Israeli/Hamas disregard for human life.

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Some reminders of Jewish resistance movements:

The Bielski group's partisan activities were aimed at the Nazis and their collaborators, such as Belarussian volunteer policemen or local inhabitants who had betrayed or killed Jews. They also conducted sabotage missions. The Nazi regime offered a reward of 100,000 Reichmarks for assistance in the capture of Tuvia Bielski, and in 1943, led major clearing operations against all partisan groups in the area. Some of these groups suffered major casualties, but the Bielski partisans fled safely to a more remote part of the forest, and continued to offer protection to the noncombatants among their band.

The Bielski group would raid nearby villages and forcibly seize food; on occasion peasants who refused to share their food with the partisans were the subject of violence and even murder. This caused hostility towards the partisans from peasants in the villages, though some would help the Jewish partisans.[5][6][7]

The Bielski partisans were affiliated with Soviet partisans in the vicinity of the Naliboki Forest under General Platon (Vasily Yefimovich Chernyshev). Several attempts by Soviet partisan commanders to absorb Bielski fighters into their units were resisted, such that the Jewish partisan group retained its integrity and remained under Tuvia Bielski's command. This allowed him to continue in his dedication to protect Jewish lives along with engaging in combat activity, but would also prove a problem later on.

The Bielski Jews, fighting on the Soviet side, took part in clashes between Polish and Soviet forces. Notably they took part in the treacherous disarmament of Polish partisans by the Soviets on 1 December 1943.[8]

The Bielski partisan leaders split the group into two units, one named Ordzhonikidze, led by Zus, and the other Kalinin, commanded by Tuvia. According to partisan documentation, Bielski fighters from both units killed a total of 381 enemy fighters, sometimes during joint actions with Soviet groups.[9] 50 members of the group were killed.[1]

[edit] Disbandment

In the summer of 1944, when the Soviet counteroffensive began in Belarus and the area was taken over by the Soviets, the Kalinin unit, numbering 1,230 men, women and children, emerged from the forest and marched into Nowogrodek.

Despite their previous collaboration with the Soviets, relations quickly worsened.[10] The NKVD started interrogating the Bielski brothers about the rumors of loot they had reportedly collected during the war, and about their failure to "implement socialist ideals in the camp".[10] Asael Bielski was conscripted into the Soviet Red Army and fell in battle of Königsberg in 1945.[10] The remaining brothers escaped Soviet-controlled lands, emigrating West.[10] Tuvia's cousin, Yehuda, was sought by the NKVD for having been an officer in the pre-war Polish Army but managed to escape with Tuvia's help and made his way to Hungary and then to Israel.[11]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans


And another famous one:

Civilians shave the head of a young woman as punishment for wartime collaboration, Montélimar, August 29, 1944.
Veterans of the resistance raise flags at the annual commemoration ceremony of Canjuers military camp.

In coming to terms with the events of the occupation, several different attitudes have emerged in France, in an evolution the historian Henry Rousso has called the "Vichy Syndrome".[155]

Immediately following the liberation, France was swept by a wave of executions, public humiliations, assaults and detentions of suspected collaborators, known as the épuration sauvage (wild purge).[156] This period succeeded the German occupational administration but preceded the authority of the French Provisional Government, and therefore lacked a form of institutional justice.[156] Approximately 9,000 were executed, mostly without trial.[156] Head shaving was a common feature of the purges,[157] and between 10,000 and 30,000 women accused of having collaborated with the Germans were subjected to the practice,[158] becoming known as les tondues (the shorn).[159]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance
 
Buffalo Roam said:
Hay Cap, great video, a U.N. Ambulance being used to move Hamas fighters in combat, OMG.

Yes, I want to hear Straw Dog, and SAM defend that, and explain the claims that Israel is targeting the U.N facilities and trucks with no cause.

Yes, lets hear from the rest of the appoligist for Hamas, video proof of Hamas using U.N. vehicles for Military Purposes's and operations.

Now I have to wonder about the U.N. claims that there were no Hamas fighters in the U.N. compounds?
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I'm not trying to defend Israel's choice of targets, partly because I don't even know what exactly was hit, by what and where. But I do know that John Ging, the head of UNRWA in Gaza, has now clarified that in at least one incident, Israel did not actually fire on a UN school as was widely reported, but that Israel fired at some target in the general vicinity and civilians got hurt. I believe other options were available that Israel could have tried before resorting to all-out war, but as far as being responsible for the resulting casualties, I just can't see how Hamas escapes the blame. They clearly provoked war by sharply escalating their rocket attacks in the days before Israel responded, and their choice of tactics in the ensuing war should be investigated just as seriously as Israel's.
 
Some more reminders of Jewish resistance movements:


The struggle against the Jewish collaborators and the exacerbation of the German orders against the Jews led to talk of an armed struggle. In 1941, the first Jewish partisan group was established; its main task – to sabotage factories owned by Jews who were cooperating with the Germans. A year after its establishment, there were nine members in the Jewish partisan movement; they were divided into three teams and headed by Charles Rochman. During this time, the resistance movement joined the Belgian Underground Army, but maintained its Jewish character. By the second half of 1943, there were 60-70 members in the resistance movement, as well as a number of Jews who joined the Belgian Underground Army directly.

In July of 1942, the Germans began preparations for deporting the Jews out of Belgium. The Judenrat prepared lists of the names and details of the Jews for the Gestapo; the resistance called for Jews to abstain from reporting to the assembly areas. They also began planning an action against the Judenrat. One Saturday, two activists disguised themselves as members of the German security forces. They assembled the entire Judenrat staff in one room, and two other activists burned the Judenrat’s papers. The success of the operation raised many repercussions in the Jewish community and many members of the Judenrat staff quit. However, the Judenrat continued carrying out its work and began trading “protection papers” (papers that supposedly provided protection from deportation).

On September 2nd 1942, the Germans began deporting the Jews from the Mechelin concentration camp to Auschwitz. There were approximately 1000 Jews on every shipment, and so during the first five weeks of the transfer 10,000 Jews were deported to Auschwitz. On September 29th 1942, the resistance movement executed Helzinger, the liaison officer who was in charge of communications between the Judenrat and the Gestapo. Despite the resistance movement’s actions, most Jews believe the Germans’ promises that only immigrant Jews in Belgium would be deported. A year later, this illusion was shattered: 26,000 Jews were deported in 26 shipments; the first 17,000 were deported in the first three months.

In September 1942, the Germans begin hunting down the Jews. Those who were caught gave information about other Jews in hiding in an attempt to save themselves. The resistance tried to stop this and even executed a number of Jewish informants.
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http://c3.ort.org.il/Apps/WW/page.a...em&_item=a2a4801b-d1b4-43ef-8bf4-2e4f99d631eb
 
Buffalo Roam said:
Hay SAM, what about Hamas's armored personell carriers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oesBeCFAlg

The Capt, has just shown Hamas for what the bunch of liars they are, and the length they will go to generate propaganda.

Does this go to show:

The Arab Mind/Honesty and Religion?
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One can find material like this all over the place, unless one watches nothing but Al Jazeera all day. How Hamas' systematic exploitation of Palestinian civilians has gone largely unnoticed to this day is beyond my comprehension. With the UNRWA halting aid distribution in light of Hamas stealing their supplies, this is the first time I can recall the UN ever taking serious action on the subject.
 
S.A.M. said:
Some more reminders of Jewish resistance movements:




http://c3.ort.org.il/Apps/WW/page.a...em&_item=a2a4801b-d1b4-43ef-8bf4-2e4f99d631eb
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Can't answer SAM?

Strawmen and red herrings....

Now, SAM, what about Hamas's armored personell carriers?

U.N. Ambulances, being used by Hamas Fighter as transport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oesBeCFAlg

The Capt, has just shown Hamas for what the bunch of liars they are, and the length they will go to generate propaganda.

Does this go to show:

The Arab Mind/Honesty and Religion?
 
Actually the UN stopped aid last November. Because they ran out of food and Israelis would not let any trucks in. So they closed the aid centers.

Meanwhile, still more reminders of Jewish collaborators and their fate at the hands of other Jews:

Eliminating collaborators

Two underground groups were active in the Warsaw Ghetto. In addition to the ZOB, there was also the Jewish Fighting Union (ZZW), founded by the right-wing Revisionists and Betar, which was joined by fighters that espoused a range of political views, all the way to the extreme left. A significant part of the activity of the two organizations at the outset - in addition to recruiting fighters and weapons and raising funds - was to liquidate collaborators with the Nazis, whose activity put the undergrounds at risk.

"About 20 liquidations were perpetrated," says Prof. Gutman, who was himself active in Hashomer Hatzair Zionist movement in the ghetto. "A very small core of people were in charge of this, only a handful." However, a perusal of a number of books about the uprising indicates that the undergrounds liquidated at least 33 Jews.

Yitzhak (Antek) Zuckerman, who was Mordechai Anielewicz's deputy, noted in his book "Sheva hashanim hahen: 1939-1946" ("A Surplus of Memory: Chronicle of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising," University of California Press, 1993) that the death sentences were passed by "three or four people" on the "command staff." Haim Lazar, from the Betar movement, described, in his 1963 book "Mitzada shel Varshaw" ("Masada of Warsaw" (Jabotinsky Institute; Hebrew) a large-scale operation with the participation of a ZZW staff officer, Kalman Mendelson and his people. "Eleven traitors and Gestapo agents" were seized in a store where they habitually gathered and taken to an apartment of the organization.

"That very night the court was moved urgently to that site, the traitors were brought before the judges, the proof against them were submitted and they were convicted and sentenced to death," Lazar wrote. "The traitors, eight men and three women, were taken to the cellar of the building. The door was sealed with rags to muffle the sound of the gunshots, and the sentence was executed. They were buried on the spot, in the cellar."

In his book, Zuckerman describes an embarrassing episode at a training farm of the Halutz movement in Grochow, near Warsaw. "The behavior of one of the girls wasn't consonant with either Halutz or Jewish morality," he writes. "The girl, Anna Milewicz, was suspected of prostitution." Most of the movements participating in the farm viewed her as a dubious type and wanted to expel her, but she was associated with Hashomer Hatzair, which stood by her and opposed her expulsion, Zuckerman continues. But she was eventually removed, later expelled from the movement and in early 1943 was executed by a Revisionist group in the ghetto on a charge of collaborating with the Germans.
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/773369.html
 
Cpt.Bork---It's fucked up to use UN ambulances as attack vehicles, but what would you do? You are the leader of an poor and starving resistance. You are fighting for your freedom. What are the boundaries?

SAM---does one human rights violation excuse another? If so, then why are you pissed off at the US for torturing Iraqi POWs (or..."enemy combatants") if they did the same thing to American GI's? Does the fact that both sides are doing it make it right? And, by the way, since when are Fatah supporters in league with Israel?

StrawDog---Does it really matter what is going on in Palestine, so long as civilians are dying? Shouldn't the first order of business be to end whatever it is that is killing civilians?

This is why I rarely post in here, because no one can discuss these issues with a straight face.

The point is, no one is without blood on their hands, not Hamas, not the UN, not the Israeli army...no one. The world expects Palestinian civilians to be treated as civilians by the Israelis when Hamas is waging a guerilla war and using those civilians as shields, while disregarding Israel's basic right to be. This is not to mention the fact that Hamas cares little for the lives of Israeli civilians. Israel expects the world to understand it's actions when they refuse to take basic steps to minimize civilian casualties, even though Hamas blatantly refuses to follow the same accords. And the UN has utterly failed at pretty much everything it has ever done, from preventing genocides in Sudan, Rwanda, and Chechnya, to preventing wars in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq (even though this is explicitly mentioned in the UN charter), to preventing nuclear proliferation, to (...). Ah, right, except of course for delivering aid to people in need, when the conditions aren't too dangerous.

Assigning blame in this conflict is like trying to count sand, or stars or something. SAM is 100% correct when she says that the Israelis have literally starved the Palestinians for the past few months. Does this justify Hamas randomly shooting rockets at civilians in Israel? Does this, in turn, justify an invasion of the West Bank in which it seems that Israeli soldiers took little regard for collateral damages? Does this excuse Hamas for it's rounding up and killing and torturing its political adversaries?

Surely not, in all cases.

Most people who post in this forum are content to sit back and assign blame instead of understand the reasons behind actions---whether it's SAM blaming America for it's imperialism, or Buffalo Roam making blatant statements about Muslims. This is why, in my humble opinion, this forum shouldn't exist---it's primary purpose is solely for people to stand on soap boxes, making ignorant points, whilst ignoring the person to your left doing exactly the same thing. There is nothing "intelligent" or "scientific" about the discourse here.

I know, it makes you feel better---you can understand things in terms of "right" and "wrong". Maybe, you think, by screaming loud enough, or derailing enough conversations, people who were diametrically opposed to your opinion may just start to understand your privileged insight, all the while ignoring the fact that everyone else here is doing the same thing... The fact is, the situation is fucked up now, it has been, and if people are only content to sit back and assign blame, then it always will be.
 
SAM---does one human rights violation excuse another? If so, then why are you pissed off at the US for torturing Iraqi POWs (or..."enemy combatants") if they did the same thing to American GI's? Does the fact that both sides are doing it make it right? And, by the way, since when are Fatah supporters in league with Israel?
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The US is not a resistance movement defending itself against an occupation. Everyone knows Fatah leadership is highly corrupt. Where have you been? what would you call a political group that beats up its own people when they protest the Israeli attack on Gaza? Fatah has no standing in the Palestinian community, everyone knows they are Israeli puppets
 
Here is a link on Fatah

For the Independent, Alex Cockburn reports that Fatah appears to have suffered a sharp decline in support in the occupied territories. This should come as no surprise as Fatah has had few successes - if any - during their decades-long reign over the Palestinian national movement. In recent times, Fatah has produced a string of traitors (or as some would call them, "moderates"), a failed attempt at civil war, and a cancellation of Palestinian democracy. Current dictator (and former President) Mahmoud Abbas is seen by many as an Israeli puppet - an accusation that has become increasingly difficult to contest as Abbas has turned up his attacks on Palestinian society and on Palestine solidarity activism while giddily blaming Hamas (and refusing to condemn Israel) during Israel's slaughter of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
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"We have moved into the era of Hamas which is now much stronger than it was," said Husam Kadr, a veteran Fatah leader in the West Bank city of Nablus, recently released after five-and-a-half years in Israeli prisons... "We in Fatah have failed to remove a single Israeli checkpoint," admits Mr Kadr. "It takes me as long to reach Ramallah 50 kilometres away as it would to fly from Jordan to Ankara."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-has-put-hamas-in-the-ascendancy-1513430.html
 
CptBork said:
One can find material like this all over the place, unless one watches nothing but Al Jazeera all day. How Hamas' systematic exploitation of Palestinian civilians has gone largely unnoticed to this day is beyond my comprehension. With the UNRWA halting aid distribution in light of Hamas stealing their supplies, this is the first time I can recall the UN ever taking serious action on the subject.
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I do feel for the people of Gaza, and I don't know what else Israel can do, if Israel does nothing, Israelis die because Hammas will not negotiate honorably, Hamas use's, the Hudna, Kitman, Taqiyya, long established tenets of Islam and Muslims, in warfare.

As to what other weapon Israel could have deployed, that would have generated less collateral damage, what would it have been?

Missiles have the same blast pattern, and the added danger of unexpended fuel exploding all over the place, they couldn't get troops in there, Rockets from a Helicopter are less accurate than artillery, and a bomb strike has even a bigger blast problem, and they couldn't let the Hamas fighters continue to fire on their troops.

As you video show it is Hamas who doesn't care about the collateral damage, in fact they want collateral damage for the propaganda value, and the News Media seems hell bent to help Hamas foist this off as Israel's fault.

These are all part of Hamas's Jihad against Israel.

Kitman: Kitman is close to Taqqiya (see it) but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Moslem maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle” and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing “kitman.” Another example would be the insistence of a Moslem apologist that, “of course”, there is freedom of conscience in Islam and then quoting that Qur’anic verse -“There shall be no compulsion in religion.” But the impression given will be false, for there has been no mention of the Moslem doctrine of abrogation, or naskh.

Taqiyya (taqqiya): Dissimulation as sanctified hypocrisy. It is considered a part of Islamic strategy to lie and deceive unbelievers by any means. Thus exercising taqqiyah is very pious behavior. Veiling the truth: Adjustment, deception up to the open lie. -Taqqiya is attached, if it is helpful to the well-being of the religion -Islam (Khomeini). Sunnis will deceptively say that this goes only for Shiites...

Hudna: The prophet closed a ten-year weapon break with the Quraysh. Two years later though it was broken unilaterely to strike the Quraysh and Muhammad entered in Mecca. Since that time the term “Hudna” designates a strategic cessation of hostilities, which has alone the sense of a force misalignment. A “Hudna” can be interrupted then, as soon as this force misalignment is smoothed finally and the way for a Muslim victory is foreseen.
 
Bullafo said:
What don't you want to understand that Israel is not interfearing with the U.N.
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Israel didn't drop bombs on UN warehouses and schools?
Food distributation, the active combat operations have ended.
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Before they ended, Israel wasn't preventing UN aid from entering Gaza? It only started doing this after hostilities had ceased?
The Israels have with drawn from Gaza
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No, the Israelis have moved out of Gaza, to the borders of Gaza (??) They made a tactical military decision.
the U.N. has moved in
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Why has the UN moved in? Doesn't it have better things to do than pay Gaza a visit and say "Hi"?

Why do you not want to understand what deprivation and collective punishment are? Why do you want to cling to a fanatical point of view and accuse others of being fanatics?

Are you a fascist?
 
Vkothii said:
Israel didn't drop bombs on UN warehouses and schools?
Before they ended, Israel wasn't preventing UN aid from entering Gaza? It only started doing this after hostilities had ceased?
No, the Israelis have moved out of Gaza, to the borders of Gaza (??) They made a tactical military decision.
Why has the UN moved in? Doesn't it have better things to do than pay Gaza a visit and say "Hi"?

Why do you not want to understand what deprivation and collective punishment are? Why do you want to cling to a fanatical point of view and accuse others of being fanatics?

Are you a fascist?
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Maybe you can explain this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oesBeCFAlg

and just maybe understand why Israel did what it did, and oh, the U.N. admitted that the Israelis didn't bomb the school....
 
Vkothii said:
Israel didn't drop bombs on UN warehouses and schools?
Before they ended, Israel wasn't preventing UN aid from entering Gaza? It only started doing this after hostilities had ceased?
No, the Israelis have moved out of Gaza, to the borders of Gaza (??) They made a tactical military decision.
Why has the UN moved in? Doesn't it have better things to do than pay Gaza a visit and say "Hi"?

Why do you not want to understand what deprivation and collective punishment are? Why do you want to cling to a fanatical point of view and accuse others of being fanatics?

Are you a fascist?
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But Hamas is still Stealing U.N. Food Aid out of the Mouths of Gazan children, and in doing so has caused the U.N. to suspend operations.
 
So you are someone who prefers to invent things, in a fanatical way?

I've never denied the Nazi oppression, I've never apologised for anyone either; I don't do apologies.

The modern Jews of Israel are doing just fine, destroying themselves.
Destroying any possibility of peaceful coexistence, ensuring that at some point in the future a whole heap of oppression will not be forgotten, and they'll be wearing the "fruits" of their belligerence.

Laugh, go on.
 
Vkothii said:
So you are someone who prefers to invent things, in a fanatical way?

I've never denied the Nazi oppression, I've never apologised for anyone either; I don't do apologies.

The modern Jews of Israel are doing just fine, destroying themselves.
Destroying any possibility of peaceful coexistence, ensuring that at some point in the future a whole heap of oppression will not be forgotten, and they'll be wearing the "fruits" of their belligerence.

Laugh, go on.
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And you have just proven my point,

The modern Jews of Israel are doing just fine, destroying themselves.
Destroying any possibility of peaceful coexistence, ensuring that at some point in the future a whole heap of oppression will not be forgotten, and they'll be wearing the "fruits" of their belligerence.
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Typical anti Semite view, it's all the Jews Fault, seem to be a theme that runs throughout fascism, Nazism, and Hamas.

Yes thank you for providing proof of what you stand for.
 
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