Did God create the universe?

[Pinball1970]

Hi Pinball, hope you're well!

I also think religious people are close minded. An enquiring mind is suited to the agnostic position otherwise you'll learn nothing.

Creationists should not debate as in my time here their beliefs are so alien to atheists, and they shouldn't be, both debaters should have solid understanding of their own material and understand their opponent

Hi Dave, long time no see.
Anyone with a strong view can be closed minded to the other side.
Discussion can get tricky if that is the case.

 

[grzegorzsz830402]

Now, this does actually not PROVE anything.

Yes.

It merely infers an answer which many people find satisfactory.

Not really.

It merely infers that our understanding is incomplete.

And it needs to be updated.

Earth is not flat therefore God did it?

No we needed to update our understanding.

Geocentric model was incorrect therefore God did it?

No we needed to update our understanding.

Ok. If you want to imply that God created reality / universe you are still left with impossible puzzle to solve.

Which one?

Beside you do not need to justify your beliefs.

You are free to believe whatever suits you.

Your beliefs do not have to be logical.

Your justification for them certainly was not.

Beliefs serve a different function.

And even if science will eventually answer questions you currently have, it would not make you abandon your belief in God.

So, logically you have to admit that they are not foundation of your belief.

 

[ольга]

Doesn't Christianity teach that we are all born sinners, evildoers who must find a conscience only through Jesus, Oliphant? If we are already born with a conscience and know right from wrong, then we don't need Jesus, Oliphant.

Мы рождаемся с нарушенной программой, Мартин. Нарушенной нашими предками. "Грех" переводится как "ошибка". Поэтому, мы "во грехе рождённые". Если ваши предки были алкоголиками или наркоманами, например, вам передадутся нарушенные гены("ошибка", "грех"). Поэтому, "дети отвечают за грехи родителей". Но разве Бог не просил не делать ошибок? Разве не сами люди виноваты в этом "грехе"?

 

[ольга]

Exactly Oliphant, religion is like an accessory to be chosen and worn, nothing to do with one God.

Science is not a religion or holy trinket, it is a process of understanding the world around us, something you know very little about, Oliphant.

Yes, you are, or else you would not have said what you said above.

That was you turning science into a religion, Oliphant.

Я просто хочу объяснить тебе смысл религии на понятном тебе языке. Для тебя это наука.

 

[ольга]

That is fine, you are free to wallow in your ignorance and make erroneous proclamations, Oliphant.

Exactly Oliphant, just like I said above, God is an answer when no answers are available. That also includes when the answers are available, but you don't want to hear them or you'll be forced to question your faith. You can't have that, you wouldn't want to know truth.

Мартин, из "ничего" ничего не бывает. Это нарушило бы все законы физики, и все правила математики. Ноль - он и в Африке ноль. Хоть складывай нули, хоть отнимай, хоть умножай - ничего не изменится.

 

[(Q)]

Your attitude hasn't changed.

The bible isn't a science book. bible is subjective science objective, polar opposites. That's why this sub forum is a bit of a waste of time these days.

Yes, the attitude that I don't ever expect you to explain yourself, which you never do, evidently. I asked you specific questions based on your specific claims, yet all you can muster is 'bit of waste of time". Don't tell people they don't understand something and then run away when you can't explain how we are to understand it. All you manage to accomplish is verifying that your beliefs are nonsense and that you don't even understand them yourself.

Here's some scrience for you, the God gene.

Sorry Dave, but that's just a neurotransmitter that can signify brain processing anything from belonging to a political party to believing in a flat earth.

 

[(Q)]

I just want to explain the meaning of religion to you in a language you understand. For you, it's science.

But, you failed to explain anything that I already knew, Oliphant..

 

[(Q)]

Martin, nothing comes from nothing. It would violate all the laws of physics and all the rules of mathematics. Zero is zero, no matter where you are. No matter how you add zeros, subtract them, or multiply them, nothing will change.

Your claim merely shows your ignorance of science and the world around you and makes you look foolish, Oliphant.

 

[(Q)]

We are born with a broken program, Martin. Broken by our ancestors. "Sin" is translated as "mistake." Therefore, we are "born in sin." If your ancestors were alcoholics or drug addicts, for example, you will pass on broken genes ("mistake," "sin"). Therefore, "children are responsible for the sins of their parents." But didn't God ask us not to make mistakes? Aren't people themselves guilty of this "sin"?

It's hilarious how you contradict yourself, Oliphant, first you say we have a built in system of right and wrong and then say we are born in sin because that system is broken and that we are responsible for that broken system created by your God, Oliphant.

 

[ольга]

But, you failed to explain anything that I already knew, Oliphant..

Ну, Мартин, это из-за того, что "до тебя доходит, как до жирафа".

 

[ольга]

Your claim merely shows your ignorance of science and the world around you and makes you look foolish, Oliphant.

Мартин, не проецируй на меня свои проблемы.

 

[ольга]

It's hilarious how you contradict yourself, Oliphant, first you say we have a built in system of right and wrong and then say we are born in sin because that system is broken and that we are responsible for that broken system created by your God, Oliphant.

Мартин, ты и правда дурак, или просто так выглядишь?

 

[(Q)]

Well, Martin, it's because "you get it like a giraffe." Martin, don't project your problems onto me.
Martin, are you really a fool, or do you just look like one?

As a fundamental Orthodox Christian creationist, Oliphant, you have no answers that make any sense, only vapid explanations that contradict each other. You pretend to act smart but fail at every turn to sound reasonable and rational. You barely even know anything about your own religion yet continue to make hilarious claims about it, never once sourcing the Bible. You are as fake a Christian as every other fake Christian, Oliphant.

 

[ольга]

As a fundamental Orthodox Christian creationist, Oliphant, you have no answers that make any sense, only vapid explanations that contradict each other. You pretend to act smart but fail at every turn to sound reasonable and rational. You barely even know anything about your own religion yet continue to make hilarious claims about it, never once sourcing the Bible. You are as fake a Christian as every other fake Christian, Oliphant.

Ну, Мартин - это же у тебя проблемы с пониманием. Я то здесь при чём?

Мартин, а для чего ты живёшь? Можешь не отвечать, просто интересно. Верующие живут для вечности, а ты для чего?

 

[(Q)]

Well, Martin, you're the one with the problems of understanding. What does this have to do with me?

I can understand things quite well when they make sense, when they are based in reality, are reasonable and rational and have some form of intelligence attached to it. But with you, Oliphant, that's not possible.

Martin, what do you live for? You don't have to answer, I'm just curious. Believers live for eternity, and what do you live for?

You are clearly living a foolish lie, taught to you by foolish liars for Jesus, Oliphant.

 

[davewhite04]

Yes, the attitude that I don't ever expect you to explain yourself, which you never do, evidently. I asked you specific questions based on your specific claims, yet all you can muster is 'bit of waste of time". Don't tell people they don't understand something and then run away when you can't explain how we are to understand it. All you manage to accomplish is verifying that your beliefs are nonsense and that you don't even understand them yourself.

Sorry Dave, but that's just a neurotransmitter that can signify brain processing anything from belonging to a political party to believing in a flat earth.

Move along, I've wasted enough time with you.

You've got no intension to discuss anything, firstly your knowledge in this area is lacking to say the least. And you don't want to learn new things and throw out old ideas. So why are you in the religious forum? That was a rheorical question.

 

[ольга]

I can understand things quite well when they make sense, when they are based in reality, are reasonable and rational and have some form of intelligence attached to it. But with you, Oliphant, that's not possible.

You are clearly living a foolish lie, taught to you by foolish liars for Jesus, Oliphant.

Мартин, я же не спрашивала тебя обо мне, я спросила о тебе. Так для чего же ты живёшь, Мартин? Для чего ты жил, любил, страдал, радовался, огорчался, учился, старался что то понять об этом мире... для чего всё это было, Мартин? Для того, чтобы превратиться в прах? Распасться на молекулы, вернуться в первоначальное состояние( "из праха ты взят, и в прах возвратишься")? Ты сам то знаешь ответ?

 

[(Q)]

Move along, I've wasted enough time with you.

You've got no intension to discuss anything,

But Dave, it was you who said this: "The only reason people say it's nonsense is, they don't understand it within there world built within a scientific framework, can't have an open mind."

That Dave, was where you made a bold claim, one that required some explanation, but you didn't provide one. Clearly, it is you who doesn't want to discuss anything. You don't even want to explain your bold claims, you just want to puff up and beat your chest making proclamations of how ignorant the rest of us are because your faith makes no sense. But what's worse, is you refuse to explain how it should make sense.

firstly your knowledge in this area is lacking to say the least. And you don't want to learn new things and throw out old ideas.

Why do you think I asked those questions, why your bold claim requires explanation? If you have deemed that we are lacking knowledge, why do you not provide it so that everyone here can benefit from understanding your faith? Isn't that precisely what Jesus would want you to do?

So why are you in the religious forum? That was a rheorical question.

Freedom of speech, Dave. When you are free to make bold claims of faith, especially one tinged with superiority, we are all free to question those claims, don't you think? Isn't that what discussion is about? If so, why are you running awaaaaaaaaay?

 

[(Q)]

Martin, I didn't ask you about me, I asked about you. So what do you live for, Martin? Why did you live, love, suffer, rejoice, be sad, study, try to understand something about this world... what was all this for, Martin?

I can tell you for absolute certainty, I don't live to worship and obey an invisible god. And if you can't understand a life aside from that, then there is no hope in explaining it to you, Oliphant

In order to turn into dust? To disintegrate into molecules, to return to your original state ("from dust you were taken, and to dust you shall return")? Do you know the answer yourself?

Yes, we are but mold growing on the outside skin of an orange. But I think my good friend, Joni explains it best...

We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

 

[ольга]

I can tell you for absolute certainty, I don't live to worship and obey an invisible god. And if you can't understand a life aside from that, then there is no hope in explaining it to you, Oliphant

Yes, we are but mold growing on the outside skin of an orange. But I think my good friend, Joni explains it best...

We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Я поняла, Мартин. Ты считаешь себя и других "просто плесенью". Вот он, итог атеизма.