Hitler, The Spear of Destiny, and the Jews.

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river ape:
From a Muslim perspective, I agree that Jesus was Jewish
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no, from an Islamic perspective he was muslim as were all the prophets that came before him, and as were all those came after him.
 
Do Muslims not recognize Jesus as being of the blood of Israel (Jacob)? I am not an authority on this matter. I know only that the Jesus of Islamic tradition is unrecognizable from the Biblical figure.
 
River Ape said:
Do Muslims not recognize Jesus as being of the blood of Israel (Jacob)? I am not an authority on this matter. I know only that the Jesus of Islamic tradition is unrecognizable from the Biblical figure.
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unrecognisable to you and you're perspective which is irrelvant.

Ah so now we have jesus having the blood of jacob and being the son of god LOL

Muslims recognise all the prophets, since they are mentioned in the quran.
As to the exact geneology and lineage of jesus, I don't posess enough knowledge on this matter to comment.
 
outlandish said:
unrecognisable to you and you're perspective which is irrelvant.
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Well, a Jesus who was NOT the Son of God and NOT crucified is radically different from the Biblical Jesus, isn't he?

Ah so now we have jesus having the blood of jacob and being the son of god LOL
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Why "so now"? Genealogies linking Jesus to Jacob (via Joseph) are so ancient that a couple of different ones are to be found in the Gospels -- despite the fact that they are somewhat irrelevant if he was the Son of God (rather than Joseph). It's rather an old problem for the comment "so now"!

Muslims recognise all the prophets, since they are mentioned in the quran.
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Does that make those prophets Muslim? Are you saying that their thoughts and utterances conformed with the teachings of Mohammed pbuh?

As to the exact geneology and lineage of jesus, I don't posess enough knowledge on this matter to comment.
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So why do you take issue with my stating that I thought Muslims viewed him as being on Jewish lineage (of the line of Jacob)? I thought this was the case, but I am open to correction if wrong. I am not sure if Muslims view Mary/Mirium/Marium as having been a Jewess -- but if not it seems to make the Muslim and Biblical versions of Jesus even more unrecognisable as representations of the same figure.
 
pardon me for interjecting but I do believe outlandish is simply pointing out that first you stated jesus was 100% born of god, with no contribution from Mary at all...then you go on to say he comes from the blood of Jacob...I can see later you add that you were speaking from the muslim view point...supposedly...but it sure doesnt look that way when reading your previous statment:

"Do Muslims not recognize Jesus as being of the blood of Israel (Jacob)?
 
River Ape said:
You should seriously consider the possibility that Jesus was not Jewish -- unless, of course, you consider that his father, God, was Jewish. The Bible does not teach that Mary was the biological mother of Jesus -- contributing half of his genes. Jesus was the "son" element of the Holy Trinity, and thus 100% God (not 50%).
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That's just plain dumb.
 
River Ape said:
You don't think he was a Christian, then?
In regard to Judaism, do you not recall his repeated turn of phrase, "Ye have heard it say . . . but I say unto you . . . " ?
Consult Matthew 5.
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There were no "Christians" during his lifetime.
 
If Jesus was the son of god, amd wasn't sexually concieved, then he couldn't biologically be Jewish. He'd biologically be deistic.

Jesus was flesh and blood, and grew inside a human womb. There's nothing in the bible to make us think he was made from tin or iron or cotton candy that would deny him the blood of the Jews. Of course, the elves working inside our Holy Mother may have constructed Jesus from a Non-Jewish material.

From a non-Christian stance, Jesus was definitely a Jew. His blood came from Jewish stock who you could trace all the way back to some semi-mythical king that the Jews think is important.

So whatever.
 
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Roman said:
If Jesus was the son of god, amd wasn't sexually concieved, then he couldn't biologically be Jewish.
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Precisely.
Jesus was flesh and blood, and grew inside a human womb. There's nothing in the bible to make us think he was made from tin or iron or cotton candy that would deny him the blood of the Jews.
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Well, I would say that Catholic teaching DOES deny Jesus the blood of the Jews, and I would suppose that teaching to be based on the Bible. Whether you choose to believe the Bible is up to you, of course.

Hitler's Catholic upbringing, which is where we started, would NOT have taught him that Jesus was Jewish. Had he pursued Catholic doctrine in detail, he would have learned that Mary was virgo intacta before, during, and after the birth of Jesus (and of any other children). Christianity requires a suspension of disbelief so far as biological normality is concerned.
 
The Spear of Destiny....anyone ever play Tactics Ogre? There was a great GBA game and the whole plot of it was about the spear...
Anyway, I don't think Jesus was Jewish. Maybe his mother was, but that would be irrelevant if he is supposed to be the son of God.
 
I'm not sure about Hitler, but I know that Heinrich Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg were anti-christians who saw Christianity as a mideastern import that retarded the progress of the "aryan" race and destroyed Rome. They wished to annihilate the religion. Hitler seemed pretty pragmatic in his views of religion, seeing them as mere tools to control people. He was also a fond admirer of Islam, believing that he could use it to his advantage.
 
xylus said:
The Spear of Destiny....anyone ever play Tactics Ogre? There was a great GBA game and the whole plot of it was about the spear...
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Yeah, but what about the Wolfenstein sequel, Spear of Destiny? That game was sweet.
 
I'd like to add that Hitler needed vast amounts of money to build his military and my thinking is that the Pope and the Catholic Church gave him what he needed.
 
Hagar
"Hitler seemed pretty pragmatic in his views of religion, seeing them as mere tools to control people. He was also a fond admirer of Islam, believing that he could use it to his advantage. "

Where did you get that from never heard of it before ? :eek:
 
Hitler struggled with Christianity, he saw himself as the German Messiah (a title given to him by Chamberlin and Ekhart). While Nietzsche was the grandpa of the Nazi "philosophy", Hitler idolized the old man's friend-turned-enemy Wagner.
Nietzsche, the aethiest, publilcy chastised Wagner for his conversion to Christianity as a disgusting act of a weakened man. Wagner, a virulent anti-semite (believe that) had to reconcile his christian leanings with the jewish "problem". Wagner, along with a number of loonies back in pre war Germany, refashioned christ as an aryan victim of the jews. Don't ask me exactly how they made that leap, but expect that it had to do with Atlantean like beings, and subteranneans, and Antarctic Nazi UFO bases. Hitler followed Wagner's lead on the Aryan Space Jesus; but he like Mao saw religion as an opiate of the masses. I would highly recommend the book "Secrets of the Holy Lance" (piccard and smith(?)) for anyone interested in this shit. The writers fill in a lot of the blanks on why hitler was interested in the spear of destiny, the true lunacy of the nazis, it's twisted origin. people should learn about this shit so it doesn't happen again -- the story didn't start with Hitler hating the Jews. That hate had old roots, and it's rise to power was fostered by the old men in hats clubs -- and this is happening again. tune in people!

over,
rex
 
River Ape said:
I am not a Christian, but from a Christian perspective (I would have thought almost any Christian perspective) I do not consider that Jesus can be considered a Jew. The concept of the Trinity is central to Christianity -- and that concept makes it difficult to consider Jesus as being any more Jewish than God or the Holy Spirit. Merely, in his incarnate form, he dwelt among the Jews. As I have already stated, Mary was not (in the ordinary sense) the biological mother of Jesus. Such a notion would imply a (sexual) act of fertilisation by God.

From a Muslim perspective, I agree that Jesus was Jewish -- but this is not relevant to a discussion of Hitler.
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the concept of the trinity was added to christianity 300 years or so after the death of Jesus. it became official christian doctrine at the first ecumenical council called the Council of Nicea in 325 ad. thats where the nicene creed came from and its recitation reaffirms a belief in the trinity. up until that point there was much argument between christian sects on the subject, and there has been argument about it since then, although most people putting forth an antitrinitarian view in the early years were executed. perhaps the most notable of these is Michael Servetus who wrote 2 seminal works dismantling the fraud that he believed the trinity to be (they are called On the Errors of the Trinity and Christianity Restored) he was subsequently burned at the stake after a sham trial by the naziesque genevan reformer John Calvin in 1553. Servetus is now considered the patron of the Unitarian Universalist christian church, of which a central tenet is a denial of the holy trinity as a concept essential to knowledge of christ.
that being said, there is little actual evidence that jesus actually existed, let alone what religion he devoted himself to. everything has been postulated, from him being a magician, to a devotee of the ancient egyptian religion, to a jew, or various combinations of other old world religions.

heres a couple of books i found useful on the subject:

the templar revelation
jesus the magician

i dont really think that the spear of destiny had anything to do with hitlers downfall/demise. it was more likely a combination of inhuman arrogance and poorly reasoned tactics. hitler mounted expeditions all over the world looking for artifacts of powerful religious significance, from the holy grail to the spear of destiny, to the ark of the covenant. they turned out to be myths just like his 1000 year reich was.
 
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