Xev, Femininty is a state of continual artiface. Not only must one's clothing and coiffere be subject to obsessive self-scrutiny, but every mannerism, belief and action must be examined in the light of whatever the current ideal of a woman is. The nature of "feminine" is change, if there is no change it becomes stale. If it becomes stale, it will not be enjoyed, so there is a constrant struggle for acceptance. This ideal, albeit feminine is not exclusive to women as it is not only women who display feminism, it is also within men, but will be stronger in most women. Women are often criticised as shallow and overly fashion oriented, generally by the men who demand this from them economically or as a payment for their tepid affections. This is nature. Male= enjoyer, Female= enjoyed. Although in society we see more women exhibiting masculine traits, there is also a shift to men strongly exhibiting feminine traits, so the above equation is mixed. Why should femininity be difficult to maintain? Adornment is common to every known culture, but a modern woman's adornments consume her. The stakes are now higher which means more has to be achieved in order to stand out from the crowd. The answer is simple – femininity is a myth. The conclusions drawn from it, maybe, but there is a female aspect to this world which is exhibited by all creatures in some way or other. .......a lioness welcomes the advances of the lion who has just killed her mate. Because this is her nature, she wants the pleasure being under the protection of the strongest male, for the welfare of the pride. The feminine qualities – passivity, supplience, helplessness and general disgustingness – do not occur in nature and are quickly wiped out when they do. Because the struggle for existence is very hard. In other words, femininity is unnatural. Not if the required goals are met. The woman is a social construction – Not meaning to point out the obvious, but a social construction is itself a construction, (a work in progress) and as such woman/female needs constants reinvention of superficial self. Jan Ardena.
Twat: Oh, shutup. I've got a 9 mm here with your name on it. LucySnow: Of course it is- especially for these silly things we call women. She's the cornerstone for romance novels and the only thing keeping the market alive is her brain. However, keep snooping. Whatever you find should be interesting. The experience can only be a truth if its wholesome is what I think. And no, I've never experienced sexual bliss. The human touch has always been unpleasent to me, you have no idea- but I'm not immune to it. Depending. Amen. What's with this guy? Wanderer: Hysterical. I bet you're the rave in Spain nowadays. Imagine all the legends and legends of Wandy the bullfighting wonder- how simply admirable. Nothing, huh? Fresh recap: Wanderer: "The rapture of living can only be felt with another or others that see and feel what you do " Gendanken: "Why 'only'? I've felt it alone- many times. Still do. This rapture only enhances its pleasures when one shares it. Period." Wanderer: "What I meant to say" - 02-10-04, 11:21 PM (From "Personal is Political Thread) Never fuck with a woman's memory- get your stories straight will you? You're staring to sound schizoid. Things only mean nothing if you mean nothing. They mean worlds alone to one alone but a universe when shared. However, this does not make the universe any more necessary or vise versa. Only Mother Teresa has time for the needy. All those "needing" proof are nosy bystanders- I'm cold to the outiside world. Gendanken is what's fire. Another recap: All the why's and how's and when's you give them are never enough until you finally shut the fuck up and all the reasons for why you are show up all on their own like egg on their face. - gendanken, in this thread. I'm touched. Yet all that 'play acting' (ha) looks so real it betrays something shallow that's alien to me. Oh, but he cries in the dark....awww. Miffed? Played and played now game over with those people, what the fuck do they know? What entitles them to any part of me? Curiosity? Benevolence? Oh? Look, you- by playing the game.... THAT's how one becomes like them. Solitude is preferable to their society. Now shut up with your lotteries. No I wasn't. Yes, now look how the malconent little platypus smacks his lips on that very idea. How he rubs the misfortune of others with his paws......muskrat one day, platypus the other, bats and wombats, all his toros.... my what a little circus we have going on here. Know what I like about irony? How it takes your own thoughts and reveals what they look like on their backs in broad daylight. You can say the same for anyone...but you, you're something else. A man can understand a whole bloody universe, its thermodynamics and how the sun works, the gravity laws and the chemical ones but how someone else can tie his shoelaces differently than he does or worship some other god..... THAT he does not understand. Fools. Well, it is for pahological misers who sell themselves to their public. This makes you a prostitute in my book, dude. Not everyone functions on sex, buddy. You have NO idea. (.....but look how he bolded it and everthing. EVERTHING, goes he. There's even an exclamation mark at the end with his drool on it)
Jan Ardena: Begone, Judeo-Christian swine. Do not talk about "nature" when a little woman like me could smash your fucking skull in while screaming for Tyr. Gendanken - Wanderer Take it outside.
Xev: Fiat lux- I'm beginning to see how you've linked her integral function- that of labor- with the whole image of weakness that's tied to her being. That troubled me. Understand- in my mind it was not the curves of my body nor the fragile frame that shattered the image of power when I stood there naked, it was the postures and mannerisms that one learns from society that did it. But you've harnessed it- all those feminine habits and traits- by calling it a coping mechanism that she had to resort to only to compensate for the occupational hazards that came with being what she is. The being pushed aside and defenselessness. Yes? Analysis: You mispelled abilities, but that's besides the point. Understood. However, I disagree on the time frame. I don't see her powerlessness then as being exploited as much as it was put up with or tolerated. It was only until the leasure of the industrial years- Western wise anway- that she became prey to organized suggestion and intimidation. Exploitation galore. Coping mechanism- I like it. Coping mechanism, coping mechanism..I'm stealing that one. Ditto. I'd say the value system of the herd manipulates itself by sheer presence alone- meaning hers. All she has to do is stand there, figuratively speaking. She exaggerates them further by emphasizing those very traits the herd submits to- looks and mannerisms. Reminds me of the teddy bear. You ever seen how teddy bears used to look in past centuries? Very adult featured- small forehead, long nose, small head, beady eyes and the the colors were fucking, fucking drab. But little by litte as the market grew, manufacturers noticed that some brands were selling more than others and when they looked they noticed why. Bears with bigger foreheads and large eyes were selling faster than the other ones were. Enter some some clever pscychology and its found that as humans we are somehow genetically coded to be attracted to the same underlying thing- large forehead, big eyes, small nose, big head and rosy colors. You find this trait in all baby mammals- seals, polar bears, dogs, cats, lions...yada ya. Which is why we are moved to protect babies just by looking at them. And so, the modern teddybear and the new look and voila- selling like hotcakes. Seems nature really is a clever minx. No wonder they feminize her. Chinese women did what? Come again? I still maintain its largely cultural- elephants are matriarchal and the oldest females far outweigh the males. Brown hyenas and some other animals that escape me- (used to work at a zoo long ago) lyre birds for another- in all these species and more do the females trump the males in what we consider 'masculine'. But on what you are saying: those few that actually try rejecting it pay a hard price- there's always a blasted price to pay when resisting majority pressure. Do this, and they'll respect it but you get your birthright as a woman socially rubbed in your face (old maid garbage). Do that, and they won't respect it but drool after it and reinforce the very thing that you mimic : weakness. Damn if you do, damned if you don't. Schizophrenia. Told you I saw Monster last Friday- man pulls his pants down and looks down on her with sheer disgust as she's blowing him- I mean disgust, a loathing I'd give the little fuck an Oscar for and he goes: "I love you bitches- all you bitches. But I hate you all." This makes them schizo, no? Both split.
Xev: He started it. But enough of his rot, you wrote this? You write also? **edit*** LucySnow: Ummm.....no. Walk in sterile, leave sterile- an umbrella term I use for all human interactions. Indifference to warmth, emotions, all the baggage that's so nice and awful, useful and detrimental, lovely and ugly simultaneously. Follow?
gendanken Do you like my matador suit? Nice and tight to show off my bulges. Why stop the recap? Continue with the quote, or is your memory selective? Schizoid? Isn’t that the topic of this thread? Who’s talking about life or the universe from an objective perspective? Whoever is, is a moron. All perspectives are subjective. In this case everything has meaning or not from a human point of view. More specifically...MINE! What are you God deciding what the universe is from the outside? I could care less if the universe is necessary. Necessary for whom and for what? I'm here so it's necessary for me. Perspectivism. Ok, now ask me if I care. That’s right push people away. I think there are volumes of empty pages waiting for you to fill them with your misery. Necessity. I don't like it either. No, you become like them only if you get caught up in the part. If you don’t it’s just fun or funny. Yes you were. That’s it, hit the first one in front of you like you want to hit him. If it’s a circus it’s one I didn’t start, I just fell into it and adapted. This is not the entire me, this is me in a clowns outfit. Care to peel off the paint? You must know a lot about irony. You can’t even imagine my thoughts. You’re too busy with yourself. I look at the world. Now tell me about your suffering, how that girl stole that shiny new hair-pin you had in the second grade, how the boys teased you, how the world doesn’t take you seriously because you are too sexy and too hot, how you don’t get respect because you have large breasts. Tell me how you prefer solitude because you can’t find a man to slap you to your senses because you scare them away with your sneer and your large words. Let me weep over your toils and troubles. It must be hard being you. You have no idea what suffering is! You just read it in books and imagine it by exaggerating your own. “Oh, I hate the world because it opens doors to me I did not earn, I hate men because they just want to fuck me, I hate myself because I like it." Jeez.... I understand nothing about the universe nor do I fully comprehend the Laws of Thermodynamics but how shoelaces are tied and why, THAT I know very well. Show me how you tie a knot and I'll tell you who you are. What am I selling then? And you? I wasn't aware I had a public. Nobody I can exploit anyways. Oh, I think I’m beginning to. That would explain all the hostility and anger. She says: I think you need a good fucking to relax a bit and not take yourself so seriously. It’s a nice phallic symbol don’t you think?
gendanken: See? It's not even that it's her function, it's that her function is crippling. She's dependant on society and dependant on men. Wait - you know I never say anything without a Nietzsche quote: "Comparing man and woman on the whole, one may say: woman would not have the genius for finery if she did not have an instinct for a secondary role" That's what femininity is rooted in. I know. I never realized I was a girl when I was growing up - neither did my boyfriends until I hit puberty. Fact is - I still don't realize it. You should see me in a mosh pit. Basically. So spank me. You misspelled "misspelled". Bit of both. Put up with? Her powerlessness breeds exploitation, as all powerlessness does. I'm not going to say "the evil patriarchy did x, y and z" - but as I see it, her initial vulnerability reacts with the needs of others and they feed each other. What about the Jews? Plenty of organized suggestion before industry was around. Industry only feeds it. I'll buy that. I'm not saying anyone consciously manipulates the system - society is organic - but femininity does end up benefitting her, even though it does enslave her. Men are stupid - how many women have been able to use the feminine to bilk them out of things? All is in flux. Bingo. Femininity evolved, that's how. http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/studpages/vento.html You want to see something really gross: http://www2.marianopolis.edu/tws/Footbinding/bndfeet2.jpg (Those are her toes curled around her instep) I agree it is. Look at how the feminine ideal is changing in the West because of industrialization. I wonder, though... Bingo. Remind me to see that one. "Men are odd. They do not permit us to be only women, I mean women with all their weaknesses; but they do not for a moment let us forget we are only women" 'Course now schitzophrenia is getting worse - with the rise of the "masculinist" movement, men are trying to be women. Ha ha, let's hope it all ends in fire. He did. I'm not sure what it has to do with femininity anyways. Yeah, I write. You too?
Wanderer: Men in panties and firey demise....sounds like a fetishist Bathory fan. No, now you're trying to force me into the role of giggling over what an asshole you are. You want to criticize my thread as intellectual bitching? Go a-fucking head. But get this straight - nobody, no-fucking-body is complaining about shit. Yes, I admit I find it pathetic. Yes, I admit I'm writing from personal experiences. That doesn't make this whining anymore than it makes "Phenomenology of Spirit" whining because Hegel was a fucking misanthrope. Dollars to dimes most of gendanken's friends are male. "Misandry" as an accusation won't fly. I like men. I cannot fucking stand women. How the fuck would you know? Even if you did, what kind of game is "my suffering trumps yours!"?
The nature of life is change, because without change and our being able to adapt, we die. And yes while the notion of femininity is not exclusive to women, it is seen as a weak trait regardless of who exhibits those traits. Women are seen to be the weaker sex because we are women and because we exhibit the so called feminine traits. A man will be considred weak if he exhibits his feminine side. The whole notion that society has placed on the trait of being feminine is one that is weak, regardless of change. That statement makes me want to scream. In fact I think I shall... aaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! Refer to above about women and femininity being a weak trait.. by society deeming it to be so weak, men are SEEN to be the 'enjoyer' and we weaker women are automatically deemed to be the 'enjoyed' because society has deemed that she should be so. This is not natural. A woman who is an 'enjoyer' is seen to be masculine or butch and not conforming to the roles society has deemed that she should inhabit... in other words, a woman who is not feminine or who is not the 'enjoyed' is not deemed to be a proper woman. That is the whole aspect of the 'feminine' debate. We are placed in a weaker role and therefore seen to be the enjoyed. Yet I can't think of any other animal where this is the case. The lioness was used as an example. A lioness is the one who hunts for her offspring, the male on most occasions will come along and bully her into giving away her kill. The reason being because the male is superior to her in strength. But you get a big lioness and a pissant young male and she will tear him to shreds for even attempting to take her kill. She then becomes the enjoyer and the male becomes the weaker sex. Now you look at any lioness and see if she's feminine? Try and find any animal and see if you can find notions of femininity? The stakes to what exactly? To social status? To finding a mate? To looking 'purdy'? The stakes are not higher Jan, they are the same as they were at the start. Uh huh. Sure there is a female aspect in this world. And yes it is exhibited in all creatures. It's because women in general have a womb. Females can reproduce. However, where in other creatures do we see notions of femininity? I can only think of one. Humans. The ability to reproduce does not make us the weaker sex in need of male protection. You try telling a woman who's just pushed out a 3 kilogram baby that she's the weaker sex and she'll likely tear your limbs off. Oh my God! That statement actually made my eye twitch. Please tell me that you're not equating that to the human society. Please, because if you are then that will bring on another scream.
*Gendy* Quote:...especially for these silly things we call women Why you think it is different for men? Men may sensualize in their head but the feeling is definitely in their cock? Quote:Indifference to warmth, emotions, all the baggage that's so nice and awful, useful and detrimental, lovely and ugly simultaneously. LOL. Great! I'll invite you over for my family get together; you would simply adore my mother. But I can't say this is my ideal; I want to be indifferent when it is useful to be indifferent; I don't want to be insensate or unmoved. Quote:Chinese women did what? Come again? It's called footbinding and was practised by the aristocracy. The mother's would bind their daughters feet at an early age breaking the bones into 'six inch lotus flowers'. This of course prevented the female from movement. Men of the era fetishized the 'lotus foot' and believed it made sex better. A woman could have been beautiful but if her feet were not bound she would have had much difficulty finding a husband. poor women tried to emulate it. I actually own a pair acquired in Hong Kong...wish I could send you a picture they are beautiful (embroided silk and solid heel, narrowing to a point) but when you think of how 'tiny' the foot must have been...shudder to think. Manchu women didn't bind their feet, it was a Han practise. *Xev* Quote:For others: sex, being mental, requires attraction that's more than physical. For many I would say. I don't know very many women or men who rely purely on the physical. Quote:Where does sexual bliss reside? "Nothing in the mind, is not first in the senses" says Aristotle. But the mind is what interprets those senses. A touch excites the nerves in the skin, they send that message to the brain at the speed of light and the brain responds by releasing whatever chemicals Yes but that is my point. The nerves in the skin send the message to the brain. If one never knows touch then one can not understand the fulfillment of sexual bliss...they may know a type of bliss but not the fulfillment of it. When I go for long periods without sex I am not without sensuality or sexuality but this is not the same as being immersed in sexual ecstasy. However if you prefer one to the other that is your perogative; I reject neither. Quote:Told you I saw Monster last Friday- man pulls his pants down and looks down on her with sheer disgust as she's blowing him- I mean disgust, a loathing I'd give the little fuck an Oscar for and he goes: "I love you bitches- all you bitches. But I hate you all." This makes them schizo, no? Both split. Yes it is schizo; he projects his shame unto the woman...she the so called 'slut', 'bitch' is identified with his shame.
Thats not true. Bull elephants are substantially larger than female elephants. They are much taller and might be something like a thousand pounds heavier in some cases, not sure about that though. The elephants group is matriarchal because adult male elephants are solitary. Males come accross groups of females and then try to force them into sex, kicking them hard if they refuse, throwing rocks and sticks at them with their trunks and pissing on their babies in anger- all things I have seen and there's more. Elephant society isn't a very good example of "women wearing the pants" is basically what i'm saying. Xev, That post summed it up well I think, some points I never thought about but now that I do i can definately see evidence for them. Especially women being hyper-social, even seemingly intelligent females will hold their social lives above all else and focus all their intelligence on having a more efficient and enviable(is that a word?) social life. Your explanation for why makes sense, certainly better than the explanation I have been resting on- "they're idiots". I think more so than men a solitary female would have been at a disadvantage on the plains, with children especially. Think of the rogue gangs of teenage boys, I think without civilisations tendency to punish and seek justice plaguing their instinct of self preservation, gangs of teenage males would kill pretty much anything they could. This is probably why the female has learned to hold her social skills in high regard and take them so very seriously. At one stage it was probably vital that she did. A strong man is more than just a sperm donation to the females instincts, its a suit of armour. Kind of makes me wonder if when females say "is all you ever think about sexPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!" they're thinking "can't you also think about preventing people from murdering mePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!".
Wanderer: Men sell, women buy...... I prefer to let the customer come up to me and ask to see my wares Wanderer, 2-22-04 This is because women buy and men sell….remember? Wanderer, 3-01-04 Idiot. Xev: Goddamn was that man ever beautiful. Perfectly understood. Ha! You mosh? Growing up the ugly duckling with a small baby afro that just wouldn't grow, on a farm mind you, imagine my surprise when I looked down one day and saw these small fleshy lemons sprout out of nowhere. Classic. Classic, classic, classic. Ah. Symbiotic evolution. And no, I've never blamed the 'patriarchy' either. I hate how they throw that word and image around. Like 'paradigm shifts' and 'dichotomies' among Quinzubros. Here's the best point: GOOD point. But do you see that with them they are being dictated to from within? Meaning: mass media dictates from without. This is what I call organized suggestion or intimidation. Maybe I've missed your point entirely. If so, eat me. Ditto. And when you mentioned the Chinese and the cripples, I was not aware you meant footbinding. I already knew of the practice and had seen the atrocities. Disgusting- they look like plucked chickens. .....in step with what I was telling Fuglyboy earlier- if the justification for a man doing hard labor has always been the size of his body and hands, then what now that electric drills and buttons do everything for you? Infuckingdeedy. And may we all gather round a rumproast of Oprahs and Dr. Phils burning to a crisp in the bonfire, and let us kindle the flames with guidance counselors, advice columnists, and Christians. Amen. Pointing out facts, outlining chronolgoies and extrapolating from analogies is NOT whining. But the fucker is free to call it whining all he wants. And apples to oranges- yup, they're male. As for the last comment in bold- Bells is a good reason why. By the way, "Misandry" is almost as common as "little girl". Funny, huh? Yes. I can stand a groping, a playfight or something as hard. Its the caress that....creeps me out, so to speak or repulses me. A small touch and all that saccharine crap of sweet nothings whispered in the ear, or a hand on my lap- no thank you. Don't know about you but I had to warm my way up to the act of kissing- for the longest time it felt like your face was being jabbed by a piece of wet liver. For some reason I can only tolerate a grasp, not a careess. Being grabbed not held. All the soft.....mush...requires some state of mind I'm missing or can't have or can't stomach. Don't know. Follow?
Dr. Lou Natic: Damn. Do you watch nothing but Nature? Fuck yeah. And she'd have to have children. Otherwise her genes would be no more. What makes sense is groups of women raising each other's children, and tearing each other's throats out because altruism isn't the most sound evolutionary strategy (Robert Axelrod has some interesting insights on this) Which is basically the way things work, yes? But monogamy complicates the situation. All of a sudden humans are more independant. More accurately, they'd kill any child she had with her and rape her. Anything else would be silly.
LucySnow: Precisamente. Lucy, I'll be honest with you. I'm fucked. I'd love, especially now, to BE the marble statue all the way down to the granite inside. But I'm not- things peek out here and there unwittingly and while not complaining about it- itd be damn useful sometimes in dealing with people. Period. (and don't ever invite me to your reuniouns unless you'd like castor beans sprinkled on the guacamole). I was aware of it and the practice is as fucked as the Chinese are about sending their children off nowadays to slave camps where the state molds them into prize atheletes. Those mangled stumps are the ugliest things next to clit piercings I've ever seen in my life.
While I will admit that my Paslode has ruined my ability to effectively wield a hammer, I must take exception with this point. Those 3/4" pieces of OSB don't carry themselves, and they aren't getting any lighter. After a day of carrying several dozen of them from the pile to the deck, my back is tired, and it ain't because I'm out of shape. They are still HEAVY. Nothing is going to change that anytime soon. Now while I admit my garage looks like a trade show booth for DeWalt and Porter-Cable, I still take issue with the idea that "heavy lifting" isn't still an integral part of the business. Come meet me at the jobsite tomorrow and I'll show you what I mean. My high-tech tools only carry me so far. I still have to grab it and growl several times a day to get my job done.
15of19: Look at those cute terms..Paslode....OSB.......Deawalt. Oohhhh...... So get you a tractor or a forklift. I say again, Gendanken can build her a house, all on her own without breaking a nail now. It is if you insist on taking the stairs when there's an elevator in the lobby. But if you'd like to keep lifting like an idiot just to prove something- and not saying you are so keep the panties on- then you have all the freedom in the world to.
My dear Gendy, would that I could bring you along for a "go to work with ...." kind of day. Forklifts and whatnot are great tools, but certainly not feasible or applicable to just any situation. It's clear you have never built a house, or remodeled one; something I have done many times. That's not a problem. But don't act as if you understand that of which you speak. Admit you don't understand the concept and move on. Otherwise, you just look like a feeble wannabe. What sort of work do you do for a living anyway Gendy?
Quote:"Comparing man and woman on the whole, one may say: woman would not have the genius for finery if she did not have an instinct for a secondary role" LOL. That's probably what he said to Salome as she was working out the door with his 'head' in her hand!
