Clear the table and lay out the facts Jan.
When it comes to fundamental belief systems, it is not as simple as laying out facts. I'm you can appreciate that.
The fact the notion comes from religion certainly destroys my ability to say..yes this seems reasonable..and see it? Can you see a soul?
Which religion specifically did it come from Alex? Or is it something that religions make reference to, and you mistakenly think it comes from religion?
The idea (I'll call it that) is that you are the soul, and have developed a
body. You already make reference to that idea by claiming ownership of it.
However, you never claim ownership of yourself? Why? How would you verbalise ownership of yourself, without referring to yourself.
If you wish to believe there is a soul then is it not reasonable to ask upon what facts do you rely upon otherwise your belief can not extend beyond a fantasy.
You don't comprehend fully, the concept of the soul? Which is why I'm helping you out in that area. I think you should at least know something about what you vehemently deny.
That way at least you cannot claim ignorance.
Why would I choose words that somehow do not fit my belief.
That makes your whole belief system circular. Which is what I've been intimating all along.
Your belief system keeps you in constant ignorance.
Do you choose words that don't fit your belief if so why would you?
For one start, I'm not arguing for a belief system. I'm laying out an idea, without having to believe it. If I wanted to I could lay out an atheist idea, I've discussed with enough of you.
The point is, this is discussion, Alex. We can pit ideas against other ideas, debate them, and see what comes out. The problem is though, you cannot.
Perhaps you mean...just because you have no evidence you are not going to believe any made up stories...yep here we go.
No. What I mean is, you have basically stopped the flow of the discussion, with your belief system. It's no different to talking to a Jehova's Witness, but in the atheist styleee. There's no reasoning with you.
Entirely reasonable Jan and most importantly an honest approach.
It is based on ignorance, Alex.
You can't learn anything, because your belief system kicks in. Either you think you already know what I'm going to say, and try to head me off at the pass, or you don't want to comprehend anything I have to say, probably because you don't want to learn anything. Either way it is ignorance.
What in the circumstances would you consider reasonable Jan using words that dont fit my or your belief?
Ask yourself. How do we obtain knowledge?
We must know something. How do we get to know? Do we get knowledge by sticking to our belief systems? Or do we get it, whether we have belief systems or not. You must know something, you work it out.
Kind of does not.
Your logic leaps from no facts to a solid conclusion faster than a heart beat and you wonder why you suffer in arguement.
So if I say ''that is my car'', doesn't that mean that I am separate from the car?
Nevertheless I do wonder where "I" is sometimes...its a thought somewhere in my brain. But even wondering where that function takes place offers no conclusion that there is a soul.
That doesn't make any sense, if you really think about it.
Imagine someone proclaim to be currently in the most important room in his house, while standing at the front gate looking at the house from the outside. You'd most probably think he was nuts. But that is effectively what you are saying.
''It's my house''
''It's my car''
''It's my wife''
''It's my brain''
Others may explain what is going on but to call it a soul is an un necessary and unwarrented leap.
That's just something atheists say.
I know that's what you believe, and I know you have no idea of the idea of the soul. But it is possible to learn about, seriously, without having to form a belief, one way or the other. But you have surrender your pride, and take it in properly. Do you think you could do that?
You may as well say ..oh I am thinking ...that is my soul...who else could it be? No Jan.
No you have just made up the soul nothing more.
Poor you, Alex.
If you are confident that is the way of it jump out in front of a bus and get back to me...we can go to your funeral together.
Another silly remark?
Is this what it has come to. Comedy?
That only means I can think about things without accepting any notion that arrives with that understanding.
Good things comes to those who wait. I think that actually makes a lot of sense. You're in serious denial at the moment, and you are rejecting everything. It is very obvious. So I would advise you to stay in your ignorance, until such time you decide that you want to learn more.
You are afraid of dieing I suspect and you need a reason as to why you are here.
And it's no surprise that what you suspect is in line with modern atheism. Gee! I wonder if they are somehow linked?
You don't, Alex. You don't.
I exist in my own personal eternity for I dont know when I got here and I wont know when I leave.
But yet you know the idea of the soul is a made up concept. With that ability I would have thought those two tasks, childs play.
My consciousness has no personal limit and I dont fear death...mind you I keep out of the way of buses.
Now you know about your consciousness?
Come on! You should piss those two tasks.
I like to believe I help others close to me simply by showing strength of character in adverse situations and humility in moments of success.
Why?
I am there for others and that makes me feel good...there is no sense behind that but that is how I manage the realisation that I have one life, that it is not a rehearsal and I better make the most of it and do my best.
I do the right thing because I want to respect myself and never feel guilty that I have been less than decent.
These sound like pretty good standards, and I suspect you want to be a good person. My question is what makes these qualities good? How do you ascertain what is
good?
You said something like ''it makes me feel good''. What if murder makes someone feel good, should they do it? No? Why?
Clearly I see folk who need a God as weak and although I dont feel superior to them I do wish they could enjoy my strength of character and avoidance of escapism.
Of course you feel superior to me Alex. You won't even take this discussion seriously. It's as if you already know I wrong, mistaken, or deluded. How can you not feel superior to me, or anyone like me?
jan.
