Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

That the sun has come up some many billions of times is not evidence that it will rise tomorrow. A freak anomaly in the core or some killer asteroid that we hadn't detected could all stop the next day. Past history is not evidence of what comes next but simply a measure of probability. And most of science is based on this type of inductive reasoning, as are most things people do on a daily basis - one simple doesn't spend most of their time checking that something will not fail before they use it. When was the last time that you checked a chair before sitting on it to ensure it wouldn't collapse?

Throw a coin a billion times and there will be a statsistical result of 50% for each side, but knowing that gives no clue as to what exactly will come with the next throw.

We take many things for granted on a regular basis because history "suggests" it will be fine. This isn't faith, and the type of faith we mean in this topic, the religious type, has been given a special place, at least by the religious folk who hail it so important. They truly have no choice since evidence of the scientific quality is non-existent for religious claims. And neither is there any history of gods or supernatural things that have come and gone that could set an historical precedent.

Humans are emotional beings, driven by desires and incomplete information. We like to have answers quickly and often choose the simplest/obvious rather than go for the harder to find truths. This is simply human nature. Science at its heart simply means a search for knowledge, and to abide by its strict discipline is hard, and good science is really hard, and much too hard for most people. And much of science is too complex for the average person. So most do not follow science closely and often doubt its findings if they do not quite match with their own pre-conceived notions. That's simple ignorance of science and laziness.

So is religious faith any type of method for acquiring knowledge? The religious might claim some type of "direct perception", a spiritual communication from some deity or otherwise that bypasses the senses and appeals directly to human consciousness. This approach totally convinces (it just feels so right) the adherant that his religious beliefs are indeed entirely true, despite no evidence of the conventional style. And of course this means that no actual evidence is required. But neither can such an approach be tested for truth. However, we also have no reason to believe that such a method is possible.

The real and rather obvious reason that we still have religious faith based beliefs is the impact of centuries/millenia of religious indoctrination, ancient mythology, human imagination, and propaganda, all mostly from non-scientific eras when superstitions were the norm. And this continues simply because people choose mainly on their emotions rather than intellect, and tend to believe whatever they wish whether there is conventional evidence or not.

Science will slowly move us forward as it has these past few centuries, as it slowly erodes religious claims, as it has always done. But people will still tend to believe whatever they wish.

Polls show newer generations are electing more and more to be non-religious - without religion. Religious faith simply means believing something without any evidence. A fantasy. It has no redeemable merit.

So where does that leave the adherent who still believes with 100% certainty? I'd like to say I don't care but some religious fantasies turn into killing sprees. Time will tell I guess as more people elect for science discoveries rather than ancient fantasy mythologies.
 
Religious faith isn't confidence or trust.

A religious person has confidence and trust in...

Their ability to make decisions, based on what they know.
Their teacher or guru.
The source of their religion.

What you are suggesting is that religious people (as a general rule), blindly accept (religious faith), the appeal, of religious principles.
Outside of yourself accepting that God does not exist, therefore belief in Him is an illusion, a position you yourself cannot verify, what social, logical, or scientific reason can you offer, as justification for your perspective?

jan.
 
A religious person has confidence and trust in...
Their ability to make decisions, based on what they know.
Knowledge is acquired from the environment one is brought up in. All decisions are based on experience.
Their teacher or guru.
Who may teach from his environment and experience
The source of their religion.
Which may have shaped the environment from which the experience and decision making is derived.
What you are suggesting is that religious people (as a general rule), blindly accept (religious faith), the appeal, of religious principles.
Stemming from all of the above.
Outside of yourself accepting that God does not exist, therefore belief in Him is an illusion, a position you yourself cannot verify, what social, logical, or scientific reason can you offer, as justification for your perspective? jan.
From observation of the environment and the believer's actions and deciding that the believer does not have the authority to make objective decisions, based on all of the above.

With the caveat that some (very few) environments do provide a peaceful experience based on the teaching of moderation and the inviolable right to life of all humans. i.e. a non competitive secular environment, which teaches respect, tolerance, moderation, and generosity.

To my knowledge, the only hominid species that actually provides such an environment is the Bonobo chimpanzee. There is no known case of a Bonobo killing another Bonobo. This is mainly due to their relatively isolated environment which does not require competition for territory or food resources.

It is a matriarchal society, where all females protect each other and in the event of an alpha male trying to establish dominance over a female he will be facing five or six other females.

OTOH, the females are extremely generous in providing sexual favors, even to members of other troupes, removing the need for competition among males.

They truly live a charmed life, except for the presence of humans, hunting mature Bonobos for "bush meat" and selling infants to exotic pet collectors.
 
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What you are suggesting is that religious people (as a general rule), blindly accept (religious faith), the appeal, of religious principles.
I suggesting that religions place a high value on faith, which is misplaced trust, resting as it does, not on facts, but on wishes.
Outside of yourself accepting that God does not exist, therefore belief in Him is an illusion, a position you yourself cannot verify, what social, logical, or scientific reason can you offer, as justification for your perspective?
I have not been presented with any reliable scientific evidence that god exists.
 
Outside of yourself accepting that God does not exist, therefore belief in Him is an illusion, a position you yourself cannot verify, what social, logical, or scientific reason can you offer, as justification for your perspective?

Exactly the same as for all other fictional characters. We have nothing to indicate a god exists anymore than there was ever a real Sherlock Holmes. Until someone can demonstrate that their god is more than a result of human imagination then there is nothing more to be said.
 
A religious person has confidence and trust in...

Their ability to make decisions, based on what they know.
Their teacher or guru.
The source of their religion.

What you are suggesting is that religious people (as a general rule), blindly accept (religious faith), the appeal, of religious principles.

Yes exactly. The overwhelming impact from centuries of religious propaganda and ancient superstitions will leave that mark on people. People tend to follow others, a comfort factor to be part of a community, and for a long while religions ruled the world. That paradigm is still intact for many. They want to believe that there is more to life so they convince themselves that there is. Faith becomes their only mantra as if it is something magical.
 
Yes exactly. The overwhelming impact from centuries of religious propaganda and ancient superstitions will leave that mark on people. People tend to follow others, a comfort factor to be part of a community, and for a long while religions ruled the world. That paradigm is still intact for many. They want to believe that there is more to life so they convince themselves that there is. Faith becomes their only mantra as if it is something magical.
And exclusively belonging only to the faithful.
 
TV program QI S 9 EP 15 Hypnosis

Stephen Fry

In Roman Catholic religion it's a sin to be superstitious

:)
 
TV program QI S 9 EP 15 Hypnosis

Stephen Fry

In Roman Catholic religion it's a sin to be superstitious
LOL, that's a twist if I ever heard one.
Superstition is any belief or practise that is irrational - i.e., it arises from ignorance, a misunderstanding of science or causality, a positive belief in fate or magic, or fear of that which is unknown. "Superstition" also refers to religious beliefs or actions arising from irrationality. The word superstition is often used to refer to a religion not practiced by the majority of a give…
See more on en.wikipedia.org · Text under CC-BY-SA license
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
 
Outside of yourself accepting that God does not exist, therefore belief in Him is an illusion, a position you yourself cannot verify, what social, logical, or scientific reason can you offer, as justification for your perspective?
I know it to be true. I had a personal revelation in which this knowledge was revealed to me.
 
Knowledge is acquired from the environment one is brought up in. All decisions are based on experience.

Did your particular environment dish up this juicy tidbit?

Who may teach from his environment and experience

Do you know what his environment, and experience entails?

Is it possible that they can allow him/her, with good discipline, spiritual awareness?

Stemming from all of the above.

What is your knowledge of "above" based on. You personal environment?

From observation of the environment and the believer's actions and deciding that the believer does not have the authority to make objective decisions, based on all of the above.

"Above" is based on you environment and experience. What makes your experiement () able to objectively know something that you do not have the capacity to know.

To my knowledge, the only hominid species that actually provides such an environment is the Bonobo chimpanzee. There is no known case of a Bonobo killing another Bonobo. This is mainly due to their relatively isolated environment which does not require competition for territory or food resources.

Are you serious?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/10/081013-bonobos-attack-missions.html
--------------------
I know it to be true. I had a personal revelation in which this knowledge was revealed to me.

You're taking the piss.
Why don't you answer the question if you can. ☺️

Jan
 
I suggesting that religions place a high value on faith, which is misplaced trust, resting as it does, not on facts, but on wishes.

That's not what it is, or means. But if such circumstances arise, it will be the same for everyone. Not just the ones whose religion involves the awareness of God. But for those who are without God as well.

Exactly the same as for all other fictional characters. We have nothing to indicate a god exists anymore than there was ever a real Sherlock Holmes. Until someone can demonstrate that their god is more than a result of human imagination then there is nothing more to be said.

It's not hard to see why someone who is without God, can make those assumptions without any knowledge. But do you have anything other than those, to offer?

Yes exactly. The overwhelming impact from centuries of religious propaganda and ancient superstitions will leave that mark on people.

That is the atheistic explanatory power at its best.

People tend to follow others, a comfort factor to be part of a community, and for a long while religions ruled the world.

More baseless assumptions.

They want to believe that there is more to life so they convince themselves that there is.

And that little gem of knowledge is based on....

Jan.
 
Write4U said:
To my knowledge, the only hominid species that actually provides such an environment is the Bonobo chimpanzee. There is no known case of a Bonobo killing another Bonobo. This is mainly due to their relatively isolated environment which does not require competition for territory or food resources.
Interesting article.
I just wish you had read my post more carefully. I never said that Bonobos were not omnivorous.

Your article does not make any mention of any Bonobo killing another Bonobo, whereas Common Chimpanzees often fight and seriously injure and sometimes kill each other for dominance, just like people do. But then the Common Chimpanzee society is patriarchal, just like human societies, unlike the Bonobo society, which is matriarchal, ........difference!
 
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Now as for the rest.
Write4U said:
Knowledge is acquired from the environment one is brought up in. All decisions are based on experience.
Jan Ardena said,
Did your particular environment dish up this juicy tidbit?
W4U said,
Who may teach from his environment and experience
JA said,
Do you know what his environment, and experience entails?
Is it possible that they can allow him/her, with good discipline, spiritual awareness?
Of course, but then one runs into the problem of what spiritual awareness entails.
W4U said,
Stemming from all of the above.
JA said,
What is your knowledge of "above" based on. You personal environment?
W4U said,
From observation of the environment and the believer's actions and deciding that the believer does not have the authority to make objective decisions, based on all of the above.
JA said,
"Above" is based on you environment and experience. What makes your experiement () able to objectively know something that you do not have the capacity to know.
(bolded by me) What does experiement () mean ???? Moreover, what gives you the authority to prejudge my capacity for knowledge?

"Vanity" is a sin but perhaps you don't understand the full implication of that term..

But to answer your questions.
My answer to all of the above questions, is yes.
Many scientific researches have shown an obvious fact, that the behavior of a human being is created by the environment. If genes predispose a certain behavior but the environment doesn’t support it, then that behavior won’t manifest, so in this case, genes aren’t important.”
I was brought up in an atheist family, who taught me taking personal responsibility for my actions and not rely on begging for absolution from guilt through confession and recitation of Three Hail Marys.

My parents taught me that an atheist must live with his guilt and learn from his mistakes, so as to acquire wisdom from repeating those mistakes.

One of my main books of reference is the Skeptic's Annotated Bible
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

You may take a look at that sometime. You might gain some knowledge and deeper insight from that book.

But George Carlin still said it best and though it contains crude language, the message is profound, if taken in proper context.
 
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