Good and Evil.

DaveC426913 said:
It evolved.

Primitive critters without a strong desire/ability to survive were eaten, thereby failing passing on their genes of lackadaisicality. Critters that had a strong desire to live got eaten less and passed on their survival genes more often.
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Дэйв, да это понятно. Непонятно, откуда у них вообще появились желания? Даже не желания, а одно главное желание - выжить, из которого происходят все остальные желания.
 
ольга said:
Dave, yes, that's clear. It's not clear where their desires came from? Not even desires, but one main desire - to survive, from which all other desires come.
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I don't see what's not clear. The desire for survival is a behaviour. Behaviours are rooted in the genes, and are inherited.

A weak desire for survival (statistically) results in being eaten before passing on one's genes to one's offspring, resulting in a weeding out of that behaviour.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Good is doing right by others, be they people or animals.
Evil is doing wrong by others: people, critters.
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Все эти "правильно" и "неправильно" - понятия относительные. Если будут тонуть две собаки, ваша и соседская - чью вы будете спасать в первую очередь? А если не собака, а жена?
 
DaveC426913 said:
I don't see what's not clear. The desire for survival is a behaviour. Behaviours are rooted in the genes, and are inherited.

A weak desire for survival (statistically) results in being eaten before passing on one's genes to one's offspring, resulting in a weeding out of that behaviour.
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Кем заложено желание?
 
ольга said:
Who laid the foundation for the desire?
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What does that mean? No entity did. It evolved. The most basic form of evolutionary advantage: the ones that don't survive don't pass on their genes.

Why do you have to crowbar some higher power into it? That's a believer fallacy.
 
DaveC426913 said:
What does that mean? No entity did. It evolved. The most basic form of evolutionary advantage: the ones that don't survive don't pass on their genes.

Why do you have to crowbar some higher power into it? That's a believer fallacy.
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Я не вмешиваю. Мне интересно понять, на каком этапе эволюции появились смыслы и желания. Когда выживание стало смыслом? Почему вы ХОТИТЕ жить?
 
DaveC426913 said:
Saving one drowning dog over another has nothing to do with good or evil. It is strictly utilitarian.

An example of 'evil' would be deliberately drowning a dog.
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Пусть это будет не собака. Допустим, одно племя воюет с другим, потому что ресурсов для выживания хватает только для одних.
 
ольга said:
I don't interfere. I'm interested in understanding at what stage of evolution meanings and desires appeared. When did survival become meaning? Why do you WANT to live?
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Ah. A very different question. When critters became advanced enough that they had choices - say, whether to run, to hide or to fight - survivcal became a conscious decision. Blue-green algae have no choice in their survival strategies; forest hares do.

I want to live because my ancestors had genes that compelled them to want to live. Any offspring who had a weak will to live managed to get killed before they could pass on their genes.
 
ольга said:
Let it not be a dog. Let's say one tribe is at war with another because there are enough resources for survival only for some.
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Ah. A better question. Yes, competition over resources is a grey area. That is subjective judgement.

At the same time good and evil arose, so did empathy. A sufficiently emotionally-evolved tribesman might recognize themselves in their enemy, seeing that they too, are only trying to survive. That might lead to overtures of peace offerings.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Ah. A very different question. When critters became advanced enough that they had choices - say, whether to run, to hide or to fight - survivcal became a conscious decision. Blue-green algae have no choice in their survival strategies; forest hares do.

I want to live because my ancestors had genes that compelled them to want to live. Any offspring who had a weak will to live managed to get killed before they could pass on their genes.
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Ну так на каком же этапе эволюции появились желания? Когда появилось сознание, умеющее делать выбор?
 
DaveC426913 said:
Ah. A better question. Yes, competition over resources is a grey area. That is subjective judgement.

At the same time good and evil arose, so did empathy. A sufficiently emotionally-evolved tribesman might recognize themselves in their enemy, seeing that they too, are only trying to survive. That might lead to overtures of peace offerings.
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Я думаю, что эмпатия - это результат "примерки". Т.е., чтобы лучше понять других, сознание "примеряет" их действия, мысли, чувства, на себя. И когда делает больно другому, невольно делает больно и себе самому. Вот вам библейское "возлюби ближнего своего, как самого себя", или буддистское "не вреди ничему живому ни мыслью, ни словом, ни делом".
 
ольга said:
So at what stage of evolution did desires appear? When did consciousness emerge that could make a choice?
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Look at it the other way around. The behaviour was there in the first critters, and has evolved continuously in complexity. The only question is:
what do we mean by the word 'instinct' as opposed' to 'desire'? When do we decide the former becomes the latter?

Same with consciousness. It's a continuum. Our mistake is in trying to pin down a specific before/after time.

In other words, these are issues of semantics.
 
ольга said:
I think that empathy is the result of "trying on". That is, in order to better understand others, consciousness "trying on" their actions, thoughts, feelings, on itself. And when it hurts another, it involuntarily hurts itself. Here you have the biblical "love your neighbor as yourself", or the Buddhist "do not harm any living thing, neither by thought, nor word, nor deed".
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Yes. Empathy is a very evolved ability to see yourself in others and act toward them as you would toward yourself.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Yes. Empathy is a very evolved ability to see yourself in others and act toward them as you would toward yourself.
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Совесть,вероятно, проистекает из этого же явления. Делаешь плохо другому - становится плохо себе (совесть мучает). Дэйв, почему не всех?!
 
DaveC426913 said:
Look at it the other way around. The behaviour was there in the first critters, and has evolved continuously in complexity. The only question is:
what do we mean by the word 'instinct' as opposed' to 'desire'? When do we decide the former becomes the latter?

Same with consciousness. It's a continuum. Our mistake is in trying to pin down a specific before/after time.

In other words, these are issues of semantics.
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Люди боятся смерти из-за страха боли, или из-за страха исчезнуть?
 
ольга said:
Conscience probably stems from the same phenomenon. You do bad to someone else - you feel bad for yourself (conscience torments). Dave, why not everyone?!
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I think we all learn different lessons as we develop. Some learn early that life is unfair and unstable and cruel. They learn that trusting others leads to disaster. They learn that a better way for them to be successful is to think of themselves only. They learn anger, and they learn revenge.

The kid who was mistreated by an alcoholic father that burns him with cigarette butts grows up thinking the world is his fault and that inflicting pain on others is a form of power. The lessons we learn in our formative years become internalized, until we don't question them anymore. A super simplistic cliche but I think it makes the point.
 
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