Freewill - an act of improvisation?

Gendanken,

Yes, That's exactly what I meant in a much more succinct and clear manner. Thank you. I have trouble getting to the point sometimes.
 
ok...so we get back to possibly a perception of beauty, inner or outer or both.....now if you read a dictionary definition beauty means to percieve something as "pleasing" ha ha I must admit I found that amusing.

I think nexus if you really listen to an improvising muso carefully ( I do mean a relatively good one) you will note that the musician is far from limited to the chromatics available, ( maybe this is what is holding you up as a musical improvisor)

It is true he by definition is limited voluntarilly to a genre that he may be specialising in and true he is influenced by al the muso's he's heard prior but his unique live performance is continuously evolving and original. Never the same, always unique,not necessarilly good, but certainly unique.

So to me freewill is an original application of prior experience that is constantly unique to every given moment, again not necessarilly a work of art but always unique.
 
and it is the ability to be original and unique that allows for the title of freewill......or part thereof
If you have ever heard Yehudi Menuhin's improviation whilst playng the Brahms Violin Concerto in D Maj you will hear absolute mastery, uniqueness and originality, and it's even of a "classical" genre.
I use this as an example that can be extrapolated to every day life and propose that improvisation is a key component of our ability to express our freedom in every moment of our lives.
 
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Gendanken,

Yes, That's exactly what I meant in a much more succinct and clear manner. Thank you. I have trouble getting to the point sometimes.
Thank you?
For what? The bit about bitches or awareness?

I've recently read an article about emotions and choices. There are people whose emotional centers of their brains have been damaged. Their intelligence scores evaluated well, they could speak well, they could learn, but they could not make decisions. They would sit there and run up tally lists in their heads... reasons for... reasons against... The lists would keep growing and growing but no ultimate decision could be reached. Their was no emotional attachment to deciding one way or the other.
Capgras syndrome.
Cotard's syndrome.
I smell a brain junkie........ Touche.!

So, in order to improvise, we must have an emotional predilection for an outcome. The aesthetic value, so to speak...
And what of instinct?
Cease thinking "human" ish- keeps you from being objective in your analysis.

Given as pure definition, "improvise":
1.To invent, compose, or perform with little or no preparation.
2.To make or provide from available materials: improvised a dinner from what I found in the refrigerator.

Place a hurdle in front of a scarab beetle and in a little while the thing will find its away around it.
Place 2 gerbils in cage full of trinkets and each will improvise its own way of using them.
None of this involved aesthetics.
 
Gendanken,

Thank you?
For what? The bit about bitches or awareness?

When I wrote those words I meant the part about awareness, but of course, perhaps somewhere deep inside I probably meant both.

And what of instinct?
Cease thinking "human" ish- keeps you from being objective in your analysis.

I feel that instincts are motivated by emotions as well as our higher brain functions. And, I was expanding upon the premise of the improvising blues player, which led naturally to dealing in higher brain functions. But, note taken.

Place a hurdle in front of a scarab beetle and in a little while the thing will find its away around it.
Place 2 gerbils in cage full of trinkets and each will improvise its own way of using them.
None of this involved aesthetics.

Both the animals you listed are far lower on the scale of self-awareness than a blues player. But, I imagine that even they have their aesthetic values. The scarab beetle probably gets a tiny thrill from having successfully navigated the hurdle. It's a pity that it will soon forget this triumph of it's nature. And the gerbils also use their trinkets as a way of stroking their emotional centers.

I am no doubt using aesthetics in an improper usage in this way. Aesthetics has to do with beauty rather than feeling good; but, isn't aesthetics another way of saying pleasing to the senses? This seems to be an emotional response. Our aesthetic response is higher than said animals because our levels of self-awareness are higher, but perhaps they could be said to have aesthetics as well.

As an aside, another way the gerbils might pass the time before dealing with the trinkets in the cage is to fight until only one has testicles remaining, assuming that they are two males...

Quantum Quack,

Yes, a masterful improvisation does not dwell entirely within the scale. It steps in, it steps out. Also, keys can change dynamically. It is interesting that you noted the classical improvisation. I have never heard of such a thing. My classical experience is limited, I grew up in a culturally devoid environment (except for classic american "culture", that is). I imagine that many in the classical world didn't care for someone "playing" with the classics in such a way. Classical thinking has always seemed rather hidebound to me. And even a blues player is free to step out of the bounds of the blues scale, but he risks offending his audience in doing so. And also risks hitting the wrong note at the wrong time, bringing the whole thing crashing down about his ears. But, that is the point of true improvisation. To try things where the consequences are not fully known. Jimi Hendrix was booed off the stage when he began to diverge from his earlier work and to branch out into more complex works. It's a possibility that if he hadn't died, his work would have faded into obscurity. He probably would be hailed as a "sell-out" which is ironic because only by sticking to his earlier formula would he be selling out. But, such is the fickleness of the audience.
 
Nexus, the improvisor is more interested in how he feels than how his audience feels.
Not totally uninterested in his audience I might add but a sense of prioity to his own interests)

The improvisor bu nature always performs over the available structure including the classical to the jazz blues player.

It is by moulding creativity to the awareness of structure that generates the adapative improvisation of which I talk of.

It's a bit of a game really. The blues player knows the usual blues structure and what the audience have probably paid to listen to. So he "see's" this structure and enjoys creativily manipultaing this structure in a way that affords the greatest originality.

In this sense we are discussing "deliberate" froms of improviation when for most persons we do it in a semi deliberate fashion at every opportunity ( or so I propose)

Everyt decision we need to make is in a simple way a small problem that is faced and each problem requires improvisation to find a solution. And as every one improvises in a unique fashion is makes precisise predictability difficult. Thus free will is evident.
 
Nexus, the improvisor is more interested in how he feels than how his audience feels.
Not totally uninterested in his audience I might add but a sense of prioity to his own interests)

I agree, but some artists get a stroke of the ego by their audience cheering maniacally. The effect of the audience cannot be wholely discounted. As I posted earlier about emotions, there is an emotional response to both the pure beauty of the work and also an emotional response to the gratification of the audience. And also a number of other factors that we may not even be aware of.

Take for instance, Jimi Hendrix once more. He was booed off the stage for attempting to further his musical range. The crowd wanted the same old schlock, over and over again. Jimi took this hard, he had grown accustomed to the roar of the crowd. He delved deeper and deeper into heroin addiction and died.

Now, Frank Zappa always played for the fringe. He cared not a whit for what the audience thought of his work. His work spoke to him and if it should happen to speak to others as well... ? So much the better. But he played for himself first.

So, we have to accept that there is not one type of improvisor. Everyone improvises in their own particular way for their own particular reasons. And, this in itself is a form of improvisation.

In this sense we are discussing "deliberate" froms of improviation when for most persons we do it in a semi deliberate fashion at every opportunity ( or so I propose)

Everyt decision we need to make is in a simple way a small problem that is faced and each problem requires improvisation to find a solution. And as every one improvises in a unique fashion is makes precisise predictability difficult. Thus free will is evident.

This semi-deliberateness of which you speak... It stirs once more the embers of the inner self acting as it will. As does everyone improvising in a unique fashion. We are a consequence of our biological structure, our emotional structure, our instinctual structure, our social structure, our educational structure, our environmental structure, there are practically infinite numbers of structures which we inhabit at any given time. And it is the subtle blending of these various structures that define us, our motivations, our free will. It seems to me that uniqueness of improvisation is a consequence of this deeper interplay of structures, a symptom rather than the cause.

What if we remove ourselves from ourselves. What if we posit the observation of some strange unhuman observer who's motivations and ideals are vastly different than the ideals of a human. It observes the humans scurry about in their daily lives. Would it see the uniqueness of each individual's improvisation? Or would it find patterns which indicate that the whole of the species is following an inborn trend that varies little?

It might be said that within a horde of rats (You're from Australia, right? I understand the rodent problem get's extremely bad out there from time to time.) the individual rats see themselves as unique, as improvising their way through life in a unique, unpredictable manner. But to a human observer, they seem to blend together into a nameless mass. Individuals indistinct. Of course, this is positing a human level of self-awareness on the rats which most likely doesn't exist...
 
Nexus, for sure you have a valid point but are we not now discussing perspective, or perception of freewill in others.

How does shifting perpective of awareness further clarify what you are "really" trying to say> Is it that freewill is only an illusion?

For to say this is also valid. Freewill being only valid to the person of entity expressing it and not to others whom may be observing it.

It is true that if one looks at humanity like one looks at a plague of mice than one can draw similarities to the insignificance of freewill. But to the individual mouse or should I say mice...hmmmmmmm.......it is very relevant.
 
Good question... What was I trying to say? I should have interjected an extra carriage return between the two as the shift of perspective was merely an added thought. But, they do seem to connect. It would appear that "uniqueness" is a cultural more. Another of these underlying structures which shape the overall structure in which we improvise.

One does not even have to go to a horde of mice to see this effect. How about a horde of chinese in an overcrowded city? To westerners, they blend together and seem to lack the uniqueness that we witness in western culture. But, to the chinese, they no doubt find our cultures equally perplexing.

And, we can carry the oriental analogy a step further. Their music is based upon a different scale than western music. To us (to me anyway) it's a god awful cacauphony with no apparent structure. All "solo's" of this type sound practically identical to my western ears. Yet, to the orientals, their music is an improvisation of utmost beauty.


I do tend to believe that "true" free will is an illusion. It is composed of many things of which we are only partially aware. But, in regards to a perspective which ignores these inner functions, then we do have free will.
 
It reminds me of a respons I posted in a determinism forum a while ago:

If absolutely everything is needed to determine everythng then nothiing is able to be Absolutely determined.

Because an any given moment we only have that moment. To know all the variables would take an eternity etc etc......

Infinite variables over an infinite amount of time.......poof!!!! no determinism or freewill....arguement over....( Chuckles)

So in the end it all comes down to how you feel. Do you feel free or oppressed?

A simple solution to an infinite question: "Do you feel free to improvise?" or "Do you feel restricted in what you want to do?"
 
It reminds me of a respons I posted in a determinism forum a while ago:

Actually now that you mention it, it reminds me of something you posted earlier in this thread. I get your point. Reason fails when dealing with infinity. But, if we're not dealing with an infinite, just a near infinite...? The calculus of free will...

So in the end it all comes down to how you feel. Do you feel free or oppressed?

The emotional context of the situation. Those inner beings once more.

A simple solution to an infinite question: "Do you feel free to improvise?" or "Do you feel restricted in what you want to do?"

Not so simple to those stroke victims. We have the luxury of having functioning brains with all their idosyncracies.


And, we never even got into the quantum aspect of the situation. It's a pity that John hasn't come back into the conversation. It's strange enough in the mind without quantum effects added in. Free will is a concept that will be debated for a good many years, perhaps approaching infinity. Always getting that little bit closer (except when it's going backwards... :p) but never quite reaching...
 
You bring up a completely different topic with that statement. The unfree will of which I have been going on about is quite different than the predetermined lack of free will one would find in a religious debate. In fact, predetermination is impossible (practically) giving this state of affairs. Even more so were the quantum effects to be examined. Take your prophecies elsewhere... :p
 
Article from the Encyclopaedia Britannica

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in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by those who espouse any of various forms of determinism. Arguments for free will are based on the subjective experience of freedom, on sentiments of guilt, on revealed religion, and on the universal supposition of responsibility for personal actions that underlies the concepts of law, reward, punishment, and incentive. In theology, the existence of free will must be reconciled with God's omniscience and goodness (in allowing man to choose badly), and with divine grace, which allegedly is necessary for any meritorious act. A prominent feature of modern Existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre, for example, speaks of the individual “condemned to be free” even though his situation may be wholly determined.
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SouthStar said:
A prominent feature of modern Existentialism is the concept of a radical, perpetual, and frequently agonizing freedom of choice. Jean-Paul Sartre, for example, speaks of the individual “condemned to be free” even though his situation may be wholly determined.

This is what totally freaks me out when it comes to free will ...
 
RosaMagika said:
I can hardly wait ... :)

Sorry, I had a conference this week so i was very busy.

So I was trying to see the value of the scientific explanation from the perspective of simple everyday life.

It probably doesn' mean very much to people going about their everyday lives (as can be seen by the amount of people who still believe they HAVE free will!) but we are here at the philosophy forum. We are supposed to be thinking deeper than ordinary people to find out what is really happening. In that case, we DO NOT have free will within the conditions set out and I think that is a very big thing.

QQ: I think u are seeing this from a purely practical point of view as well. I agree that we have choices and theres so much buffering distance between our world and the quantum world that its incredibly hard to see that we do not actually have free will.
 
QQ: I think u are seeing this from a purely practical point of view as well. I agree that we have choices and theres so much buffering distance between our world and the quantum world that its incredibly hard to see that we do not actually have free will.
I have no argument with this.
 
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