Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

[Write4U]

Wall and head still going strong I see

When a post is addressed to me, I have right, nay the responsibility to respond.
This is not your thread to begin with. So why don't you shhhhh, when I am actually making a point.

I waited patiently for your point, but it did not seem forthcoming soon, so I took the liberty to respond during your hiatus. For all I know you hit a mental wall...

 

[spidergoat]

You're taking the piss.
Why don't you answer the question if you can.

I'm not sure why I have to provide evidence and you are somehow exempt.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Your article does not make any mention of any Bonobo killing another Bonobo, whereas Common Chimpanzees often fight and seriously injure and sometimes kill each other for dominance, just like people do.

Generally, human (males) don't kill those who they have lots of sex with.

But then the Common Chimpanzee society is patriarchal, just like human societies, unlike the Bonobo society, which is matriarchal, ........difference!

How do you know it's a matriarchal society?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

What does experiement () mean ????

It is the child of experience and environment.

Of course, but then one runs into the problem of what spiritual awareness entails.

It is self-explanatory.

Moreover, what gives you the authority to prejudge my capacity for knowledge?

I wasn't aware that I needed a "right" for any mental activity. Where do you get them from?

CLAIM: Knowledge is acquired from the environment one is brought up in. All decisions are based on experience.

DISGUISED CLAIM: Who may teach from his environment and EXPERIENCE.

CLAIM: From observation of the environment and the believer's actions and deciding that the believer does not have the authority to make objective decisions, based on all of the above.

How do u think you have the capacity to Know what you claim to know?

"Vanity" is a sin but perhaps you don't understand the full implication of that term..

I understand that pride lies at the root of vanity. Vanity is simply the way that particular pride manifests.
But now that you mention it. What is sin? This should be relatively easy for you, seeing as you claim to know so much.

But to answer your questions.
My answer to all of the above questions, is yes.

JAN: "Above" is based on you environment and experience. What makes your experiement () [environment, experience] able to objectively know something that you do not have the capacity to know.

Write4U : Yes.

I was brought up in an atheist family, who taught me taking personal responsibility for my actions and not rely on begging for absolution from guilt through confession and recitation of Three Hail Marys.

I'm happy for you. But what does that have to do with anything?

You may take a look at that sometime. You might gain some knowledge

So I don't currently have any knowledge? Boy! You are good.

Jan.

 

[Write4U]

I wasn't aware that I needed a "right" for any mental activity. Where do you get them from?

I don't prejudge your capacity for learning as you expressly accused me of........difference!

I'm happy for you. But what does that have to do with anything?

I am merely arguing that faith is not necessarily a reliable path to knowledge, with the caveat that most scripture contains some practical wisdom, which I have happily adopted..

Check out the Skeptics annotated bible, it lists both .

p.s. It also addresses the flaws and benefits of Mormonism and Islam.

 

[Write4U]

I understand that pride lies at the root of vanity. Vanity is simply the way that particular pride manifests.

You are correct, but I used the word vanity in context of the discussion. I am sure you will agree that vanity, while simply a way to describe a particular manifest pride, does not make it a lesser sin?

 

[Jan Ardena]

I don't prejudge your capacity for learning as you expressly accused me of........difference!

I did no such thing. I was curious as to how you know things that are not within the capacity for humans to know.

I am merely arguing that faith is not necessarily a reliable path to knowledge, with the caveat that most scripture contains some practical wisdom, which I have happily adopted..

I don't think you know what it means to have faith, despite it's simplicity. I think you are too preoccupied with making sure what you see as faith in God, or religious faith, is not the same as your faith. Because you dogmatically believe that faith has two meanings.

Check out the Skeptics annotated bible, it lists both .

What does this have to do with the topic?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You are correct, but I used the word vanity in context of the discussion. I am sure you will agree that vanity, while simply a way to describe a particular manifest pride, does not make it a lesser sin?

Okay.
So why is "vanity" a sin?

Jan.

 

[spidergoat]

Because you dogmatically believe that faith has two meanings.

It absolutely does have two meanings.

 

[Jan Ardena]

What are they?

Jan.

 

[spidergoat]

Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated.
—Christopher Hitchens, Hitch 22

 

[Write4U]

Okay.
So why is "vanity" a sin?
Jan.

Read the bible, it's part of the sin of pride, no?

Vanity led on to a number of idolatries, and the empty inflated life which, when it was pricked by the sword of Shalmaneser, proved to be a mere bubble; and because there was no enduring foundation the whole edifice crumbled and decayed. Because a nation is prosperous, because its life is inflated, because it is pursuing a vainglorious course, it does not follow that the blessing of God is upon it, and it does follow that if that is its life, when first the keen, sharp edge of trial Comes it will be shown to be what it is. And what applies to nations applies with equal power to individuals

Bible Hub.

 

[Write4U]

Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated.
—Christopher Hitchens, Hitch 22

Yes, let's do away with reason. Surrender our minds and "tithe' all our money for the greater glory of God! He always seems to need more of it.

 

[Write4U]

After all, reason is not a required asset in gaining knowledge......

 

[Write4U]

It is self-explanatory.

Spiritual awareness is self-explanatory?
Wow, that's deep!

 

[Jan Ardena]

Spiritual awareness is self-explanatory?
Wow, that's deep!

I assume you're being sarcastic. But didn't you like about my response?

jan.

 

[Write4U]

I assume you're being sarcastic. But didn't you like about my response? jan.

What I don't like about that response is that it is meaningless.

A religious psychopath also can have deep self-awareness. He may believe that it is his holy duty is to kill every non-believer, or gays, or women who wear red dresses, or.........take your pick.

IOW, self-awareness may result in non-explanatory actions. It has no particular moral connotation.

Many animals are self-aware as has been tested and confirmed. But does that make them spiritual?
Many animals also show very moral behavior (empathy), without any learned spirituality.

 

[Cris]

Jan,

Cris said: ↑
Exactly the same as for all other fictional characters. We have nothing to indicate a god exists anymore than there was ever a real Sherlock Holmes. Until someone can demonstrate that their god is more than a result of human imagination then there is nothing more to be said.

It's not hard to see why someone who is without God, can make those assumptions without any knowledge. But do you have anything other than those, to offer?

Your inability, as always, to demonstrate a non-fiction seems quite adequate.

Yes exactly. The overwhelming impact from centuries of religious propaganda and ancient superstitions will leave that mark on people.

That is the atheistic explanatory power at its best.

I quite understand and sympathize, that like most people, you would prefer not to recognize that you are a victim of propaganda. It is typical to deny what you likely suspect, to do otherwise would be an admission of foolishness and gullibility.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Your inability, as always, to demonstrate a non-fiction seems quite adequate.

Not sure what you're trying to get across here, in relation to my response.
My response , therefore still stands.

It's not hard to see why someone who is without God, can make those assumptions without any knowledge. But do you have anything other than those, to offer?

I quite understand and sympathize, that like most people, you would prefer not to recognize that you are a victim of propaganda.

You "understand", do you?

It is typical to deny what you likely suspect, to do otherwise would be an admission of foolishness and gullibility.

Now that you've got that off your chest, care to respond to the topic of faith, and whether knowlegde can be derived from, or by it?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated.
—Christopher Hitchens, Hitch 22

That was his comprehension.
You said there are ABSOLUTELY two meanings of faith. What are they?

jan.