meteors on early Earth likely generated hydrogen cyanide, which could have kick-started the production of biomolecules needed to make the first cells.


Researchers may have solved origin-of-life conundrum
By Robert F. ServiceMar. 16, 2015 , 12:15 PM

The origin of life on Earth is a set of paradoxes. In order for life to have gotten started, there must have been a genetic molecule—something like DNA or RNA—capable of passing along blueprints for making proteins, the workhorse molecules of life. But modern cells can’t copy DNA and RNA without the help of proteins themselves. To make matters more vexing, none of these molecules can do their jobs without fatty lipids, which provide the membranes that cells need to hold their contents inside. And in yet another chicken-and-egg complication, protein-based enzymes (encoded by genetic molecules) are needed to synthesize lipids.

Now, researchers say they may have solved these paradoxes. Chemists report today that a pair of simple compounds, which would have been abundant on early Earth, can give rise to a network of simple reactions that produce the three major classes of biomolecules—nucleic acids, amino acids, and lipids—needed for the earliest form of life to get its start. Although the new work does not prove that this is how life started, it may eventually help explain one of the deepest mysteries in modern science.

“This is a very important paper,” says Jack Szostak, a molecular biologist and origin-of-life researcher at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, who was not affiliated with the current research. “It proposes for the first time a scenario by which almost all of the essential building blocks for life could be assembled in one geological setting.”

Scientists have long touted their own favorite scenarios for which set of biomolecules formed first. “RNA World” proponents, for example suggest RNA may have been the pioneer; not only is it able to carry genetic information, but it can also serve as a proteinlike chemical catalyst, speeding up certain reactions. Metabolism-first proponents, meanwhile, have argued that simple metal catalysts, as opposed to advanced protein-based enzymes, may have created a soup of organic building blocks that could have given rise to the other biomolecules.

The RNA World hypothesis got a big boost in 2009. Chemists led by John Sutherland at the University of Cambridge in the United Kingdom reported that they had discovered that relatively simple precursor compounds called acetylene and formaldehyde could undergo a sequence of reactions to produce two of RNA’s four nucleotide building blocks, showing a plausible route to how RNA could have formed on its own—without the need for enzymes—in the primordial soup. Critics, though, pointed out that acetylene and formaldehyde are still somewhat complex molecules themselves. That begged the question of where they came from.

For their current study, Sutherland and his colleagues set out to work backward from those chemicals to see if they could find a route to RNA from even simpler starting materials. They succeeded. In the current issue of Nature Chemistry, Sutherland’s team reports that it created nucleic acid precursors starting with just hydrogen cyanide (HCN), hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and ultraviolet (UV) light. What is more, Sutherland says, the conditions that produce nucleic acid precursors also create the starting materials needed to make natural amino acids and lipids. That suggests a single set of reactions could have given rise to most of life’s building blocks simultaneously.

Sutherland’s team argues that early Earth was a favorable setting for those reactions. HCN is abundant in comets, which rained down steadily for nearly the first several hundred million years of Earth’s history. The impacts would also have produced enough energy to synthesize HCN from hydrogen, carbon, and nitrogen. Likewise, Sutherland says, H2S was thought to have been common on early Earth, as was the UV radiation that could drive the reactions and metal-containing minerals that could have catalyzed them.

That said, Sutherland cautions that the reactions that would have made each of the sets of building blocks are different enough from one another—requiring different metal catalysts, for example—that they likely would not have all occurred in the same location. Rather, he says, slight variations in chemistry and energy could have favored the creation of one set of building blocks over another, such as amino acids or lipids, in different places. “Rainwater would then wash these compounds into a common pool,” says Dave Deamer, an origin-of-life researcher at the University of California, Santa Cruz, who wasn’t affiliated with the research.

Could life have kindled in that common pool? That detail is almost certainly forever lost to history. But the idea and the “plausible chemistry” behind it is worth careful thought, Deamer says. Szostak agrees. “This general scenario raises many questions,” he says, “and I am sure that it will be debated for some time to come.”

Posted in:
DOI: 10.1126/science.aab0325

 
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In the following link, previously given, a Christian reveals how Sagan was instrumental in "taking his faith"
One extract worth reading again, and one I certainly could/should take notice of is as follows...........................I personally certainly see Carl Sagan the same way.

"As I read, I began to wonder—why had Sagan been so reviled? His manner was so meek, his words so respectful, his position so evenhanded. He was compassionate and affable, even when he quarreled. Certainly, he was nothing like the thought leaders of modern unbelief, such as Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens, who take pride in their public disdain for religion. Sure, Sagan was staking a position against mythology, irrationality and pseudoscience, but he was so, well, kind about it.

Perhaps it was this very gentleness, warmth and humanity that made him so much more menacing than his ideological peers, then and now. He did not attack so much as elevate. He spent only as much time as was necessary dismantling those things that posed a significant threat to rational living, instead focusing most of our attention on the wonders science had revealed"
 
In speaking about Dawkins, as I previously said, although possibly more abrasive in his delivery style, Dawkins is certainly not rude, he is just more apparently forthright and sometimes may use a sledge hammer instead of a ball pein....:)
 
I don't wear boxing gloves to stand up for any idea.

I am closer to the weakling, who gets sand kicked in his face on the beach of knowledge.

I sit in the corner of science and collect discarded theories.

When I pull out a discarded theory and compare it with the one currently worn I live in hope the new one will provide me the knowledge muscle I yearn for.

Judging my contender he appears to be getting stronger the longer the contest goes.

As I look over to the other side to my champs contender he seems to be held together with transparent bandaids.

Every thing is holding together but a massive weakness shows at the core.

Focusing my underwhelming talent on core of the opposition I detect even the core is one giant bandaid.

"Why does........?"

"god"

"But why does.....?"

"god"

To adjust slightly Shirley Bassey 'Send in the clowns' - "Is that all you got?".
 
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