Are the laws of physics based on magic?

[Seattle]

It was Carl Sagan who said, "Any technology sufficiently advanced looks like magic", or something like that. Anything unexplained could be thought of as magic. There are plenty of magicians who can pretend to do magic. But what about the laws of physics? The laws of physics, like the physics constants, do not have any known cause or reason to be what they are. Conservation laws seem intuitive enough with sayings like, "no free lunch", and "money doesn't grow on trees".

But science is in an awkward position. Scientists do not believe in magic. Yet the physics constants and the general framework of the laws of physics appear to work as if by magic. Maxwell's equations describe electromagnetic fields; we are told that E&M fields employ virtual photons to carry momentum where it needs to go. But there is something missing. Why should virtual photons obey Maxwell's equations at all?

Another example of the magical nature of physics is space-time geometry. Space-time geometry is this invisible thing that has the speed of light and other physics constants built into it. When it curves (whatever that really means) there are gravitational forces. Gravitons have never been detected, so space-time geometry also works as if by magic.

There are other examples. My point is that physics exists as if by magic. Is there any hope that science might beyond to weild this kind of magic in ways that can change the laws of physics or physics constants? Will there ever be any physics "upgrades" like that allow us to do things with energy that are not allowed by normal physics?

Photon's aren't "virtual" and they don't obey Maxwell's equation. Maxwell's equation models the photons, electrons, or whatever.

There is no evidence for going outside the laws of physics. More knowledge may help us learn more about those laws however.

Quantum physics gives us additional laws but it's still don't into the supernatural.

 

[Mazulu]

Photon's aren't "virtual" and they don't obey Maxwell's equation. Maxwell's equation models the photons, electrons, or whatever.

Electromagnetic fields rely upon virtual photons as momentum/energy carriers. Real photons are carriers of electromagnetic radiation.

There is no evidence for going outside the laws of physics. More knowledge may help us learn more about those laws however. Quantum physics gives us additional laws but it's still don't into the supernatural.

Cosmologists tell us that the big bang came from nothing, or that they don't know what caused the big bang. A supernatural cause is one hypothesis.

 

[paddoboy]

Electromagnetic fields rely upon virtual photons as momentum/energy carriers. Real photons are carriers of electromagnetic radiation.


Cosmologists tell us that the big bang came from nothing, or that they don't know what caused the big bang. A supernatural cause is one hypothesis.

Yes it is one hypothesis, but by its very definition, not a scientific one.

 

[Mazulu]

Yes it is one hypothesis, but by its very definition, not a scientific one.

Doesn't mean it's not true.

 

[Seattle]

Doesn't mean it's not true.

Nor does it imply that it is true since it can't be tested.

That's the problem with a belief rather than saying "we don't have the answer at the moment".

Believing is "knowing" something that one doesn't actually know.

The "Hulk" could be behind the Big Bang. It's silly but it "doesn't mean it's not true".

 

[Mazulu]

Nor does it imply that it is true since it can't be tested.

That's the problem with a belief rather than saying "we don't have the answer at the moment".

Believing is "knowing" something that one doesn't actually know.

The "Hulk" could be behind the Big Bang. It's silly but it "doesn't mean it's not true".

Science can't test it, but that doesn't mean it's not true. I don't see any problem with believing in religion, God, spirituality, paranormal, supernatural, ghosts, pyramids, or any of that fun stuff. Why do you think it's a problem?

 

[Seattle]

Science can't test it, but that doesn't mean it's not true. I don't see any problem with believing in religion, God, spirituality, paranormal, supernatural, ghosts, pyramids, or any of that fun stuff. Why do you think it's a problem?

In an individual (isolated) sense I don't care. That's not the reality however in many cases. It's a delusion. That behavior is considered a delusion in every area other than religion.

It's still delusional even when it's religion. It's just not (currently) considered mental illness only because so many people think that way.

If someone is a scientist and believes in Creationism or in a Young Earth then they can't effectively do any science. If they have that belief and are in politics they won't make the same decisions that they would otherwise make.

When someone is delusional in that sense (religious) it either makes them a phony (if they don't act on their beliefs) or it makes them do things they wouldn't otherwise do.

Why do we tell kids the truth after they are older regarding Santa Claus? Why is any other delusion considered a mental illness? Why is religion different?

If you see a door open in your house and you assume that it is just another ghost you aren't going to investigate to find out that your door hinge is broken or that there is a prowler in your neighborhood.

Why go through life feeling guilty at being a "sinner" or not liking other groups who have beliefs opposed to your own religious beliefs.

Why spend your time trying to bend scientific facts (reality) to fit in with what a supernatural being told you and what a man from 2,000 years ago wrote in a book. That's not really the best way to find out how the world works or to search for true.

Why not test what can be tested and if it's not true...accept it! Paranormal stuff can be tested. People who either profit from it or who truly believe in it don't want it tested. There is no question in that it wouldn't pass any rigorous test. Nor would divine intervention of prayers.

I have no problem with intelligent people who have doubt and just like the fellowship of the people in their church. I have no problem with doing works of good and all of the rest.

That's not what much of religion is about today. It's just a side effect. It could (and is) be (ing) accomplished without religion as well.

 

[Robittybob1]

.....


Why not test what can be tested and if it's not true...accept it! Paranormal stuff can be tested. People who either profit from it or who truly believe in it don't want it tested. There is no question in that it wouldn't pass any rigorous test. Nor would divine intervention of prayers.
....

I think you are very wrong about this. Have you done the tests yet? So why pre-empt the results?

 

[Seattle]

I think you are very wrong about this. Have you done the tests yet? So why pre-empt the results?

No such tests have ever been positive. There's even a guy who offers $1 million to anyone who can pass such a test and no one has ever passed.

There are universities (Duke for one) that have done some double blind tests in the paranormal. The results are always negative.

 

[Robittybob1]

No such tests have ever been positive. There's even a guy who offers $1 million to anyone who can pass such a test and no one has ever passed.

There are universities (Duke for one) that have done some double blind tests in the paranormal. The results are always negative.

As I have already said several times I went for that test (Randi) but they pissed around. I told them what happens to me but they wanted something else that doesn't happen to me. How fair is that. Then they published my efforts as a fail yet we never started.
They were just liars, a bit like you, looking for a million excuses, for they knew they were going to lose their money.

 

[Seattle]

As I have already said several times I went for that test (Randi) but they pissed around. I told them what happens to me but they wanted something else that doesn't happen to me. How fair is that. Then they published my efforts as a fail yet we never started.
They were just liars, a bit like you, looking for a million excuses, for they knew they were going to lose their money.

How am I a liar?

 

[Robittybob1]

How am I a liar?

They were the liars always looking for a million excuses. You also would put up a million different excuses. So "a bit like you, looking for a million excuses...", I am not saying you are a liar.

 

[Seattle]

They were the liars always looking for a million excuses. You also would put up a million different excuses. So "a bit like you, looking for a million excuses...", I am not saying you are a liar.

Do you really expect someone to give you $1 million for just saying I had a dream that came true? I've seen the type of evidence that they require and it isn't unreasonable (in my opinion).

It's just a standard double blind kind of test. It takes the test taker and test giver out of the equation so that all that is left is the actual phenomena being tested for and it needs to be repeatable and outside of what could be explained by chance (or placebo).

The fact of the matter though is that it's not just you that hasn't been able to pass that kind of test. No one has and yet if a phenomena did actually exist (outside of chance) it would easily be able to pass that kind of test.

It's done all the time for matters that aren't supernatural in nature.

 

[Robittybob1]

Do you really expect someone to give you $1 million for just saying I had a dream that came true? I've seen the type of evidence that they require and it isn't unreasonable (in my opinion).

It's just a standard double blind kind of test. It takes the test taker and test giver out of the equation so that all that is left is the actual phenomena being tested for and it needs to be repeatable and outside of what could be explained by chance (or placebo).

The fact of the matter though is that it's not just you that hasn't been able to pass that kind of test. No one has and yet if a phenomena did actually exist (outside of chance) it would easily be able to pass that kind of test.

It's done all the time for matters that aren't supernatural in nature.

I have premonitions so they have to devise a test that tests that.

I don't do the things they wanted in their tests. How come there is no test to verify a prophecy or premonition?

 

[Write4U]

Do you really expect someone to give you $1 million for just saying I had a dream that came true? I've seen the type of evidence that they require and it isn't unreasonable (in my opinion).

It's just a standard double blind kind of test. It takes the test taker and test giver out of the equation so that all that is left is the actual phenomena being tested for and it needs to be repeatable and outside of what could be explained by chance (or placebo).

The fact of the matter though is that it's not just you that hasn't been able to pass that kind of test. No one has and yet if a phenomena did actually exist (outside of chance) it would easily be able to pass that kind of test.

It's done all the time for matters that aren't supernatural in nature.

And once it has been reliably repeated by one or several persons, then is ceases to be supernatural and becomes part of human consciousness.
Why would science be opposed to discovering a human mental capacity for levitation of say, a sheet of paper? If one could demonstrate and repeat such a feat it might be considered an evolutionary leap in human mental capacity, but not supernatural.
By definition we cannot enter the supernatural.

 

[Robittybob1]

And once it has been reliably repeated by one or several persons, then is ceases to be supernatural and becomes part of human consciousness.
Why would science be opposed to discovering a human mental capacity for levitation of say, a sheet of paper. If one could demonstrate and repeat such a feat it might be considered an evolutionary leap in human mental capacity, but not supernatural.
By definition we cannot enter the supernatural.

Human consciousness will include being able to see into the future, and to see into the past as well? And this is an evolutionary development? Is it?

 

[Mazulu]

And once it has been reliably repeated by one or several persons, then is ceases to be supernatural and becomes part of human consciousness.
Why would science be opposed to discovering a human mental capacity for levitation of say, a sheet of paper? If one could demonstrate and repeat such a feat it might be considered an evolutionary leap in human mental capacity, but not supernatural.
By definition we cannot enter the supernatural.

Well argued. Indeed the supernatural is meant to be special. If there were psi-experts running around levitating stuff, it wouldn't be special, it would be like a bad B movie.

 

[Write4U]

Human consciousness will include being able to see into the future, and to see into the past as well? And this is an evolutionary development? Is it?

Are you saying that the human brain did not undergo an evolutionary process (mutation) and is the same now as it was in the mutated firstborn, who magically had a large sophisticated brain and physical skull structure to accommodate that brain. I don't think the evidence supports this assumption. Are we the same as the caveman using a flint knife to eat the heart of the deer in order to receive the deer's spirit?

No, I am keeping it simple. Make a drop of water suspend in the air, lift a feather, you know, the easy stuff. If one has access to the Implicate, then it should not be difficult to form an Implicate with 100% probability of becoming Explicate, IOW make it happen.

 

[Seattle]

I have premonitions so they have to devise a test that tests that.

I don't do the things they wanted in their tests. How come there is no test to verify a prophecy or premonition?

How about the next time you have a premonition that is on the national stage you post it here before it happens and with enough specificity to not resemble a horoscope or fortune cookie?

 

[Robittybob1]

How about the next time you have a premonition that is on the national stage you post it here before it happens and with enough specificity to not resemble a horoscope or fortune cookie?

And what would we do after that?

I'll do that, provided we do everything possible to prevent the dream coming true. I'm not going just to sit back and do nothing. Did you follow the "Early Edition series, they were great, and they always tried to turn the future around.
We will guess what would have happened had we done nothing.