Arizona Immigration Law

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by madanthonywayne, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

    Hmm. I wonder where you grew up. I was born in Gary, IN and there you were white or black. We then moved to a nearby town as part of the "white flight" that occurred with the election of Mayor Hatcher.
    It should be.
    Well, the first part of that suspicion is realizing that the person was not born in the US. What constitutes the second part, I'm not sure.

    I think most problems with this law could be addressed by making it a secondary offense. Thus the police wouldn't hassle you about your immigration status unless they'd already stopped you for something else. Furthermore, they'd not hassle people who called them to report a crime or who were coming forward as witnesses in crimes.

    Hell, perhaps we should even reward illegals willing to come forward as witnesses by giving them citizenship.
    You have a point, but I guess I'm used to having to "show my papers" every time I get pulled over.

    Could a state institute, say, a million dollar fine for employing illegals (a million bucks per illegal on your payroll)? That might be a less fascist way of taking care of the illegal problem, if it were enforced. However, I still don't see why building a wall, as Israel has done, wouldn't help as well.
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  3. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Why does that not surprise me...

    It's some piece of evidence that raises a reasonable suspicion that the person in question did not immigrate legally. That you're having trouble imagining what that would be is the point: there is generally nothing that is going to provide such a reasonable suspicion. The fact that Arizona is determined to go forward with something like this, in the absence of any way to do it without racist discrimination, is exactly what's so objectionable (especially once you realize that Arizona authorities don't deserve any benefit of the doubt on things like this).

    That's essentially how it is already, and why the law is such a horrible idea.

    But you are not used to getting pulled over for no other reason than to check your papers, in the first place.

    Indeed, hammering people who employ illegals is the only effective way to end illegal immigration, other than simply allowing much higher levels of legal migration. The fact that nobody's interested in doing that, then, is revealing: the politicians behind this are doing it for political advantage, not to meaningfully address illegal immigration, and hammering American businesses does not advance that. So they pursue ineffective measures that make for good red meat for the nativist crowd, while leaving their buddies in the business community to do whatever they want.

    Moreover, it tells you something about how society really feels about illegal immigration. For all the indignant demands to "secure the border" and "deport the bums," nobody seems to want to stop employing them (which is the entire reason they come here in the first place). Which implies that they don't really want to end illegal immigration, they simply want to keep the illegals marginalized and excluded from mainstream society, so that they can be exploited for cheap labor and discarded.

    If you think that Israel's borders are comparable to those of the United States, well, that bridge I mentioned earlier is still for sale.

    I recommend you watch the episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit that deals with illegal immigration. In order to test the effectiveness of border walls, they hire a team of illegal day laborers to build a section of border fence to the same specs used by border control. Upon seeing the plans, one of the laborers says "Otra vez?" illustrating the obvious irony. Then once the wall is built, they split the laborers into 3 teams and have them compete to see who can breach the wall the quickest. One team is assigned to climb over, another to dig underneath, and another to break a hole and climb straight through. I forget which team was the fastest, but none of them took more than a few minutes to get past the wall.

    The point being that said walls only work if they are heavily militarized - the wall itself only slows people down. If you want to actually stop them, you have to use that time delay to detect them and deploy forces to apprehend them. Which is to say, it's an expensive proposition even on the very small scale attempted by Israel (or the Soviets, back in Cold War Berlin). To attempt the same thing along the US-Mexico border would present astronomical costs (and then there's the fact that we share maritime borders with Mexico to consider). At this point I'll repeat my frustration at someone who claims to favor of minimal government interference in the economy advocating a massively expensive, permanent militarization of huge portions of the country for the sole purposes of obstructing the free movement of labor.
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    That's what happens when you let the shit-for-brains government take over an important economic sector like charity. Their rules are so dogmatic and their employees are so unmotivated that it's absurdly easy to game the system. It's pretty difficult to cheat the Salvation Army. All the government's laws seem designed to train us to cheat: speed limits, income tax, zoning, business licenses, drugs...
    When did we become so selfish? The US-Mexican border represents the largest disparity in per-capita GDP between any two contiguous countries on earth. There are people down there who are literally hopeless. No roads, no jobs, no services, no future. Do you really want to just let them rot? The U.S. government has been supporting tyrannical Mexican administrations since the late 19th century, so a great deal of the misery of its people can be blamed on us. Look at NAFTA: it put thousands of corn farmers out of business, so the people who worked in their fields have to find a way to the corn farms in Iowa in order to support their families.

    This isn't an MMORPG. This is reality. These are real people who, with the assistance of our own government and our corporate leaders, are in such deep shit that you couldn't possibly imagine what their lives are like. And your "solution" is to put up a giant barricade so you don't have to see 'em? Real nice guy.
    I wish you Rednecks (regardless of your actual skin color) could be dumped in rural Mexico for a couple of years without your American IDs and credit cards. Watch your children starve and grow up with no hope of a better life. Then get a glimpse across the border into a country where the "poor people" all have cars and cellphones and their greatest nutritional problem is obesity. And then have some MinuteVermin tell you it's illegal to do the one thing you absolutely have to do in order to fulfill your obligation to your family: get to the other side of that border and start sending them money.

    Then we'll talk about the meaning of two words: "illegal" and "immoral."

    No. That was Wyoming.
    That's a shame. When I lived in Tucson in the 1950s the Anglos and Latinos fraternized pretty unremarkably. It was a racial paradise compared to Chicago, where I was born. There were people who discriminated against Afro-Americans, but it wasn't institutionalized. The schools were integrated. The only ethnic group that was really downtrodden was the Indians.
    There was an article about that in the Washington Post last Sunday. Statistically, illegal immigrants commit serious crimes at about 1/8 the rate of the rest of us.

    Remember: All of the 9/11 hijackers were in this country legally! It bugs the shit out of me that the Rednecks are concentrating their venom on the Latinos, when it's the Muslim immigrants from Africa and the Middle East who are a much bigger threat to the American way of life. They're the ones who send their children to schools in Virginia where they're taught that Christians and Jews are inferior. They're the ones who won't pick up people at the Minneapolis airport in their taxis if they have liquor in their luggage. They're the ones who drive past blind ladies in New York because their seeing-eye dogs are "unclean." They're the ones who blast prayer calls over the the downtown streets five times a day. They're the ones who demand the right to walk into a bank dressed like a ninja.

    And all of these people came over here with airline tickets and visas.
    The concept of "white people" and "black-colored-negro-whatever people" was in fact devised in the USA in the early 19th century. Before that, even slavery itself was not limited to Africans. People were not necessarily born into slavery, and there were plenty of ways to become free. As industrialization reduced the gap between the rich and the poor, the rich needed a way of keeping their plantations staffed, so they let the Euro-American poor feel superior to the Afro-American poor by defining skin color as a key difference. That never happened in Europe.
    Last time I was in L.A. I rode down an escalator in a gigantic shopping mall behind a caricatured hillbilly. He looked out over the sea of Indochinese, Indian, Arab and African immigrant faces, turned to me and said, "I hate to say it, but I guess we're gonna hafta let the Messicans be 'honorary white people'."
    Central and South America are just as big Melting Pots as North America. Just scan down the list of names of their countries' past and current presidents: Pinochet, Guzman, Kubitschek, Betancourt, Fujimori, D'Aubuisson.
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  7. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

    And you're no doubt aware (but others may not be) that efforts to stem the flow of illegals in some places have forced them to take dangerously long routes through the desert, increasing the numbers who die from dehydration and exposure.

    For those whose hearts aren't devoid of compassion, you might watch the excellent film El Norte. It's broken up because of YouTube's time limits, but it's all there. See if it changes your mind about this issue, or at least makes you soften your position.
  8. sly1 Heartless Registered Senior Member

    I bet the new law make illegals think twice about going there regardless of the work available.

    Also, there is work outside of working for employers. I would be curious to know exactly how much work is being done and contracted by other illegals/contractors. IE: landscaping, small construction, ROOFING which is HUGE as insurance pays out the ass for new roofs which most homeowners just go for the lowest price roofing company. Im sure alot of this money leaves the country back to support families still in mexico. which is part of this economic crisis. Unaccounted for money leaving the country.

    Ironic how US greed is inhibiting its ability to protect its borders and actively enforce immigration laws. lol Everyone loves cheap stuff but what you don't pay for initially you will pay for eventually.

    Im sure un-accounted for non tax paying illegals taking insurance money and underbidding legitimate businesses is helping the economic crisis right down the drain. tie that in with the expenses to enforce immigration law after the fact they are already here and you have a lose lose lose situation.

    In afterthought taking the border control a bit more seriously would have helped prevent alot of the current "huge issues" too late for any of that now.

    I work for a government funded forensic mental institution and I lost count of how many illegal’s have been filtering in and out. Mostly because they are suspects for crime but are ITP (incompetent to proceed) as they have no clue how US laws work. Ironic thing is that part of becoming competent for court proceedings is knowing your rights, which they shouldn’t have as they aren’t even American citizens. But for some unknown reason were putting these people thought our system as if they are here legally instead of just deporting them. BTW its roughtly 30k a year to house one person in the state of Colorado, which US citizens are paying for. That’s more than a good portion of the American working force even makes in a year! Something to think about.
    Unfortunately I hope this whole situation gets worse and worse as unfortunately that’s when things start to finally change and the lessons are learned.
  9. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Sure, blame the economic crises on poor Mexicans. How much will it cost to deport millions of people? To say nothing of the human cost. We will never have protected borders between Canada and Mexico, so we might as well get used to the situation.
  10. CheskiChips Banned Banned

    I live in Arizona and am in support of the law. Still I share the sentiment expressed by Fraggle Rocker. Unfortunately Mexicans don't belong in the United States and a minority of them cause a majority of the problems in Phoenix, they are the primary drug traffickers, sex trade, and other strange crimes which seem to be locally endemic to Northern Mexico. At the same time something which is metaphorically and actually representative of the US-Mexico relations...the US water policy has strangled the Colorado river and has left hundreds of farmers in Northern Mexico without water. They have literally strangled the life out of them and made much of the fertile land uninhabitable. Much of the Sonoran desert and its periphery grassland and thornscrub are practically a badlands for Mexicans...they will remain that way until they can be economically stable enough to build a lasting infrastructure. Subsidized American products in the region have made local growth and high-tech exports nearly impossible for Mexico, and even their agriculture is no match for the high-production genetically altered AND tax subsidized American product. All that considered; the Arizona citizen shouldn't have to feel the blunt of the trauma US Federal policies have had on Northern Mexico without a legal course of action.
  11. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    But that would also help to keep them out. When the dangers of being illegal outweights the advantages they stop coming...

    Most people don't realize, but bitching about the AZ law is like standing up for burglars' rights. Do you give special status or rights to people who break into your house? Of course not...
  12. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    >But you are not used to getting pulled over for no other reason than to check your papers, in the first place.

    Actually it happened to me back in 1996 or so. I was in New Mexico I think close to the border and suddenly all cars on the highway had to take an exit like a truck parking lot and everybody had to show passports or IDs...
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    The problem with that argument ....

    This is the United States of America. Equal protection under the law includes every person within the nation's jurisdiction.

    Do you give the burglar a job? Do you give burglars reasons to come to your house?

    If you want to discourage illegal immigration, you must also quash the incentives. Rather than destroying the Constitution to accommodate a bunch of racists, why not crack down on those who employ illegal immigrants? Start with fines at first, and then—since illegal immigration is apparently such a hideous problem—move up to prison sentences for those who employ illegal immigrants. Especially those who actively recruit workers overseas.

    Taking away the reasons so many people migrate illegally to the United States is within the law. Arbitrarily suspending the Constitution is not.


    Ludden, Jennifer. "Corruption Leads to Deep Debt for Guest Workers". All Things Considered. May 8, 2007. May 14, 2010.
    Last edited: May 16, 2010
  14. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    While I agree with the sentiment, as a practical matter I'm not sure what an employer could do to ensure they weren't hiring an illegal. If a guy shows up to apply for a job and shows me a driver's license and social security card, how am I supposed to know that the SS card actually belongs to his friend, or that the driver's license is a fake? Or, perhaps more to the point, how will you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I wasn't shown such documents when asked? Certainly if you can prove that an employer was acting in bad faith, then prosecute them. But I suspect that once such prosecutions start, the employers will simply get much more careful about covering their asses by creating some plausible deniability.
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    If Republicans and Tea Partiers are so for this law as they say, why are they not supporting Arizona by having their convention in Arizona? Are they afraid of something?
  16. sly1 Heartless Registered Senior Member

    Not blaming the entire economic crisis on them but they sure aren't helping and the economic problems right now are the culmination of a lot of different things no ONE thing alone caused this mess.

    As far as "getting used to the situation" its not possible to get used to open borders, unaccounted for money, and unaccounted for people in a country founded on being accountable for its people ie: democracy and money ie: capitalism

    So getting used to the situation would call for an overhaul of the U.S. constitution and the American "Way of life".
  17. Axiomatic Registered Member

    How exactly are they not helping? Please explain if you will, the negative impact immigrants have on the economy of the US.
  18. sly1 Heartless Registered Senior Member

    They are taking money from the us economy sending it home to mexico to take care of their families still there. So this unaccounted for money as they are not paying taxes on their income because they are here ILLEGALY is leaving the country.

    The other part is because they work for cheaper wages they are undercutting the LEGAL U.S. workforce and causing less business to be done domesticly.

    The illegals can do this because their cost of living is much much lower. Its similar to if someone went and worked in california for a year and sent their money to their family back in colorado. This is why alot of jobs require employees to be residents of that state. Jobs in California make more money because the cost of living is much higher.

    But since the illegals aren't technically living here in homes and participating in the larger portion of the US economy they can send most of their inflated cost of living earnings out of the country.

    Everyone always says well ya they will do the jobs most americans wont do. Well americans know what they should get payed to do them because they know what it costs to live here so if their are getting poor wages of course they wont do it. Illegals will because they can they dont pay taxes. ALL their earnings are theirs.

    Just like to add this isnt the case or scenario for ALL ILLEGALS just the ones that are hurting the economy. I'm sure there are some living and residing in the US Illegals which isnt helping either.
  19. sly1 Heartless Registered Senior Member

    Also to clarify legal "immigrants" are fine its the "illegal" unaccounted for masses of immagrants that are causing the problems.
  20. draqon Banned Banned

    why stop with that

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    have automatic laser vaporizers on every segment of the wall that shoots down anything that moves on neutral zone.

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  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Just to make it confusing ....

    While it's true we haven't been the closest of associates over the years, I'm curious as to when in the last seven and a half years I would have convinced you I wouldn't or don't make calculations about culpability to such a degree that what you're describing—an employer being defrauded—would somehow not be excepted the wrath of the law.

    Okay, look: If you have a farm with a hundred workers, and eighty of them are illegal, it's going to be hard to say you didn't know. If you have a sweatshop full of illegals being paid less than minimum wage to work excessive hours under extreme and willfully unsafe conditions, it's going to be hard to say you didn't know. If you went through a hiring agency that defrauds internationals into contracts that leave them stuck in the U.S. as illegals? Maybe you knew, maybe you didn't.

    But there are easy resources available for checking backgrounds if you have a driver's license and Social Security card. And, you know, if the fraud is strong enough to pass the scrutiny of the state, I think the employer deserves a basic benefit of doubt.

    There is a giant sucking sound to the south, or to the west, and it represents motion north and east. At least, that's how it works here on the Pacific coast. And, hey, if a Thai farmer can end up stuck in North Carolina, it might just be that way back east, too.

    Much of the immigration debate occurs in a context that focuses on people who just walk across the border. And this is part of a thematic context about the immigration that liberals disdain. Everything about illegal immigration is supposed to be the fault of any given alien. As long as we continue to approach the situation from this general perspective, we will fail to handle it appropriately.

    One of the first, most obvious issues to address would be the crooked schemes that bring so many people into this country. Compared to the employer who gets conned by an identity-theft scheme, I don't see why we would worry about that guy, except to build a more accessible and useful information infrastructure to help employers find the necessary information.
  22. Gypsi Registered Senior Member

    As this MSNBC article "Illegal immigrants filing taxes more than ever" explains, there is evidence that illegal immigrants do pay taxes.

    Illegal immigrants pay taxes one of two ways:

    1. Giving fake Social Security Numbers to employers

    2. Obtaining an Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN)

    Dreamt up in 1996, ITINs are issued on request by the IRS to "foreigners who don’t have Social Security numbers but need to file taxes." By 2007 (when the article was written) some 11 million ITINs had been issued.
    "The agency has no way to track how many were immigrants, but it’s widely believed most people using ITINs are in the United States illegally. "​

    In addition:
    "In 2004, the IRS got 7.9 million W-2s with names that didn’t match a Social Security Number. More than half were from California, Texas, Florida and Illinois, states with large immigrant populations, leading experts to believe they likely represent the wages of illegal immigrants."​

    So, not only are many if not most paying taxes, the system is fully set up to facilitate and indeed welcome this.

    As the article goes on to say:
    "It legitimizes the presence of immigrants who are here illegally, critics say, and sends a mixed message about the country’s interest in enforcing its own rules".​

    Who do they work for who? Who benefits from cheaper wages? Who, therefore is ultimately responsible for "undercutting the legal U.S. workforce"? Illegal immigrants or the American employers who hire them in preference to Americans?
    This is a moot point. As things stand, US employers have every incentive to hire illegal workers - or certainly far stronger incentives than disincentives - and so long as that continues to be the case, they're going to choose what's most profitable. In other words, as things stand, an American workers' ability or willingness to do certain jobs is ... irrelevant.

    Incidentally, it's easy and free for employers to verify SSNs, using the Dept of Homeland Security's e-Verify system.

    Oddly (or perhaps not) it seems only 200,000 employers have so far enrolled.
    Last edited: May 17, 2010
  23. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    I do kind of hope that the law remains in place for a while, just to see what impact it has on Arizona. I imagine illegal immigrants (especially the ones who are not otherwise prone to criminal activity) will start to choose other States to populate. The ones involved in criminal enterprises may well disproportionately remain, I suppose, depending on the nature of the illegal businesses in which they are involved.

    In theory, limiting the free flow of labor into the State, should make Arizonans less better off, and their prices for locally produced staples and low-cost goods and services rise, because of the contraction in the labor supply. That may be to a greater or lesser extent offset by decreases in public expenditures on illegals, but it will be interesting to watch that unfold.

    "Free" markets require both the free flow of capital and labor, or else they are not really free. It will be interesting to see whether this experiment in labor market regulation helps or hurts the State of Arizona.

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