Jupiter's Orbital Velocity & Equatorial Velocity cancel?

[nebel]

it is only an instantaneous zero value, but it is zero at that instant, surely

It surely is, but that deceleration toward the zero velocity contact point starts at the horizontal spoke point to the axle. The regain of thread velocity over the road to vehicle speed is gradual too. It is not a jerks suddenly to a halt.and instantly fast again. so:
The whole equator region from the standpoint of the solar field, the analogues road, is at an decelerated, slower, longer exposure with respect to the sun, while maintaining a constant rate of spin. and
Do not underestimate importance of the Sun, the Jupiter 2 way interaction, They have a barycentre even outside the Sun, with a little help from a friend or 2.

 

[origin]

The 6 inches that touch the road at standstill, clearly are exposed to the road [view] more intensely, longer, than the similar 6 inches whizzing forward in the fender above. .

The part of the tire that touches the road isn't at a standstill. The part of the tire at the road and the part of the tire that is at the fender are whizzing at the same speed from the cars RF. From a RF at the road the part of the tire at the at the road will have a lower speed than the part of tire at the top.
Every part of the tire circumference will spend the same amount of time on the road.

The tire or planet Jupiter's equator has twice the orbital speed at nigh time, "fender time" , than in the daylight, while the rotating speeds stays constant

A RF outside of the planet will show that a point on the night side will travel a bit farther per unit time in the orbit than a point on the day side. A RF on the planet or off the planet will show that every point on the equater will spend the same amount of time in the sun and shade.

 

[nebel]

The part of the tire that touches the road isn't at a standstill. The part of the tire at the road and the part of the tire that is at the fender are whizzing at the same speed from the cars RF.

what is an RF? of course, every par of the car is moving through time together. But when you take a given section of road, say a 6 inch wall made of Dark Matter, and drove that car through it, Inside that wall, the bottom of the tire would be at a standstill inside that wall Any real nail sticking out would puncture it. A foot that you plant inside that wall would not move either. If you think of the tire as rods pivoting about the axle, you can see that the top of the tire, during i's time in the wall, has to go through it at twice the speed of the axle. In half a revolution's time it would be that fast half foot's turn to be the standstill footprint in the bottom of another such wall down the road. (DM is everywhere.)
Cars resemble planets, they get abraded in the front, Grit vs meteors, really penetrated at noon, the stationary footprint small road hazards vs solar radiation.

A RF outside of the planet will show that a point on the night side will travel a bit farther per unit time in the orbit than a point on the day side.

Yes, that higher speed would give that longer distance traveled. and would make for less efficient of absorption.
It is my understanding that it is this more efficient absorption of the footprint area that creates an increased energy gradient.
The zero velocity zone increases the workings of the Yarkovsky effect.

 

[origin]

what is an RF?

Reference frame.

of course, every part of the car is moving through time together.

Huh?

But when you take a given section of road, say a 6 inch wall made of Dark Matter, and drove that car through it, Inside that wall, the bottom of the tire would be at a standstill inside that wall Any real nail sticking out would puncture it. A foot that you plant inside that wall would not move either. If you think of the tire as rods pivoting about the axle, you can see that the top of the tire, during i's time in the wall, has to go through it at twice the speed of the axle. In half a revolution's time it would be that fast half foot's turn to be the standstill footprint in the bottom of another such wall down the road. (DM is everywhere.)

There is no need to confuse the issue by bringing in absurd examples. Can't we just concentrate on this one subject?

Cars resemble planets, they get abraded in the front, Grit vs meteors, really penetrated at noon, the stationary footprint small road hazards vs solar radiation.

Concentrate on one thing, let's not try and decide which part of a planet is the front and how they are like cars.

Yes, that higher speed would give that longer distance traveled. and would make for less efficient of absorption.
It is my understanding that it is this more efficient absorption of the footprint area that creates an increased energy gradient.
The zero velocity zone increases the workings of the Yarkovsky effect.

Oh good more new stuff to confuse the subject further.

 

[origin]

The part of the tire that touches the road isn't at a standstill.

Do you disagree with this statement? If so why?
Please no analogies, no dark matter, no planets, no quantum mechanics, no dark energy or any other thing that pops into your head.

Just tell me why you agree or disagree with my statement. I'm counting on you.

 

[nebel]

origin said: ↑
The part of the tire that touches the road isn't at a standstill.
at a standstill, or not , with respect to what?

 

[nebel]

The part of the tire that touches the road isn't at a standstill. The part of the tire at the road and the part of the tire that is at the fender are whizzing at the same speed from the cars RF. From a RF at the road the part of the tire at the at the road will have a lower speed than the part of tire at the top.
Every part of the tire circumference will spend the same amount of time on the road.

A RF outside of the planet will show that a point on the night side will travel a bit farther per unit time in the orbit than a point on the day side. A RF on the planet or off the planet will show that every point on the equater will spend the same amount of time in the sun and shade.

Origin, both these statements of yours are factual. If I stated something different, that is in error. because
The road is not at a standstill, but turning around on the Earth, Sun, Milky way--. and
my choice of words "standstill" is misleading. The reversal of direction of the point on the thread from the down movement toward the road, to - back up toward the fender is a "now" moment, instantaneous, without length in the movement through the time dimension.

 

[nebel]

origin, watch the animation please, http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/rolling.htm
not just briefly stopping, --but even looping backward.

 

[nebel]

origin, watch the animation please, http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/rolling.htm
not just briefly stopping, --but even looping backward.

When you watch the "point on the equator"enough,(thank you Australia NSW Uni), you'd swear that it swoops down to pick up the goodies, even scoop it up in case of the flange, or fling it out with a vengeance.
Quality counts because it seems to happen during the 20% of travel, but equal time exposure to the sunny interplanetary medium.

 

[nebel]

watch the animation please, http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/rolling.htm

If one of you geniuses could tilt these cycloid animations or others 90 degrees, adding more points, and make these dots travel visible from the point of view of the bug on the road before being picked up by the grooves in the tire, or the flange going backward as seen from the railway bed gravel?
would you not see how all the other points on the thread would bunch up as the approach the zero velocity contact point?

 

[nebel]

just a reminder that each of these Bands at noon should move at a different, distinct, slower orbital velocity, near Jupiters zero velocity zone. and so must any of the elusive dark matter to stay around there long. In a night time image the same band at midnight would have a faster rate, near double of that at noon.
Nebels alternative theory :
The difference of noon, midnight orbital velocities at different Jupiter latitudes showing up in band dynamics.
Image :Nasa

 

[nebel]

All velocities in the Solar system, the galaxy must be in reference to a common time frame, and the cancellation, zero velocity area results, from the (Vo/Vr) X R formula must therefore bear a relationship to that base.
Why these ratios give the results we see would be interesting to see, No strange action at a distance, surely. Among the curious results are the Earth's turning to give a zero velocity zone occupied by the Moon, Whereas Venus' night side velocity has to be projected out to Mars to have a matching zero velocity meeting/ matching there.
As an analogy of wheels on the ground for that please refer to post # 207 and http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/rolling.htm or:

This image from abc science, (no copyright infringement intended),google, fair usage.

Imagine the wall representing the orbit of Mars; On the rear wheel, the tire touching the wood at zero velocity, while the machine moves like the planets. The rear hub, sprocket are standing in for the planet Venus in retrograde rotation . The spokes describing the Venus to Mars radius. The Motions are correctly pictured, but obviously the distances not to scale, Venus (the rear hub) would describe a circle more like where the car is parked, center of a huger wheel, bigger in diameter than the radius of the wall. so here is the picture:
Venus rotates like that rear wheel in motion, but only at the distance of Mars would it roll like an extended wheel. Jupiter, Saturn nearly roll as balls on their equators. The Earth on the Moon distance, but
Only Venus moves like inside the "wall of death", With directions as shown.
All other planets rotate like balls in a ball bearing around the inner Sun, the stationary field of all the velocities mentioned in the introduction.

 

[nebel]

Here is pseudoscience at its finest:
<www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181217120032.htm> this news item, and others related, released after Nasa's flights* through the gap between Saturn and its Ring system, reveals that "it is raining rings on Saturn" Ring material is falling at a faster than expected rate from the rings down to Saturn. * (Perhaps these were well timed daytime fly-throughs.) --well,
Using the action explained in this thread, yes , it can be expected that it might be raining rings on Saturn in the daytime, but
Saturns rings could be building at night. because
In the equator region, at nigh time, particles move at nearly twice the orbital speed with relation to the sun's gravitational field, so, they must experience a lifting force. just as the rings when at noon are at near standstill facing the sun, getting that sinking feeling.
There might be other, contributing causes, other hypothesis, but cancelled velocities and predictions here are valid scenario imho.

 

[nebel]

move at nearly twice the orbital speed with relation to the sun's gravitational field

it might be re-phrased to read:
"--move momentarily above escape velocity with --"

 

[nebel]

"The first time I looked at the data I didn't believe it, because I trusted our models and it took a while to sink in that there was some effect that changed the gravity field that we had not considered," said Burkhard Militzer, a professor of earth and planetary science at the University of California, Berkeley, who models planetary interiors. "That turned out to be massive flows in the atmosphere at least 9,000 kilometers deep around the equatorial region.--" bold added for emphasis from :
Cassini flyby allows first accurate estimate of weight and age of Saturn's rings." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 17 Jan
<www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190117142159.htm>.
While the article theorizes hat the unexpected effect is caused by clouds, the theme of this thread, the near cancelling of velocities at the affected region, deep in the equatorial atmosphere, also changes the effect of the gravity/orbital forces.

 

[James R]

In the equator region, at nigh time, particles move at nearly twice the orbital speed with relation to the sun's gravitational field, so, they must experience a lifting force.

No. Particles on Saturn are all in gravitational free fall around the Sun. In the reference frame rotating with Saturn, there is some "centrifugal" force on particles that are not at the poles, just as there is on Earth, and that is an "upwards" force that opposes gravity to a small extent. But it's magnitude is the same everywhere on the equator. There's no day/night effect.

just as the rings when at noon are at near standstill facing the sun, getting that sinking feeling.

There is no difference between midnight and noon, as far as forces on the rings goes.

it might be re-phrased to read:
"--move momentarily above escape velocity with --"

Particles rotating with Saturn do not change speed from night time to day time, relative to Saturn's rotation. Therefore, if they do not achieve escape velocity during the day, they won't do it at night, either.

 

[nebel]

there is some "centrifugal" force on particles that are not at the poles, just as there is on Earth, and that is an "upwards" force that opposes gravity to a small extent. But it's magnitude is the same everywhere on the equator. There's no day/night effect.

well, it is true that the rotational velocity about the polar axis is constant throughout the day of Saturn, Earth* but with respect to the Sun and it's gravitational field, that is not so. The directions of orbital movement and rotational movement oppose each other in all planets but Venus. With respect to the Sun and it's gravitational field, or stuff in space it means that at noon, at the equator, things come to a match, a standstill like a tire on a road, with respect to the road. Easy to pick up that ice and gravel in the grooves to make rings.

There is no difference between midnight and noon, as far as forces on the rings goes.

of course, the rings have different rotational velocities than the main body. but the effect of moving with lesser speed in the daytime with respect to the sun , and added higher speed when facing outward must have a temporary stretching effects. a kind of kinetic tide.

Particles rotating with Saturn do not change speed from night time to day time, relative to Saturn's rotation. Therefore, if they do not achieve escape velocity during the day, they won't do it at night, either

Of course the rings would even be shorter lived, had they achieved escape velocity that easy, but, getting in to orbit, like for a ring, is easiest at the equator, launching eastward. Rotation helps, obviously not at the poles. Launching into long missions is also helped by the orbital velocity, not just the spin at the equator, and it so happens that the two add up at night. as seen from/ with respect to space. example:
A car tire's top moves at twice the speed of the vehicle's ground speed. a great time to shed any stuff stuck to the rubber and let it fly into the fenders, or thinning out rings.
thank you! * except in Joshua's day.

 

[James R]

The directions of orbital movement and rotational movement oppose each other in all planets but Venus. With respect to the Sun and it's gravitational field, or stuff in space it means that at noon, at the equator, things come to a match, a standstill like a tire on a road, with respect to the road. Easy to pick up that ice and gravel in the grooves to make rings.

You're assuming that the ice and gravel etc. is stationary with respect to the Sun. Why would that be? Also, what's doing the "picking up", in this example?

of course, the rings have different rotational velocities than the main body. but the effect of moving with lesser speed in the daytime with respect to the sun , and added higher speed when facing outward must have a temporary stretching effects. a kind of kinetic tide.

Stretching effects? What are you talking about?

Of course the rings would even be shorter lived, had they achieved escape velocity that easy, but, getting in to orbit, like for a ring, is easiest at the equator, launching eastward.

Eastward launches are easier from the equator because the ground speed at the equator can be used to provide some of the velocity needed to attain orbit or to escape the planet's gravity. This effect doesn't vary whether the launch is carried out at night or during the day.

Launching into long missions is also helped by the orbital velocity, not just the spin at the equator, and it so happens that the two add up at night. as seen from/ with respect to space.

If you want your spaceship to end up with a particular velocity relative to the Sun, then you need to take into account its velocity relative to the Sun at launch, certainly.

example:
A car tire's top moves at twice the speed of the vehicle's ground speed. a great time to shed any stuff stuck to the rubber and let it fly into the fenders, or thinning out rings.

Shedding of mud etc. from a tyre is no more efficient at the top of the wheel than at the bottom. Relative to the centre of the wheel, the mud is travelling at the same speed at all points on the outside of the tyre. If it has to overcome the "stickiness" between the mud and the tyre by using the "centrifugal" force, then it does so in the same way at any point on the tyre. The speed relative to the road is irrelevant to this.

 

[nebel]

You're assuming that the ice and gravel etc. is stationary with respect to the Sun. Why would that be? Also, what's doing the "picking up", in this example?

assuming that particles are at random motions, ( they have a bias in the solar system of course) zero velocity difference would be the mean. Pickup, and holding on is by gravity, a lot easier if the object to be pulled in matches (on average) the speed of the matter around it. Think of a meteoroid that comes straight down matching the earth orbital and rotational speed.
Because of the interplay of orbit and spin velocities there are from zero to 2Vo areas exposed on Saturn, Jupiter to the environment at all times. begging for an easy entry.

Stretching effects? What are you talking about?

The tidal effect that stretches the earth, water air surface too. It gets less the further you are from the sun. but
during rotation, matter near Saturn's equator, while maintaining constant rotational speed and distance, constant gravity effect to Saturn's center, ~lose all orbital speed with respect to the Sun. That means a stretch toward the sun, through the unopposed pull of gravity from the Sun. A lifting like our high tides, but with a different cause, a temporary loss of orbital velocity. On the night side, the spin speed is added to the orbital velocity at the equator, again causing a stretching because of the temporarily gained higher orbital velocity there. (two high tides circling the earth too) .
Dynamic tides on Saturn, "distance difference" tides on earth.

Eastward launches are easier from the equator because the ground speed at the equator can be used to provide some of the velocity needed to attain orbit or to escape the planet's gravity. This effect doesn't vary whether the launch is carried out at night or during the day.

Perhaps that is true with aimed-for earth orbit satellites, but when leaving earth orbit for the outer solar system and beyond, why would you forego that 30 km/sec +500 m/sec speed you already have naturally? as a matter of fact, if you launched at 30 km/second eastward in the daytime, you would be at standstill with the solar field, heading straight up in a radius to the sun like the particles of Saturn at noon at the equator.

Shedding of mud etc. from a tyre is no more efficient at the top of the wheel than at the bottom. Relative to the centre of the wheel, the mud is travelling at the same speed at all points on the outside of the tyre. If it has to overcome the "stickiness" between the mud and the tyre by using the "centrifugal" force, then it does so in the same way at any point on the tyre. The speed relative to the road is irrelevant to this.

Let us consider it to be relevant. After the zero contact speed of tire/ road lodging, what comes into play is the acceleration/ inertia of the ice and gravel during holding and possible shedding. The material pressed into the groove at standstill is accelerated to twice the speed of the vehicle inside the fender. That pick up was only possible because of the matching velocities on the road. Of course, you are right, once in rotation it could be shed anywhere.
except on a planet, which, like in a rollercoaster outside loop, highest point is at the convex side of an orbit, where the centrifugal forces of both rotation and revolution add up on the outside, subtract on the inside (the road). so, it is not a stretch to say, top shedding is favoured.
Better minds had fun like this about bigger issues in Copenhagen.

 

[nebel]

As a reminder, for tomorrow's red moon show. the Lunar eclipse. When looking at the moon, we are in the zero velocity zone of the moon. More surprising, in 1905 days, the moon will be in the zero velocity zone of the earth, although the Earth is not tidally locked with the moon.
From June 4 2018:

Here is the Moon. to discover the zero velocity radius with respect to the Earth. ( perhaps even the ecliptic during an eclipse)

(Vo 3679.2 km/h : Vr 16, 66 km/hr ) = 220.877 x R 1738.8 km = 388.907 km. The Moon's orbit Semi Major Axis is 384 399 km within 1%! (perhaps working with the bary centre would fix that?) so:
The sizes of Earth and Moon are such, given their velocities, that they would roll with perfect synchronization , like a tire has zero velocity with the road. now,
has anyone seen the Sizes of the solar System bodies seen with such importance in defining orbits?