An Alternative to Capitalism

spuriousmonkey said:
Look again at your own maps.
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Please defend your position, btw. Which system do you think maximizes benefits for everyone on the planet? If your american capitalism outsources slave jobs to China, increasing the gap between the chinese rich and poor, then your system do not work. In this system, you are simply exporting poverty. We are trying to create the best system for the whole planet, right?
 
You said:

Regulation always means bigger government. Bigger government always means more corruption. Try again.


I said look at the map.


Look at the scandinavian countries. Norway, Highest HDI. Big government. It doesn't show there, but high taxes, lots of government. Low corruption. Same for for instance Finland. Lots of government. Low corruption.
 
It's kinda ironic that I always argue the scandinavian system is the best, but their system is in the completely opposite side of what I would deem "utopian".... :rolleyes:

I guess I could also argue that Japan has a pretty good evenly distributed society, despite the fact they are capitalists...

So what does Japan and Scandinavia have in common? And why are they successful?
 
Sometimes it is difficult to compare corruption. For example corruption is a legal part of the US political system where it is called lobbying. This kind of lobbying would be considered illegal (hence would be corruption) in many western and northern European states.
 
TruthSeeker said:
So what does Japan and Scandinavia have in common? And why are they successful?
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They have a different moral system than for instance in the USA. It is based on society and not the individual.
 
No. My son is but we kidnapped him and brought him to the safety of a social market economy state.


It's rather easy to come up with alternatives to the current system of American based capitalism. Even ones that would work better.

The problem is of course that we cannot start from a blank slate. The current people in charge will not give away their power so we can have a better system for all.

That's what capitalism has been all about the last few decades/century. To increase the powerbase of a few. To channel the riches to a select few and increase the riches that are channeled to a select few, and make those select few even fewer. That's all there is to it. No magic. We don't really enter the equation as such, other than being the tool with which the select few enlarge their powerbase.

It's obvious to anyone who keeps his eyes open, but still nothing changes. That is because most people are completely and utterly powerless in this system of modern american based capitalism. The only times there have been changes has been through revolutions.

In Europe capitalism took a different course than in America to start with. But globalization killed that off in more recent times. The pressure has increased to adopt to the system of the USA.

Economic Growth uber alles! (above all we need economic growth)

And what is economic growth? More riches for the rich.

What is reality? The pair of pants I bought 3 years ago are just as good as the ones on sale now. Strangely enough the new ones are 5 Euro more expensive. Nothing in the product has changed. Nothing at all. It is still the same pair of pants made in the same factory/sweatshop. How can it be more expensive? Inflation. Inflation doesn't make the select few poorer. It does seem to affect the average person.

How realistic is to have a system that is based on economic growth? It's totally bogus. Economic growth can never be sustained in the long run. Economic growth is a tool to make a few people richer. It's not adding anything to the world.

If a country has on average an economic growth of 2% every year how can it be then that things get worse? What is the whole point of the system then? To make society better? Or to cater for a select few?
 
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spuriousmonkey said:
No. My son is but we kidnapped him and brought him to the safety of a social market economy state.
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Darn! I've been trying to find a wise american for a long time! :D

It's rather easy to come up with alternatives to the current system of American based capitalism. Even ones that would work better.

The problem is of course that we cannot start from a blank slate. The current people in charge will not give away their power so we can have a better system for all.

That's what capitalism has been all about the last few decades/century. To increase the powerbase of a few. To channel the riches to a select few and increase the riches that are channeled to a select few, and make those select few even fewer. That's all there is to it. No magic. We don't really enter the equation as such, other than being the tool with which the select few enlarge their powerbase.

It's obvious to anyone who keeps his eyes open, but still nothing changes. That is because most people are completely and utterly powerless in this system of modern american based capitalism. The only times there have been changes has been through revolutions.

In Europe capitalism took a different course than in America to start with. But globalization killed that off in more recent times. The pressure has increased to adopt to the system of the USA.

Economic Growth uber alles! (above all we need economic growth)

And what is economic growth? More riches for the rich.

What is reality? The pair of pants I bought 3 years ago are just as good as the ones on sale now. Strangely enough the new ones are 5 Euro more expensive. Nothing in the product has changed. Nothing at all. It is still the same pair of pants made in the same factory/sweatshop. How can it be more expensive? Inflation. Inflation doesn't make the select few poorer. It does seem to affect the average person.

How realistic is to have a system that is based on economic growth? It's totally bogus. Economic growth can never be sustained in the long run. Economic growth is a tool to make a few people richer. It's not adding anything to the world.

If a country has on average an economic growth of 2% every year how can it be then that things get worse? What is the whole point of the system then? To make society better? Or to cater for a select few?
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My feelings precisely. I remember going to economy class and questioning whether our measurements were the relevant measurements. I also questioned whether there is indeed scarcity. You can see the connection between the two, I'm sure.

First of all, national income is not a good measure because a few people have a lot of money and most people don't. So those few people skew the curve. If those few richer people get much richer and the rest get poorer, then you still have the illusion of growth. Outliers. I learnt them from statistics. The solution comes from the same source. We can create a per capita figure, or even divide the population into income brackets. That would give us a much better picture of the situation.

I'm particularly pleased with the Scandinavians. They are extremely rich and they are still always working for a better world. If the US was like Scandinavia, this world would be different. The opportunity cost of the US' military budget is just tragic......

As for scarcity- bullshit! They look at the poor and they say there is scarcity. I look at the rich and I say there is hypocrasy! That's what scarcity is. Yes, sure, there is a finite amount of resources in the world. And just a couple of centuries ago, you could go to the store many times to try to get something. But that wasn't scarcity. We just happened to not have the great distribution services we have right now. The only scarcity is the one caused by the rich. 5% of the world population holds more then 20% of the world's wealth. And 80% holds something like 5%. Those are simplified figures, but it paints the picture....

Sad sad sad....
*shake head*
 
Capitalism is like a project held together by duct tape and chewing gum- People tend to ignore the negative aspect and focus on the determination factor.
 
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TruthSeeker: You argue against capitalism, yet you also argue against government control and in favor of anarchy???

Capitalism is what happens when people are free to do what they want (economically speaking) without government interference; buying what they want, manufacturing and selling what they want, setting their own prices, and deciding for themselves what they are willing to pay for things. The only way to get away from capitalism is to have the government interfere with that.
 
ANARCHY... is by definition... the peaceful organization of the people, without a dictating gov't....

but this cannot be done... not so long as there is money in use.

if there is money... it simply become those with money, are in power.


only by giving up on all monetary systems, can any group of people successfully live in ANARCHY... like a jewish kabbutz... BUT without any rules.

-MT
 
But if you don't want capitolism, you have to have a government (or someone) placing restrictions on what people can and can't do. You can't have it both ways.
 
Restrictions are there because of lack of education and uneven wealth distribution. Laws are a consequence of the imperfect system. It's like a bandaid that controls the symptoms but do not treat the disease...
 
TruthSeeker said:
Restrictions are there because of lack of education and uneven wealth distribution. Laws are a consequence of the imperfect system. It's like a bandaid that controls the symptoms but do not treat the disease...
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Do you really think that people would stop wanting to amass wealth if they were educated and living in anarchy?
 
problem #1: an unchecked media that continually panders to those in power in order to gain subsidies.
problem #2: an unspoken "caste" system imposed on the western world in the last century (white/blue collar).
problem #3: the entire western world is operating on a fiat monetary system right now. inflation is a second form of taxation we all endure, so long as there is nothing tangible and undepletable backing the currency.


more to come...
 
The Devil Inside said:
problem #3: the entire western world is operating on a fiat monetary system right now. inflation is a second form of taxation we all endure, so long as there is nothing tangible and undepletable backing the currency.
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Inflation is about 3-4% annualy. It's pretty trivial compared to income tax.
 
inflation is the reason the euro is more valuable than the dollar. the purely capitalist system in america affects everything, and under it, the federal reserve could completely tank the dollar overnight..if they so choose.

all because of inflation. inflation is one of the most dangerous aspects of a currency system like the one in place right now.
 
Nasor said:
Do you really think that people would stop wanting to amass wealth if they were educated and living in anarchy?
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It's not that simple. The current education system only prepares people to work in the system. We need a system that teaches values and principles. Like a religion's morality, but without all the contradicting crap. Besides, who needs 1 billion dollars? People just need enough to have a decent life. Besides, more then half of the world would be happy enough if they had enough to survive- which they currently don't.
 
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