Joe Biden and Holy Communion

[Bells]

I agree, and, as you suggest, this sort of stunt aligns the Catholic bishops of the USA with far-right Trumpies. That is lunacy for an erstwhile serious mainstream Christian denomination. Furthermore, the bishops won't even be able to agree among themselves, because this is such an incendiary course of action.

Pretty much.

I will be surprised if it passes vote wise amongst the bishops. But it's a nice visual and is a distinct alignment with the Trump voters who they are desperate to woo.

 

[Jeeves]

You shouldn't mess with people who like wearing pointy headgear.

and people who wear pointy headgear shouldn't mess in government

Many Catholics believe that abortion rights fall under separation of church and state, and so they don’t struggle to reconcile it with their faith. So, in other words, many don’t see it as “wrong” to receive communion.

They should be barred from communion if they had or performed an abortion. Why should the RCC condemn any of its members saying it's okay for Protestants and other heathen types? After all, the principle behind their reproductive policy has always been: If you can't convert them, outnumber them.

 

[billvon]

I know. Many Catholics believe that abortion rights fall under separation of church and state, and so they don’t struggle to reconcile it with their faith. So, in other words, many don’t see it as “wrong” to receive communion.

Many others see support of legal abortion, and support of people who work to keep abortion legal, as being both morally and practically superior - since it maintains an important freedom, and since actual abortions decline fastest under democratic legislatures/presidents.

So for someone who is against abortion itself, it makes more sense to support democratic lawmakers than republican ones, since that leads to fewer abortions. Of course, for someone who is more interested in making a political statement, the opposite applies.

 

[Sarkus]

Many others see support of legal abortion, and support of people who work to keep abortion legal, as being both morally and practically superior - since it maintains an important freedom, and since actual abortions decline fastest under democratic legislatures/presidents.

Is that true? Do the number of abortions decline under Democratic legislature/Presidents? Similarly, would the illegalisation of abortion across the US actually raise the number of abortions? Seems counter-intuitive on both counts, does it not? Please understand, though, I'm not disagreeing, just questioning and looking for the supporting research / numbers etc.

This whole issue, though, seems like the politicisation of the matter by the church. While I appreciate that church and state should theoretically remain separated, that's something usually for the state to be concerned about: the church will say and do what the church says and does. They will honestly (usually) not care about the politicisation of their ideals, but rather simply care about their ideals. It will be for politicians to weaponise whatever the church says/does to their (the politician's) own ends.
In this instance, though, there seems a genuine attempt to politicise the issue - although I accept my understanding of it may be inaccurate - and I see the Pope's view of trying to defuse the situation as welcome.

Personally I see the issue of communion and beliefs (e.g. on abortion) as being between the individual and their priest. It should be a personal matter, and I think the Catholic Church of the US would do well to keep it a private matter.

I speak as an ex-catholic atheist.

 

[billvon]

Is that true? Do the number of abortions decline under Democratic legislature/Presidents?

They decline under both democrats and republicans. They decline most rapidly under democrats.

This, of course, is based on voluntarily reported data (due to HIPPA) and one might claim it's over-simplistic to assign one cause to reduced abortions (i.e. who the president is.) But it's also true that democrats more often do things that tend to reduce abortion - increase funding for women's education, sex education, birth control programs and programs like Planned Parenthood. And equally true that republicans oppose them. Some recent examples:

Trump appointee Katy Talento, on the White House Domestic Policy Council: using oral contaceptives "could cause miscarriages of already conceived children" and "the longer you stay on the pill, the more likely you are to ruin your uterus for baby hosting."

Trump appointee Valerie Huber pushed the rhythm method (abstinence) over more effective methods.

Trump appointee Teresa Manning was put in charge of the Department of Health and Human Services family planning program. She has claimed that "contraception doesn't work."

https://qz.com/857273/the-sharpest-...merica-have-been-under-democratic-presidents/

Personally I see the issue of communion and beliefs (e.g. on abortion) as being between the individual and their priest. It should be a personal matter, and I think the Catholic Church of the US would do well to keep it a private matter.

Yep. And the Pope agrees.

Imagine the furor in the US if the Protestant Church had refused to allow anyone who bragged about their sexual assaults into their church.

 

[Seattle]

You have to remember that they aren't preaching to Catholics here.

Their target audience are the millions of the religious far right in America who are predominately not Catholic and who believe the Church is led by a Liberal who criticised Trump for his border policy, not to mention guns, their policies against the poor, Muslim countries, and how the Pope has directed his ire at EU and US governments for their policies against refugees.

The one thing they had in common with the far right Christian groups in the US has been their stance on abortion. So when they act outside of the purview of the Vatican and attempt to ban the Biden's from receiving communion because of their stance on abortion, they aren't preaching to Catholics but to the Christian right in the US. After all, the far right Christians predominately do not like Biden. What better way to try to peel off new members than to deny the person they hate the right to receive communion on an issue both sides vehemently agree on?

The Bishop's attempts to deny Biden communion has nothing to do with religious dogma and everything to do with politics.


Catholics still make up the biggest chunk and while their numbers are dwindling, with the far right increasing, this is all about politics.

I don't disagree with your points except factually speaking Catholics don't make up the biggest chunk of the religious in the U.S. (if that is what you meant). That would be Protestants by far.

 

[Write4U]

As George Carlin said "religious people and homosexuals make natural allies. Both are guaranteed never to have an abortion."

 

[Jeeves]

George Carlin was wrong on all those points.
Which is odd, as he was so right about so much else.

 

[billvon]

As George Carlin said "religious people and homosexuals make natural allies. Both are guaranteed never to have an abortion."

I find that the preachers who thump their Bible the hardest on abortion are the most likely to get abortions for their mistresses.

Anyone recall that televangelist who railed against homosexuality and drugs, and then bought meth from the male prostitute he was using?

 

[Seattle]

I find that the preachers who thump their Bible the hardest on abortion are the most likely to get abortions for their mistresses.

Anyone recall that televangelist who railed against homosexuality and drugs, and then bought meth from the male prostitute he was using?

Yes, but in his defense he cried on TV while apologizing for his sin. That means something, right?

 

[Write4U]

George Carlin was wrong on all those points. Which is odd, as he was so right about so much else.

I find that the preachers who thump their Bible the hardest on abortion are the most likely to get abortions for their mistresses.

Anyone recall that televangelist who railed against homosexuality and drugs, and then bought meth from the male prostitute he was using?

Of course the entire concept was preposterous. That was Carlin.

He advocated bringing back crucifixion during half-time on Monday Night Football in order to balance the National budget. Dan Deardorf explaining the precise angle of the nails!!!!
Beheadings, slow motion , instant replay!!! Let the heads roll into 5 numbered holes and let people bet on which hole the head would roll into?!!!!! Good clean family fun! The kids would love it, the kids would love it!!!!!!

(warning very crude language)

 

[billvon]

Yes, but in his defense he cried on TV while apologizing for his sin. That means something, right?

If I recall, his "apology" went through a few phases.

"It's all lies, none of that happened."
"He's a friend and I bought some drugs from him - but I never used them."
"OK I got a massage from him. But that's it!"
"I am completely heterosexual. I was on drugs when I had sex with him."
"OK there was one other guy, but I didn't _exactly_ have sex with the second guy."

 

[Seattle]

If I recall, his "apology" went through a few phases.

"It's all lies, none of that happened."
"He's a friend and I bought some drugs from him - but I never used them."
"OK I got a massage from him. But that's it!"
"I am completely heterosexual. I was on drugs when I had sex with him."
"OK there was one other guy, but I didn't _exactly_ have sex with the second guy."

I remember "Forgive me Lord, for I have sinned" but I think that was another guy, under similar circumstances. Those televangelists get into a lot of tricky sexual predicaments with the same sex, for straight individuals I mean.

 

[Write4U]

LOL, all the above actually confirms Carlin's observation that religious priests and homosexuals are natural allies , guaranteed never to have an abortion.

For heterosexual unions is becomes; "Go forth and multiply"

 

[Hapsburg]

I see. Sounds like they’re doing their own thing, distancing themselves from the Vatican?

The Roman Catholic Church is a lot less centralized than it appears. In many cases, archdioceses are very autonomous and local church leaders may hold views that are very much at odds with the Vatican. Not wildly off-point, and usually on religious doctrine they're on the same page. But politics is a sticky wicket, and what a Pope can do is not always the same as what a Pope is willing to do to enforce a coherent church-wide political stance.

 

[Michael 345]

The Roman Catholic Church is a lot less centralized than it appears. In many cases, archdioceses are very autonomous and local church leaders may hold views that are very much at odds with the Vatican. Not wildly off-point, and usually on religious doctrine they're on the same page. But politics is a sticky wicket, and what a Pope can do is not always the same as what a Pope is willing to do to enforce a coherent church-wide political stance.

Does ANYONE really care if Joe gets his soul saved by his god?

Or do they care more about the secular laws he signs into effect which by their nature go against some religious belief?

 

[billvon]

Does ANYONE really care if Joe gets his soul saved by his god? Or do they care more about the secular laws he signs into effect which by their nature go against some religious belief?

They mostly care about having another hammer with which to hit him over the head. "See? Joe hates Christians. Why, he's not even allowed to get Communion, because the Church wised up!"

 

[wegs]

The Roman Catholic Church is a lot less centralized than it appears. In many cases, archdioceses are very autonomous and local church leaders may hold views that are very much at odds with the Vatican. Not wildly off-point, and usually on religious doctrine they're on the same page. But politics is a sticky wicket, and what a Pope can do is not always the same as what a Pope is willing to do to enforce a coherent church-wide political stance.

Used to be Catholic so I’m not aware of this new way of things in terms of the hierarchy. Interesting to know!

 

[Tiassa]

Fr. Robert R. Ballecer, SJ↱:

I've never denied the Eucharistic to anybody for a simple reason:

"If it's my job to invite sinners (we're ALL sinners) to a relationship w/Christ, why would I withhold one of the greatest sources of grace from the people who need it most?" (& to whom Christ most wants to give?)​

I love the fact of the typo.

Once again, don't write important statments on your phone.

Still, though, what follows is an extraordinary exchange with Fr. Patrick Behm↱, of the Diocese of Sioux City. Fr. Behm replies:

I've never denied the Blessed Sacrament to anyone, either, and I pray that I never have to. But if we TRULY care about people developing a relationship with Christ, and we should, why would we NOT correct something that could lead to their eternal separation from God?​

Ballacer responds↱:

Why do you believe giving somebody the Eucharist is NOT correcting something that could lead to their eternal separation from God?

The gifts of grace that are the Sacraments of Eucharist & Reconciliation are the greatest corrective measure possible.

We NEVER hold grace hostage.​

Behm explained, in two↱ messages↱:

Because of what St. Paul said, because of the 2000 year teaching of the Church, because if someone isn’t IN grace, they can’t RECEIVE grace.

I’m not suggesting holding grave hostage. But until President Biden makes a sincere confession and publicly renounces his support of legalized abortion, he and we do grave [harm] to his soul by administering and receiving the Holy Eucharist.​

Yeah, that was another typo; God have mercy on the autocorrect.

Anyway, that's where it stands, at the moment.
____________________

Notes:

@FrPBehm. "I've never denied the Blessed Sacrament to anyone, either, and I pray that I never have to. But if we TRULY care about people developing a relationship with Christ, and we should, why would we NOT correct something that could lead to their eternal separation from God?" Twitter. 10 July 2021. Twitter.com. 10 July 2021. https://bit.ly/2VlroPi

@padresj. "I've never denied the Eucharistic to anybody for a simple reason: 'If it's my job to invite sinners (we're ALL sinners) to a relationship w/Christ, why would I withhold one of the greatest sources of grace from the people who need it most?' (& to whom Christ most wants to give?)". (thread) Twitter. 10 July 2021. Twitter.com. 10 July 2021. https://bit.ly/3yIMfKT

 

[Hapsburg]

Used to be Catholic so I’m not aware of this new way of things in terms of the hierarchy. Interesting to know!

It's not really "new". It's just...not the Late Middle Ages anymore.