Does God care about atheists

[Jan Ardena]

Alex, where have I argued that the soul exists?
I may believe we are essentially spiritual beings, but I have not stated that as any part of my responses to you.
So why are you barking up the wrong tree? Could it be yet another dodge?

jan.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

especially in light of unusual incidents that people have experienced that seem to point to some form of existence or extension of consciousness after physical death.

There was research on this I seem to recall which was not helpful to those suggesting both out of body experience or the light at the end of the tunnel thing.

In any event as Micheal points out the soul does not rate mention in the medical world at all.
If one claims something one needs proof.
If I claim there are aliens I need proof. I can however speculate there are aliens but we need to remember what is speculation.
The prospect of a soul is speculation and if we are asked to proceed on the basis the soul is real that is clearly wrong.
So the soul is no more than a belief which is no more than an opinion an opinion with no support from medical folk the very ones who we could presume to know more about the human body than us.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Alex, where have I argued that the soul exists?
I may believe we are essentially spiritual beings, but I have not stated that as any part of my responses to you.
So why are you barking up the wrong tree? Could it be yet another dodge?

jan.

I dont know how the soul came up and I dont intend going back to find out.
Lets use the fresh slate approach.
Less discuss the concept of the soul.
I know very little about the idea so I ask exactly what is the concept and where does it originate?
And can we discuss how the soul fits into the doctrine of Christianity.
And I promise to be good.
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

actually, this is not pure logic. the 'onus' is not necessarily on him either when it comes to a theory (a 'sense' of self can be construed as a soul or possibly) . this is a rule (whose onus) that has been set up and followed is a protocol of the scientific method but it's still a construct. this mistake often comes up and repeated in matters where there is no definitive evidence either way, otherwise it would be easy to disprove. when something is obviously erroneous, there is no need to push the onus on one side because it can legitimately be tackled or analyzed to dispel it completely.

the bolded sentence/statement is no more valid than a statement that there is a soul because you have no proof there is not one either. in actuality, it's as much guessing, conjecture and assumption based on nothing concrete to make such an emphatic statement. it is the same as "i say there are no aliens" or 'there is no other universe' or 'there is no life on other planets' merely because you can't prove otherwise or you have not seen or experienced it.

the truth is neither of you can prove your position or belief. but the concept and the possibility of a soul has interesting implications nonetheless. especially in light of unusual incidents that people have experienced that seem to point to some form of existence or extension of consciousness after physical death. not that this is the case but it's not completely understood either. this gives it some reason or weight to consider for some or it's understandable why it would be considered a possibility.

All very well put

My take on this, as it is on many of the discussions in this and other forums, is the confusion between a PROCESS and a INGREDIENT

Example
You can put all the ingredients for a cake into a bowl, the ingredients have a physical presence and can be felt, measured and as such EXIST
After the mixing you still would not call the mix a cake
You need to put the mixed ingredients through a process, cooking

Same with the body. You can put all the ingredients of a body in a pile but you would not call the pile a person. The pile would need to be arranged in a certain way AND have the process of life going on

Those advocating a soul have the burden of proof because of the claim souls EXIST. As it is well established burden of proof never falls on proving non existent.

Now the CONCEPT of a soul is a nice idea and in short form the soul is the essence of you which goes heaven / hell. It fits the mental picture of the body remaining to fade away but you (the essence, the soul) goes to what/wherever

So for me EXIST is the operative word. If it (whatever concept you are proposing) cannot be placed on the table to be weighed, measured sliced and diced IT DOES NOT EXIST

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I read this....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul
Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

I dont know how the soul came up and I dont intend going back to find out.

I asked if you were aware of the concept of the soul. It was in regard to your argument from evil.

Less discuss the concept of the soul.

We are already discussing it. At least I am.

I know very little about the idea so I ask exactly what is the concept and where does it originate?

It did not originate, as far as I know. As you know the ''soul'' or the concept of a soul, is man made, I imagine you know why, given that you only deal with the facts.

And can we discuss how the soul fits into the doctrine of Christianity.

The ''idea of the soul'' fits into everything. To ask how it fits in with Christianity is a pointless question.
We'll start of with the idea that you are not your body. You have acquired a body. What do you think to that?

And I promise to be good.

Be yourself. If you cannot contain being ''good'', then we can discuss that.

jan.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

It was in regard to your argument from evil

Mmmmm I have not heard of that one Jan ...does such a form of arguement exist or did you make it up just for me...either is ok but if the first I would like to read up.

We are already discussing it. At least I am.

We were but you seemed to alledge that we were not and hence my responce.
And if we were my contribution was to ask questions you would not take seriously, and to which wiki could not help, and I have looked ...great entry in wiki by the way.
The soul idea goes back to Eygpyt at least.
And I note that although the soul notion has been around since it seems recorded history the notes in the science part of the wiki link do not support the notion.

It did not originate, as far as I know. As you know the ''soul'' or the concept of a soul, is man made, I imagine you know why, given that you only deal with the facts.

You are having a dig I can tell.
OK lets approach the matter without relying on facts...you lead because I need facts and seemingly although enlightened not spiritual.

The ''idea of the soul'' fits into everything. To ask how it fits in with Christianity is a pointless question.

Certainly the soul figures in most mythology according to wiki. ..certainly not limited to the religions in the bible.
But to say the question is pointless sortta brushes aside the importance of christianity really.
Does not worry me we can discuss where the idea started its history even how it fits into your world view.
I am here eager to discuss...I even read up so I could offer inteligent input...and dont you dare say that would be a first.

You have acquired a body.

You mean me, my body and nothing more?
Well lets discuss my body and if I can entertain your first proposition.
Do you propose "I" existed before my body and that at some point I moved into my body?
I dont see it that way really me and my body are one we are one unit...in my view.
You suggest otherwise I guess so go on as if I "aquired" my body.
I will try to understand even if I dont agree. ..thats the game you suggested earlier.

Be yourself. If you cannot contain being ''good'', then we can discuss that.

I have no problem being good because I am an atheist...we are exceptionally good people...but you know that already.

Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

And I do wish you would answer my questions I listed as I really would like to know ...I can not imagine how folk see the soul or where all the souls live or exist.
Alex

 

[kx000]

My highlight from the extract from your post

From where do YOU obtain the definitive MUST?

What other options have been dismissed to arrive at MUST?

Seems no wriggle room allowed for god or jc. And we are taking about god - someone who created the Universe - and his offspring - and you are using MUST?

Again can you list other dismissed options and explain why those other options CANNOT be a jc option?

If you believe your passive.

 

[kx000]

So God has the power to send down his Son and let him be crucified, why one should ask? Why the need to indulge such cruelty to your one and only Son?...who presumably as in the form of a human would feel as a human would...Do you have any idea the pain of a crucifixion. ..do you?
And God needed to do this because?
Dont you get the feeling something is horribly wrong with the story?

Where is your ability to think and reason?

I follow certain teachings you would attribute to Jesus about respect for others and loving others..that is good...but one must ask why does God not love others such that he has mercy and shows compassion for inoccent victims?

Cant you see the idiotic hypocracy dripping from the nonsense we call religion.

And why is it not right...because it is all made up...invented by folk who two thousand years ago had no idea...it is now 2018 and you wish to rely upon made up stuff that was not right then and is not right now.

Those ancients could be excused for sheer ignorance yet here we are in 2018 and you still think they has an idea?

Believe what you want, deny what you must but please take an hour to think it through...make a list of what does not make sense..
Have a big note book ready and a few spare pens...then try to be honest with yourself.
Faith is an opinion and an opinion can be wrong...are you absolutely sure you are not just a little bit wrong.

I was religious once..just rattled off what had been programed into me but one day I stopped and thought if God loves humans and with his power why not do ot better...well the reason its not bettet is because he does not exist...does that make any sense to you?
Alex

Why would they be helpless at all if God created us?

 

[Michael 345]

If you believe your passive.

Which, apart from not answering a single question posed, means exactly what?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Why would they be helpless at all if God created us?

Well you would think that if God created us we would be given more to resist oppression...take rape with a knife at your throat what has God given the victim...zip.

So your observation points to no God wouldnt you think.

I notice my words seem lost on you.

Do you skip everything that encourages you to face reality.
Because it sure seems that way.
Have you any better solution on how to prevent suffering?
Because it certainly seems there is no God who will act.

Alex

 

[spidergoat]

Beethoven went deaf. Of course there's no god.

 

[Michael 345]

Because it certainly seems there is no God who will act.

I had a great thought bubble just as I left the house
god is not a great sales promoter for heaven is he?
Wants everyone to be with him in Cloudland Paradise right?
Do you really think his representatives down here are doing a good job?
Ask them about hell and you get a 4 ½ hour episodes series about fire, brimstone, burning and suffering
Ask about heaven you get 10 minutes of up there, clouds, sit around and sing his praises

How about heaven gives us mortals a genuine taste?

Arrange a tour, like a time share tour

Like it, go home (Earth), think about it, really like it and buy into it
Don't like, go home and sin your arse off

If you're up there god, I don't believe in you but I would make a hell of rep and fill heaven for you

I'll even design the T shirts, caps, key rings and bottle openers for free

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I had a great thought bubble just as I left the house
god is not a great sales promoter for heaven is he?
Wants everyone to be with him in Cloudland Paradise right?

I was a professional salesman and coincidentally sold real estate...you see where I am going with this.
Now my heaven will be close to everything and you get to keep your body, well of course it will be totally repaired and made brand new...plus you get all your pets back...fast internet to communicate with those left behind.
Wont even need a hell because well people will want to get in....
And big pigeons to ride, fluffy tigers that are vegetarian, and then there will be waterfront with sky slopes...
Now isnt that worth 10% of your income, plus all your worldy assets when you ....when you come to get a body rebuild...see positive new age now.

Alex

 

[Michael 345]

plus all your worldy assets when you

AND? - T shirt - cap - bottle opener - keys to the kingdom key ring?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

AND? - T shirt - cap - bottle opener - keys to the kingdom key ring?

Of course.
Did you read that link I put up re the soul.
It is interesting how far you can trace the concept back and how it figures in so many cultures.
I really think Jan may be onto something as surely that many people could not be wrong.
And one chap was able to determine that the soul weighed 35 grams.
Some sceptics tried to say his methods were not reliable but I bet they were just doctors who did not want to admit they hadn't weighed a soul before.
Hows that for a slow underarm for you
a six or what?
Personally I think the soul would weigh considerably less than 35 grams probably as much less as an ounce and 6 1/2 grams.
More tests are needed.
I propose we seek funding.

Plus we must not overlook telemarketing to promote the idea.

But some research ...how many souls need accomodation at the moment and contact the designer to see if he has kept all the plans, I mean some of those souls, their bodies, there may not be much to work with without plans.

Alex

 

[Michael 345]

And one chap was able to determine that the soul weighed 35 grams.

The movie put it at 11 gram. But you know how movies are not always accurate
If we are talking about the same chap looking for the soul I think the method used was a bed which held a dying person was set up on a balance scale. At the moment of death the balance was said to loose 35 gram

I'm sorry I can't write any more so excuse the wobbly post as I have collapsed on the floor laughing

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I'm sorry I can't write any more so excuse the wobbly post as I have collapsed on the floor laughing

I have been thinking ...does a female soul weigh generally less than a male soul?
Can a soul stand near air conditioning or well you know, will they like their body before them get sucked in?

I have heard some souls are black even when their bodies are white...
What is this black thing or dark thing that creeps into even our science...more research more funding.
So much to learn.
Alex

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Then don't act as though you want a discussion with me. I think I can just about live with that, although it will be hard.

Oh yeah, all you did was post a blog so it's more you didn't even try discussing anything...

Just sayin' is all.