Modernization cannot continue

They are not equivalent, since every other source of energy is more expensive and harder to get. This changes the dynamics of the system drastically. Your 10 or 20 years of crap would erode the legacy of public cooperation and peace to the point where organized approaches to energy (such as a smart grid, or taking solar energy from the desert for use in cloudier regions) would no longer be possible.. Enough riots and rationing, and public order collapses.
 
spidergoat said:
They are not equivalent, since every other source of energy is more expensive and harder to get. This changes the dynamics of the system drastically. Your 10 or 20 years of crap would erode the legacy of public cooperation and peace to the point where organized approaches to energy (such as a smart grid, or taking solar energy from the desert for use in cloudier regions) would no longer be possible.. Enough riots and rationing, and public order collapses.
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Or not. Think the dirty 30's in here in the US. Horrible, but not overcomable. You seem to forget that people actually WANT a stable and happy environment and are willing to fight/work hard for it. It may not seem like it now because we have a cushy lifestyle that doesn't require us to do much. You would be right if the smart grid was the only answer but its not. Power is sustainable on a small scale.

Power distribution will be decentralized. People will just have to move out areas where they cannot make power or go back to the stone age.
 
I agree many things will become decentralized, but it all points to a contraction of our lifestyle, which many people feel entitled to. I think social unrest will tend to prevent organized approaches to our problems.
 
spidergoat said:
The clear solution is managed contraction, re-emphasis on agriculture using sustainable tools, probably manpower for the most part, possibly the reintroduction of working animals, and contraction of our towns around rail and water transit hubs. Wars over resources will increase, the federal system of government will become increasingly irrelevant. We will not be as prosperous as we were, but we will survive.
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When do you predict this will happen, knowing that we haven't even worked through but a fraction of our petrol resources here in North America? Surely, you haven't fooled yourself into believing that we've invented everything that can be? Knowing that, and knowing that we are more than a century from running out of coal, shale oil and sand oil here in North America, I'm just curious how you've come to this conclusion.

~String
 
Funny how most, if not all, view the world through some kind of tunnel vision. Very much intertwined with their own psyche.
 
Running out is not the major factor in economic collapse, it is the point at which supply reaches it's maximum (peak oil). I'm assuming rightly, I think, that scalable solutions are still a fantasy. I predict no more than 5 or 10 years before gas will be $10 or more per gallon, if you can even find it. Few people are prepared for this, as a society we will be caught totally off-guard.
 
spidergoat said:
I agree many things will become decentralized, but it all points to a contraction of our lifestyle, which many people feel entitled to. I think social unrest will tend to prevent organized approaches to our problems.
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I think you would be amazed at what people can deal with when they have no choice. Adapt or die.
 
Yes, they can deal with hardship, but they often cannot, for instance, recognize problems of a complex nature and organize an appropriate response. Many, many civilizations have died due to resource issues.
 
spidergoat said:
Yes, they can deal with hardship, but they often cannot, for instance, recognize problems of a complex nature and organize an appropriate response. Many, many civilizations have died due to resource issues.
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And most of those only had stone tools at their disposal. Everything will be fine you'll see :p. Don't be such a Debbie downer all the time, it's ok to be scared. I think everyone is honestly (at least those with the sense to see what is going on anyway). I think people will just have to move out of the existing mega cities (New York, LA, Chicago, ext) and spread out a bit more but now that we have the internet (and I think its preservation would be a priority) that would not be so bad.
 
I'm not being a downer, I'm looking forward to it. The internet isn't something we can count on existing into the future. I guess that will suck, but we will have to rediscover old methods of doing things like making things by hand, which I am good at.
 
spidergoat said:
I'm not being a downer, I'm looking forward to it. The internet isn't something we can count on existing into the future. I guess that will suck, but we will have to rediscover old methods of doing things like making things by hand, which I am good at.
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I think that we will at least give a giant effort to preserve it (but we may fail). Especially since it will be the best way to spread information on how to do things by hand ;) (oh the irony)
 
spidergoat said:
I'm not being a downer, I'm looking forward to it. The internet isn't something we can count on existing into the future. I guess that will suck, but we will have to rediscover old methods of doing things like making things by hand, which I am good at.
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There is a lot of things "they" dont tell us so dont be so sure. Some renewable sources can be made to do amazing things, synthetics etc. Future laptops may be made from a seaweed composite.
 
The problem was never that we couldn't make laptops out of metal. Aluminum is plentiful.
 
It's about a seaweed that looks and feels like plastic. Look, as part of my job, I attend plastics shows. I have seen sustainable biodegradable plastics, that's not the issue. When the oil reaches it's peak, it's all downhill from there, and as you might know, the financial basis for our corporate structure is growth. When no more growth is possible, there will be a depression. The current recession might just be the beginning. That means fewer jobs, less industry, banks won't loan money, and that all means that placing all our hopes on corporate technological innovation is doomed.
 
spidergoat said:
It's about a seaweed that looks and feels like plastic. Look, as part of my job, I attend plastics shows. I have seen sustainable biodegradable plastics, that's not the issue. When the oil reaches it's peak, it's all downhill from there, and as you might know, the financial basis for our corporate structure is growth. When no more growth is possible, there will be a depression. The current recession might just be the beginning. That means fewer jobs, less industry, banks won't loan money, and that all means that placing all our hopes on corporate technological innovation is doomed.
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Or not Debbie downer.
 
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spidergoat said:
It's about a seaweed that looks and feels like plastic. Look, as part of my job, I attend plastics shows. I have seen sustainable biodegradable plastics, that's not the issue.
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I doubt any of us here have seen everything or understand the potential. Look at a thumb drive, and all that went into reading data from it. You would never have believed that was possible in 1975.
 
Again, these are hopes and wishes for technology to come to our rescue, they are not realistic workable solutions for what is already affecting us. I see here people going through the stages of grief- denial, anger, bargaining, depression, then acceptance. So far just denial.
 
John99 said:
Funny how most, if not all, view the world through some kind of tunnel vision. Very much intertwined with their own psyche.
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Your starting to see it aren't you ! The conditioning and how people don't see past there conditioning . It is like a loop . Core beliefs of motivation and all be damned if anything with shake core belief attitudes . It is hard to see the peripheral views of others totality. First step is to rid of contempt for people . That is biggest motivating force that limits vision. How to explain it . When I have gone to someone who I considered Close to . Thinking I pretty much know what they are all about . Then I see the snap shot of there life and realize I have seen a small part of there totality . They were so much more than my personal relationship with them . I find that full credit was not given them for the intricacies of there life . Because I believe the modern world conditions use to think humans are bad , except our self . A natural built in contempt meter .

When this came clear to Me I had the problem and it was Me and not them was when I realized my competitors had just as much validity as I did in our field . What I mean is more than likely not always they had paid there dues , but I was not privy or not communal enough to realize they to sacrificed , worked hard and came to there position by honest means . Before I realized that the mood was " What the Fuck they doing here? What the fuck do they think they know about the industry ? It stemmed from my own work ethic with the knowledge of how much effort I put in , thinking super human Me no one could follow . It was bogus thinking . It is predominate thinking in society . It is rooted in the competitive edge . Now Steven Covey a great man touched on this in his writings. It is were the thought is coagulated to understandable language . Win /Win opportunities instead of I win you Lose mentality
 
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