Dear Believers, prove your god or gods is/aren't just fiction(s).

[Pinball1970]

So it doesn't really bother me what people believe, as long as it is 1) good for them and 2) isn't causing them to do anything bad.

My comment was a response to Trek suggesting the thread is silly merely because we are asking for some evidence. Something man has been doing for 1000s of years.
"We don't have any." Is a totally reasonable AND honest answer.

We do not get that a lot however.

 

[James R]

Trek:

I notice that you only selectively replied to my post #587, above. It seems like you dodged all the hard questions - the ones that would require you to make an effort.

This kind of behaviour, too, is very reminiscent of another angry man who rage-quit this forum. Are you sure you don't know Jan Ardena?

Is weak evidence, still evidence?

Weak evidence of a possibility is what it is: weak evidence of a possibility.

But you think you've confirmed the reality of your God beyond reasonable doubt, don't you?

You didn't use evidence for that, I take it.

So evidence is only what you personally decide it is then.

I don't know how you reached that conclusion.

I can’t remember the context.
Find the thread and I’ll try and explain it to you

You're reading the thread. Not hard to find.

Look, it doesn't matter. Clearly, you didn't know what you meant when you went off about "standards of evidence". Probably it was just a throw-away comment on your part. Since you've already forgotten about it, I'm happy to forget about it too. I guess you weren't really making any point with it.

No I’m not going to forget God even for a moment. God is the subject matter so let’s focus on that

Why did you dodge my question, there? Your attempts at deflection are quite transparent to me, you know.

Anyway, since this is still about something you obviously didn't think through when you posted it, we can move on.

Sorry mate. Your posts are numerous, on top of other posts. I cannot keep up with the volume.
From now on I will only respond to posts that are relevant to my line of questioning

Is this going to be your ongoing excuse for dodging all the hard questions?

 

[James R]

Never said they couldn’t.

Good. Since we are in agreement about that, you will also agree that it is possible to believe in a God that isn't real. Right?

Some form of understanding has to be be present in order to believe. Otherwise it’s not a belief.

A belief is a conviction that a claim is true or that a state of affairs exists.

I think I can agree that "some form of understanding" of the particulars of the claim or the state of affairs that is the subject of the belief is necessary to hold a belief about the claim or state of affairs.

"Some form of understanding" is very non-specific, however. What are you trying to get at, exactly? Got any examples?

Do you think belief is purely abstract?

I don't know. What does "purely abstract" mean?

Perhaps you can give me an example of something that is purely abstract, something that is abstract but not purely abstract, and something that is not abstract?

Do you think that belief is purely abstract? And why does it matter whether it is purely abstract or not?

How do they become convinced if not through understanding (even if they are mistaken)?

All sorts of reasons. Perhaps a friend told them and they trust their friend. Perhaps the belief "feels right" to them. Perhaps the belief fits neatly into a web of their preconceptions, filling a belief-sized hole in their heart.

People believe all kinds of things they don't understand.

I agree that we can find ourselves in the position of “wanting to believe”, but that only strengthens my point.

Remind me what your point was, again?

We can’t just believe something because we want to, there has to be good reason to convince us.

Not necessarily good reason. We can become convinced of lots of things for lots of very poor reasons. In fact, when the "want to believe" factor is in play, we're more in danger of becoming convinced by poor reasons - or of becoming convincing in the absence of any reason (e.g. purely due to emotion).

Belief is not abstract, it impacts our lives.

That answers my question above. You don't think belief is "purely abstract". You don't think it's "abstract" at all, apparently. What do you mean by "abstract"? Do you just mean "irrelevant to our lives"?

I think I can answer your question then, using your terminology. I agree with you that belief is not "purely abstract", because I agree with your that beliefs impact our lives.

---
We seem to have drifted quite a long way off topic. Shall we make our way back to the thread topic?

We were talking about evidence for God, if I recall correctly. I commented on your top three. How do you respond?

 

[Trek]

Good. Since we are in agreement about that, you will also agree that it is possible to believe in a God that isn't real. Right?

There is only one God (by definition).
But I agree it is possible to believe in things that aren’t real, like Piltdown Man. Do you agree?

A belief is a conviction that a claim is true or that a state of affairs exists.

Nothing more?

I think I can agree that "some form of understanding" of the particulars of the claim or the state of affairs that is the subject of the belief is necessary to hold a belief about the claim or state of affairs.

I’ll accept that.
Now tell your peers

"Some form of understanding" is very non-specific, however. What are you trying to get at, exactly? Got any examples?

I’m prepared to leave it at the above understanding. No need to complicate things further

Not necessarily good reason. We can become convinced of lots of things for lots of very poor reasons.

Good reason/bad reason, only becomes prominent with hindsight, or third party opinions.
Plus what is a bad reason for one, is good for another.
But to the believer, at that moment, it is a good reason. That

I don't know. What does "purely abstract" mean?

Noted. I will change that to “abstract”.

Perhaps you can give me an example of something that is purely abstract, something that is abstract but not purely abstract, and something that is not abstract?

Ideas are abstract.
Do you agree?

Do you think that belief is purely abstract? And why does it matter whether it is purely abstract or not?

No. Belief is what guides our actions for the best part. Beliefs are the basis of human societies.

All sorts of reasons. Perhaps a friend told them and they trust their friend.

Why do they trust their friend?
Do you think trust is something we also do without reason?

Perhaps the belief "feels right" to them.

The “belief feels right”?
That’s not a thing. Is it?

Perhaps the belief fits neatly into a web of their preconceptions, filling a belief-sized hole in their heart.

People believe all kinds of things they don't understand.

Like what?

 

[Trek]

I think they are hard for you, despite your protestations.

Whatever!

Either you're willing to follow a thread or you aren't. Do you have problems concentrating?

I'm pushed for time James.
I try to chat when I can.
Like now

Selectively ignoring that which you find uncomfortable. Avoiding giving honest and open answers to straightforward questions. That kind of thing. Behaviour.

I think the same way about Y’all
I asked simple questions to better clarify your positions, and not one of you has answered.

I reckon if you two blokes got together, the two of you would really hit it off. It's like you're on the same wavelength.

You may be correct.
Some of the stuff he writes regarding God, makes a lot of sense. But obviously you haven’t talked with a lot of Christians who pushes for theism towards discussions with atheists.
I think that is a better approach to talking about God, than triggering atheists with the bible.
Y’all start accusing of preaching, evangelising, and other stuff. But I will quote Jesus if it is relevant.

You're not a believer who is posting in this thread to prove that his God isn't just fiction?

I have responded.
There’s not much to respond to.
I’ve also put forward evidence for God.
Now I want some answers

That's not at all what the topic of this thread is, Trek. Perhaps you should start a new thread on your preferred topic.

The actual topic, once responded to, begs the question. As a theist I want to know what is being talked about.
Just because the word ‘God’ is thrown around doesn’t mean we are talking about God.
I want to know what you guys mean by God.
But if the questions are too hard to answer, as it definitely appears to be, then I get it.
You’re just guys beating off to your own God derangement syndrome.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Nope. If it makes you happy and a more functional member of society - believe whatever you want.

But what about the lies that make people LESS functional. KKK propaganda. Trump saying just about anything. Things like that?

 

[Trek]

And don't forget the spelling and avatars...
Two ii’s in “ no brainier” for Trek and Jan Ardena. My bold below.






And both having avatar pictures produced by sound vibrations:
View attachment 6242

I used that avatar to explain to one of you guys how things can instantly form by using sound vibration, as opposed to some ridiculously slow step by step process that occurred over a kazillion years. But it was so cool I decided to use it as my avatar.

Don’t you think it is cool how sound creates perfect geometrical shapes.
I hope you do.
And I hope you entertain the possibility that all anotomical structures could have been formed this way, instantaneously.
Not saying it is a scientific fact but it is possible , and very plausible imo

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Jellyfish.

 

[Pinball1970]

Nope. If it makes you happy and a more functional member of society - believe whatever you want.

You are not an atheist so are in the minority here BUT you have not projected, redirected so are therefore respected! (that was seriously off the cuff)

 

[Pinball1970]

Nope. If it makes you happy and a more functional member of society - believe whatever you want.

With my attempt at poetry out of the way....

Individuals without a doubt can be positive moral members of society, theist or not but Religion has quite a chequered history on that front and also today.

It is probably another thread but if we look at the impact of religion today in America in terms of the laws?
Islamic states?
African nations?

 

[foghorn]

I used that avatar to explain to one of you guys how things can instantly form by using sound vibration, as opposed to some ridiculously slow step by step process that occurred over a kazillion years. But it was so cool I decided to use it as my avatar.

Don’t you think it is cool how sound creates perfect geometrical shapes.
I hope you do.
And I hope you entertain the possibility that all anotomical structures could have been formed this way, instantaneously.
Not saying it is a scientific fact but it is possible , and very plausible imo

I provided examples of an intelligent agency, causing salt particles to take on various forms, due to the manipulation of sound vibration.
As an atheist you just saw particles self-organise. This is the reality of our respective positions.

Trek Just like Jan Ardena and ID.
It's a no brainier

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The particles had no volition and so did not "self-organize".

 

[Pinball1970]

Obviously I can’t provide proof.
You can’t provide proof of anything you claim either. Nobody can.
Hence the silliness of the thread.

Which is why at #515 I said " 516 posts and no evidence for god. We are not asking for conclusive proof, (now at least despite the title) just some evidence, a little bit, a datum, a hint or a wisp."

What you have provided in terms of evidence so far.

Unscientific nonsense about biology
I wiki link.

Congratulations on the worlds lamest argument, evidence or indication for a god.

By the way I did not claim anything what on earth are you talking? Cant you follow a thread for more than two posts?

 

[Trek]

We are not asking for conclusive proof, (now at least despite the title) just some evidence, a little bit, a datum, a hint or a wisp."

The thread asks for proof, and it is very dishonest of you to claim otherwise.
Secondly I have given you evidence for God.

Now explain to me your definition of God, what evidence would make you believe God is real.
And what is it about God that makes you sure there is no evidence that God is real.

I have no idea what any atheist on here means when they say there is no evidence for God

3 questions for you and your fellow atheists to answer.
Let’s see if you can actually engage in a conversation rather than dodge

 

[Trek]

What you have provided in terms of evidence so far.

I dropped a link which states evidences for God.
I accept those evidences for the purpose of this thread. So please respond instead of bullet-dancing all over the place

 

[Trek]

Unscientific nonsense about biology
I wiki link.

What was “unscientific”?
What part of that link did you fail to understand?

 

[Trek]

Congratulations on the world’s lamest argument, evidence or indication for a god.

How do you know it’s lame?
What is your definition of God, and why??

 

[gmilam]

So you still can't tell us what you believe in? How can I know if I believe or not if you can't tell me what it is you are talking about?

 

[Trek]

So you still can't tell us what you believe in? How can I know if I believe or not if you can't tell me what it is you are talking about?

I believe in God.
I thought that was obvious

 

[gmilam]

I believe in God.
I thought that was obvious

One friend tells me that god created the universe.
Another tells me that god IS the universe.
Another tells me that god is love and the universe is the physical manifestation of god's love.

So, the universe is love and it created itself? That doesn't make sense. I must be missing something.

Maybe you can explain it to me.