Joe Biden and Holy Communion

[foghorn]

US Catholic bishops are on a potential collision course with President Joe Biden after voting to commission a document that may call for him to be barred from Holy Communion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57531070

Does Joe Biden still get to go to heaven if he doesn't have a self appointed middleman human priest give him the Holy Communion.
Is Joe Biden's faith that weak that without another human he can't follow a god?
It's a funny old game this Catholic business corp outfit.

 

[Michael 345]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57531070

Does Joe Biden still get to go to heaven if he doesn't have a self appointed middleman human priest give him the Holy Communion.
Is Joe Biden's faith that weak that without another human he can't follow a god?
It's a funny old game this Catholic business corp outfit.

It should be mandatory (it never will be) that all leaders at such a level of power have all their assets at the moment of being elected FROZEN

Also eliminated from any direct dealings which would affect substantially those frozen assets

They should also be covered by their religion not to engage in any religious practices while in the elected position

The President as he has stated is there to govern for ALL

Back off religion

 

[Jeeves]

Also the Elks, Masons, AMA, NAACP, DFA, HAA, NABA, AICPA, FOP, golf club, fan club and any other memberships they may hold in any organizations or associations that may have a vested interest in some aspect of government legislation and/or funding and/or licensing.
If there is/were a god/gods, he/she/it/they should be capable of settling any differences he/she/it/they may have with a believer and don't need intervention.

 

[foghorn]

It should be mandatory (it never will be) that all leaders at such a level of power have all their assets at the moment of being elected FROZEN

Freezing Joe's assets (tee-hee) would perhaps not ''benefit'' the Catholic church when the plate goes round. I would think the church does alright by Joe there.

Also the Elks, Masons, AMA, NAACP, DFA, HAA, NABA, AICPA, FOP, golf club, fan club and any other memberships they may hold in any organizations or associations that may have a vested interest in some aspect of government legislation and/or funding and/or licensing.
If there is/were a god/gods, he/she/it/they should be capable of settling any differences he/she/it/they may have with a believer and don't need intervention.

You shouldn't mess with people who like wearing pointy headgear.

 

[billvon]

It's a funny old game this Catholic business corp outfit.

I think this is a win-win for America.

The Catholic Church denies him communion. This makes republicans, whose favorite thing ever is to tell people "F*CK YOU," very happy. More happy people = good thing.

The US gets a new source of income. Once the Catholic Church becomes a political action committee, it is taxed like any other PAC. That adds about $100 billion to US revenues, at a time that they are sorely needed. And all those women who wanted to be priests? PAC's fall under US employment laws, making it illegal to discriminate on the basis of sex, age, religion or veteran status.

Win-win.

 

[foghorn]

Yes, paying tax, that would be a blow for the Catholic church. They say God moves in mysterious ways. Although maybe not all that mysterious, when we all know God is a Protestant.

 

[wegs]

I’m not Catholic, but this has been a long-standing tenet of that religion - that if one is pro-choice, they shouldn’t take communion. Since Biden is a self proclaimed “practicing Catholic,” if the RCC doesn’t stand firm on its own beliefs, that house of cards may fall because other (practicing) Catholics will see that as a betrayal, perhaps? (betrayal on the part of the RCC)

 

[foghorn]

I’m not Catholic, but this has been a long-standing tenet of that religion -

When it suits them. They use to burn heretics. Why have they stopped that?

 

[wegs]

When it suits them. They use to burn heretics.Why have they stopped that?

I know. Many Catholics believe that abortion rights fall under separation of church and state, and so they don’t struggle to reconcile it with their faith. So, in other words, many don’t see it as “wrong” to receive communion.

 

[billvon]

I’m not Catholic, but this has been a long-standing tenet of that religion - that if one is pro-choice, they shouldn’t take communion. Since Biden is a self proclaimed “practicing Catholic,” if the RCC doesn’t stand firm on its own beliefs, that house of cards may fall because other (practicing) Catholics will see that as a betrayal, perhaps? (betrayal on the part of the RCC)

Well, keep in mind that the RCC wants him to receive communion. Pope Francis recently reiterated that the Eucharist "is not the reward of saints, but the bread of sinners." It's the US Catholic Church that is trying to do this, because their conservative members want to make a bold political statement.

 

[Bells]

When it suits them.

Or miraculous..

In records of their lives from the first millennia, saints Brigid of Kildare, Ciarán of Saigir, Cainnech of Aghaboe, and Áed mac Bricc all have abortions recounted among their miracles.

“What strikes me most is that these aren’t insignificant saints performing these taboo actions,” said Dr. Maeve Callan, an associate professor of Religion at Simpson College and specialist on Medieval Irish history. “Brigid is arguably the most beloved Irish saint.”

In the hagiography of St. Brigid’s life, the strength of her faith that enables her to perform a miraculous abortion that restores virtue to a horny nun.

“A certain woman who had taken the vow of chastity fell, through youthful desire of pleasure and her womb swelled with child. Brigid, exercising the most potent strength of her ineffable faith, blessed her, causing the child to disappear, without coming to birth, and without pain.”​

While the Brigid abortion largely focuses on the perversity view (breaking the vow of chastisty), other miraculous abortions are more focused on the question of when human life begins. Such is the case of Ciarán of Saigir. Before his story begins, St. Ciarán had rescued a nun who had been kidnapped and presumably raped by a local king.

“When the man of God returned to the monastery with the girl, she confessed that she was pregnant. Then the man of God, led by the zeal of justice, not wishing the serpent’s seed to quicken, pressed down on her womb with the sign of the cross and forced her womb to be emptied.”
​

“Before Ciaran performs his miracle, there was a sense that what was in the womb wasn’t fully human yet,” says Callan. In Catholic teaching, human life begins when a fetus gains a human soul, an event known as ensoulment. However, the Church has no clear answer on when ensoulment happens.​

Now, initially, the Church originally deemed a foetus to not be human until said foetus had received a soul and for quite some time in the early Church, that was when the foetus' movements were first felt by the mother.

For a few centuries, the Church veered between ensoulment to conception. Abortions were still performed, however, and Bishops were often involved, despite the ruling from the Church deeming it a sin worthy of excommunication. The current stance stems from 1869 basically, where conception is deemed to be a potential for a soul.

But most interestingly, the Church enforced a harsher stance on abortion in 1869.. right around the time that women were pushing for more rights..

 

[wegs]

Well, keep in mind that the RCC wants him to receive communion. Pope Francis recently reiterated that the Eucharist "is not the reward of saints, but the bread of sinners." It's the US Catholic Church that is trying to do this, because their conservative members want to make a bold political statement.

I see. Sounds like they’re doing their own thing, distancing themselves from the Vatican?

 

[exchemist]

I’m not Catholic, but this has been a long-standing tenet of that religion - that if one is pro-choice, they shouldn’t take communion. Since Biden is a self proclaimed “practicing Catholic,” if the RCC doesn’t stand firm on its own beliefs, that house of cards may fall because other (practicing) Catholics will see that as a betrayal, perhaps? (betrayal on the part of the RCC)

Not at all. The pope has advised the US bishops against this course of action and it is far from certain it will happen. It's not as if Biden himself has had an unborn child aborted. I don't know what they are playing at. It is plain this will not alter Biden's policy, so what is the point? Looks like a "Vote Trump" dogwhistle.

But it just shows that in the USA even the Catholic bishops are quite mad. All it will do is stir up division: Trump himself could not have done better. It will be a real own goal for the church if they actually do it - but I wouldn't put it past them.

 

[wegs]

Not at all. The pope has advised the US bishops against this course of action and it is far from certain it will happen. It's not as if Biden himself has had an unborn child aborted. I don't know what they are playing at. It is plain this will not alter Biden's policy, so what is the point? Looks like a "Vote Trump" dogwhistle.

But it just shows that in the USA even the Catholic bishops are quite mad. All it will do is stir up division: Trump himself could not have done better. It will be a real own goal for the church if they actually do it - but I wouldn't put it past them.

This is an interesting read:

https://theoutline.com/post/8536/catholic-history-abortion-brigid

Sounds like a lot of confusion on the topic.

But there’s this from the article:

Even though Catholicism is a religion with a strict and prominent hierarchy, it has a deep respect for individual reason and choice. When navigating complex moral questions, a person must first look to their own conscience to find the correct answer — not Church leaders.

 

[billvon]

I see. Sounds like they’re doing their own thing, distancing themselves from the Vatican?

Well, right now I think they are floating the idea to see if they can get away with it. But this might be the beginning of a separation; the Anglican Church was founded over less of a big deal. (Divorce, not abortion.)

 

[exchemist]

Well, right now I think they are floating the idea to see if they can get away with it. But this might be the beginning of a separation; the Anglican Church was founded over less of a big deal. (Divorce, not abortion.)

Part of what makes this so spectacularly idiotic is that there is still plenty of anti-Catholicism about and, just as in England 300 years ago, plenty of people who suspect that a Catholic head of state would be open to manipulation by the church. This cack-handed attempt to strong-arm Biden seems almost designed to reinforce that prejudice and make the election of further Catholic presidents less likely.

 

[Bells]

Part of what makes this so spectacularly idiotic is that there is still plenty of anti-Catholicism about and, just as in England 300 years ago, plenty of people who suspect that a Catholic head of state would be open to manipulation by the church. This cack-handed attempt to strong-arm Biden seems almost designed to reinforce that prejudice and make the election of further Catholic presidents less likely.

The politics of yesterday has changed somewhat. Now it's all about right to life. While there may be anti-Catholic sentiment in regards to electing a Catholic to office (such as what the US saw with Kennedy, as one example), the sentiment from the religious right now, in the US at least, is the abortion debate.

During Kennedy's era, the anti-Catholic sentiment ran along the lines of 'he's going to ban birth control because the Church is against it'. In today's political climate, such a stance would receive strong support from the far right.

It also sends a political signal in the US. Many of the Christian far right criticise the Pope for being too much of a Liberal. The Bishops are simply preaching to the political far right in the US. And the best way to get that message across is to join hands in their rabid belief about women's bodies. They are no longer outsiders looking in, but instead have created a seat at the political table that is the Christian far right.

 

[Seattle]

The major difference today (vs Kennedy) is that the whole thing seems rather quaint (to many). He wants communion, is a Catholic, they aren't for abortion or birth control but most Catholics are living in the modern world and are for a woman's choice and are for birth control.

Catholicism isn't growing in the U.S. or anywhere else other than 3rd world countries such as those in Africa. Preaching against birth control in Africa hardly comes across as "godly" so they are basically irrelevant today.

Religion in the U.S., except for the far right, is largely irrelevant anyway. In many parts of the country it's practiced in name only.

 

[Bells]

The major difference today (vs Kennedy) is that the whole thing seems rather quaint (to many). He wants communion, is a Catholic, they aren't for abortion or birth control but most Catholics are living in the modern world and are for a woman's choice and are for birth control.

Catholicism isn't growing in the U.S. or anywhere else other than 3rd world countries such as those in Africa. Preaching against birth control in Africa hardly comes across as "godly" so they are basically irrelevant today.

You have to remember that they aren't preaching to Catholics here.

Their target audience are the millions of the religious far right in America who are predominately not Catholic and who believe the Church is led by a Liberal who criticised Trump for his border policy, not to mention guns, their policies against the poor, Muslim countries, and how the Pope has directed his ire at EU and US governments for their policies against refugees.

The one thing they had in common with the far right Christian groups in the US has been their stance on abortion. So when they act outside of the purview of the Vatican and attempt to ban the Biden's from receiving communion because of their stance on abortion, they aren't preaching to Catholics but to the Christian right in the US. After all, the far right Christians predominately do not like Biden. What better way to try to peel off new members than to deny the person they hate the right to receive communion on an issue both sides vehemently agree on?

The Bishop's attempts to deny Biden communion has nothing to do with religious dogma and everything to do with politics.

Religion in the U.S., except for the far right, is largely irrelevant anyway. In many parts of the country it's practiced in name only.

Catholics still make up the biggest chunk and while their numbers are dwindling, with the far right increasing, this is all about politics.

 

[exchemist]

The politics of yesterday has changed somewhat. Now it's all about right to life. While there may be anti-Catholic sentiment in regards to electing a Catholic to office (such as what the US saw with Kennedy, as one example), the sentiment from the religious right now, in the US at least, is the abortion debate.

During Kennedy's era, the anti-Catholic sentiment ran along the lines of 'he's going to ban birth control because the Church is against it'. In today's political climate, such a stance would receive strong support from the far right.

It also sends a political signal in the US. Many of the Christian far right criticise the Pope for being too much of a Liberal. The Bishops are simply preaching to the political far right in the US. And the best way to get that message across is to join hands in their rabid belief about women's bodies. They are no longer outsiders looking in, but instead have created a seat at the political table that is the Christian far right.

I agree, and, as you suggest, this sort of stunt aligns the Catholic bishops of the USA with far-right Trumpies. That is lunacy for an erstwhile serious mainstream Christian denomination. Furthermore, the bishops won't even be able to agree among themselves, because this is such an incendiary course of action.