ALMA sees old galaxies before they merged. two ways to look back into the past?

[nebel]

here is the same situation in depicted in a different format, more reading required:

# 1 is timespace of the future that the universe expands into into. aka energytime.
#2 is the past timespace that the membrane sphere #3 has moved through from the BB # 4, an area, volume, that is now void of gravity, other fields and any information.
#3 is the zero thickness membrane that is thought of to contain all matter of the universe. ( zero thickness because it's zero dwell on its movement into the future).
#4 is the point in timespace of the BB big beginning, now empty.
#5 is showing the observer's location (Hubble telescope in this case of deep space viewing)
#6 is the location of the MAC1 oldest, far star seen so far, so far away in time (2/3 to the horizon #9, which is allowing us to see only back to the BB cbmr).
#7 is the exit point in the past, timespace, where the image of the far star that Hubble captured, originated, on the then smaller universe #8.
#8 is the size in time of the universe when the light that Hubble received from MAC1 was emitted.
#9 is our horizon from our current position in the universe, with a radius of ~13 BLYs along the membrane surface. (the rim of the umbrella)
#10 is the possible position of the farthest star, ~ 40 BLYs away, halfway around the universe / membrane sphere. > 2 horizons away.
#11 is a correction point accounting for the curvature of the membranes surface vs circumference. (also for 3/3.14 hex vs circle)
#12 is the position of an astronomer elsewhere in the universe, that also could see that far star, but from the other side. lucky lady!
#0 is the shortest path that the photons took from the small beginning in early universe #8 at point #7 to the observation point at our hubble detector at # 5. ( track could have been longer because of proper motion). Far star's images' light came from point #7, but was seen as coming from #6, along the membrane #3, the direction #6 in the current position of the far star.
refutations, falsification attempts invited. tempting you.

 

[nebel]

Gist of a conversation with a viewer:

1 the level of zero gravity at infinity
2 areas traced by the depressing ball , showing depth, strength of spacetime warp
3hollow spherical mass
4 interior g gradient
6 areas where 0 g occurs

so, with such a deep gravity well #2 here in figure c, and (not shown) at the outside surface of the membrane universe #3 of the post #680 above, why is it not raining stuff down on us from the future? well, maybe it is, not stuff , but "pipe".
there must be a difference to the nature of the timespace and energytime and pipe (possible infinite primordial energy) that existed in the volume #1 before the BB and now.
Why are all those 3 designated as infinite? because
The question of origin keeps repeating on and on, and time, energy should be considered infinity, fundamental and we should be done with it. so:
there must have been Time in #1, Energy in #1, to start the BB at point #4 . So, let us call it energytime and timespace.clearly No. #1
When/as we move into the future it will be interesting.

 

[nebel]

is the Universe the discharge from a Big White hole ?

well if it is, as also Dirac with his Dirac Hole formulated, then there must have been black or white energy existing in energytime before the BB, and energy (you have it here in Black and White) needs time timespace to exist in. so
The Universe is propagating through time into the future as the ESM model shows. or?

 

[nebel]

BB? You have not taken that out of the equations.

This thread was supposed to be about falsification about flight of fancy forgoing formulae, aka equations. so BB taken out? not by nebel, look at #4 above post # 681.
True, a geometry point has zero size, but The BB point in time is the most important to us. and because we have energy this side of the BB, energy not being destroyed, it must have been there before the BB. That is why
The full ESM model sees timespace and energytime before the BB, and spacetime and mattertime on our side after. Matter Moving into the future time. So,possibly
Time, Energy and even Space are infinite in some form; the BB is the switchover of inserting matter (a form of energy) into space at that Big Bold time, the BB, Matter that now moves continuously through time into the future.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

True, a geometry point has zero size, but The BB point in time is the most important to us. and because we have energy this side of the BB, energy not being destroyed, it must have been there before the BB. That is why
The full ESM model sees timespace and energytime before the BB, and spacetime and mattertime on our side after. Matter Moving into the future time. So,possibly
Time, Energy and even Space are infinite in some form; the BB is the switchover of inserting matter (a form of energy) into space at that Big Bold time, the BB, Matter that now moves continuously through time into the future.

i have just started re-watching a short privately made doco on Gravitational fields and universal eletromegnatism etc(not sure of the proper name for it all aside from quantum mechanics & wave-field particle theory etc yadda whatevers)

anywho...
as i pushed my infantile mind to the side your comment Re geometry having a 0 point... seems to be demonstrated in this documentary.
though... as i noted somewhere in another thread. is that a true zero point when you have opposing EM fields that produce it (?)

 

[nebel]

is that a true zero point when you have opposing EM fields that produce it

I was referring to the idea, that this model of an expanding universe is a purely geometric construct. and even the sphere expanding as a membrane is thought of to have zero thickness. This to reflect the idea, that a moment in time has zero length too, in our movement through it.
With time and energy considered infinite in the model, one would not worry about having halfs of it pulling in opposite direction at any given point, there is no half infinity.
Figure #d in # 682 above shows the field situation though, that prevails once matter starts moving out of the BB singularity. Now we have a past time, a volume that the universe has passed through, and where it is no more. (Luckily only in that time). In the line #6, or the volume #2, the interior of the membrane,( post# 681), are no gravity or other acting forces, as there would not be in a Gauss - or Faraday cage. In other words: The past is unaffected by activity in the universe. (rewriting of history notwithstanding).
I got embroiled in a controversy * whether that 0 potential in such a cage results from true absence, cancellation of the opposing fields or whether each of the fields is still present there, thus doubling the relativistic effects.-- Interesting, but irrelevant to the model,where
There is no activity in the past. the universe has passed through that time, those points in timespace.
* see post below, courtesy of dave

 

[nebel]

To be clear, the tensions are not literally cancelling out by destructively interfering with each other - as in your wave energy analogy.
They simply result in a net force of zero. The gravity is still there, pulling every atom in all directions at once. ///Dave's quote finished here.

nebel's reply, now. from here on:
In the model, either way, the past has no force. In a cavity of the time dependant model universe, with interior walls ~ 27 billion light years apart, would opposition really matter in such a house? With all matter confined to the membrane, and moving away, only all effects of past actions, and their fossil radiation, light messages are still circulating in the membrane #3.

 

[nebel]

Since science seems to be going with energy in existence before the Big Bang producing particles popping in and out of existence it would appear to me the potential would be there to measures the intervals between one pop in and another.

Since science seems to be going with the fact that energy is indestructible, only convertible, energy must be fundamental, of infinite duration. Duration is time, even if it has no beginning, so:
Can that duration be called energytime?
If there were particles virtually popping in and out of existence during that pre-BB energy-loaded time, they must have had a place to do that in, so :
Can we call that area, or era, timespace?
Then, we could have a whole universe pop or bang into existence in a small point (singularity) in energy time space. without violating any known laws.
From that point on, matter (in a smatter), has expanded outward in all directions, creating an expanding sphere. To prove it, we are here. but:
since neither infinite time nor infinite energy have been exhausted in that pop/bang. It is still there around that sphere.
The sphere aka universe is expanding into timespace and energytime. it's working, its fine.
energytimespace. now containing matter, which is expanding into it.

 

[nebel]

The sphere aka universe is expanding into timespace and energytime. it's working, its fine.
energytimespace. now containing matter, which is expanding into it.

The model implies that timespace (different than spacetime) is infinite, by extension so is it's energy content. Only at the BB point in timespace and now spacetime, did some of the energy convert to matter.
Virgin Matter, That was THE novelty then at the Big Beginning.-- Matter with laws, and adding 3 local dimensions to the infinite indestructible dimension* of timespace.
In the model. all matter confined in the expanding sphere, moving out into timespace, is possibly absorbing what is still in store in the future area of infinite, indestructible pristine energytime.

 

[nebel]

DaveC426913Valued Senior Member
Messages:
8,156
↑(copied for relevance from another thread)
Nebel:Since science seems to be going with the fact that energy is indestructible, only convertible, energy must be fundamental, of infinite duration.

Dave C 426913 said:Energy is an accounting system.
This much, in the form of electromagnetically radiating photons,
can be converted to
That much, in the form of momentum of a moving mass (kinetic energy)
can be converted to
that much gravitational potential of a mass in a gravity well (potential energy).
Notice, energy is always the property of something. It does not stand on its own.
Compare to a dollar paper note can be converted to 100 pennies.

The accounting book and exchange rate is the energy, not the coins or notes. [end of quote]

In the model, energytime is not thought of to contain energy that is the property of something like Michael 345's popping in and out of virtual particles.
Nor is the infinite ur-energy thought of as an accounting scheme only, but real, substantial, converting into real Virgin matter, totally, not just in small portions as we do in our reverse matter -to -energy atomic conversions.
Total conversion does not mean all infinite energytime is gone, infinities do not exhaust, disappear.
Infinite Energytime and Timespace still exist, and surround the expanding universe/membrane.

 

[nebel]

Reporting. working on photogenic model for the Expanding Sphere Membrane timed universe, used a coconut, cut* into the 4 local horizon segments (553, 554 page 28),-- drank and ate the interior, baked into cookies. relished the past, interior so to speak therfore:
we should relish the present, the available past, because it ends up empty, like time left behind, like the interior of the sphere, like it or not! *(one nut cutting the other)

If you believe that time, energy, space, mass, the laws all started 13.8 billion years ago out of nothing, that is fine, but you have a lot explaining to do.

The ESM model on the other hand asserts that they (except the mass and laws) are in some form fundamental, infinite in non-origin and duration, so we do not have to wrestle with the unthinkable that is over the horizon of our comprehension anyway. But
If anything preceded our Big Beginning that way, it is still out there, as we move in the directions that the expansion started out in,-- from that point in time, moving into the future.
Timespace and energytime from eternity to the here,( the BB), and from the BB through the same conditions toward eternity.
Bon voyage, (see as you age).

 

[nebel]

Since this here is a looking into the past thread too, moved this over . It is about only seeing the past emitted radiation, like looking along the membrane #3 showing how democratic the ESM model is. Even the radiation travels into the future
"seeing their past"--Nebel: "Which really stokes one's ego, because it makes you the most advanced individual in time (from your perspective) everyone else sends you their message into the future, where you graciously accept them, coming as it were, from those you could think, are lagging behind, trailing you the in past.
In reality though, one is really flying blind, because reality has already happened ahead of us. glad that c is so high. but
the ALMA thread in alternative theories makes it all democratic, because everyone travels into the future together, confined in the expanding sphere; we never seeing the concrete past which is gone. empty. but
Seeing the messages that travels along with us into the future.
PS.:Which brings us to the spiral below. seeing the past is seeing along a spiral path, not a straight line. 3D, but curved into time. the first dimension.
http://www.sciforums.com/data/attachments/1/1802-7e4a2940946065af6fc21864e9317722.jpg
does not link original is on page 31, post #605.
PS: below is the image, spiral path generated by proper motion of the emitter.

 

[nebel]

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here is the image of a possible message (world line) traveling from a smaller younger universe to us now. (movement exaggerated). spiral path generated by proper motion.
It answers the question too, about the discrepancy between straight line O in post #681 above, anything leaving us more than 30 degrees away from the BB point could never be seen,

 

[Write4U]

Even the radiation travels into the future

From it's NOW, but if the radiation is received by us in that future, then it's origin would be in our past.

 

[nebel]

From it's NOW, but if the radiation is received by us in that future, then it's origin would be in our past.

absolutely, let's say we are in the expanding membrane, and in our now moment, a distant emitter sends a signal to us along the membrane. As the universe expands into the future time, that photon, or soundwave travels to us inside that membrane to hit us at a later time. (when the membrane has expanded). So the message left earlier than the reception, the past. therefore:
By virtue of the expansion through time, all messages are transported into the future, and can only be received as coming from the past. There is never any confusion, the emitters ,the message and the receiver all are always moving together outward into the future.
This movement component through time is expressed to be at a right angle to their proper motion, in the radial direction from the BB , making it's path out of the past a slope, a curve as in the illustrations above. thank you.
The ESM model works. energytime and timespace could exist in infinity. 3/4 of the universe could have expanded beyond our horizon.

 

[nebel]

Carried over and amended from Write4U query: Indeed, there is no information at all that is received from the present, or the future. The very act of receiving presupposes a prior(past) emitter, admit it. but
If the event (#7)happened in the past, a smaller universe(#8), that is was not in the future of humankind, but its past, or rather , prior to its past, prior to humankind's beginning.
It is the news, the photon picture (#0) about the event that has travelled through time and the expanding Universe / membrane to reach us in the now.(#5)
The past itself is nonexistent. There is no image of the event still lingering there for millions of years, waiting for us to appear, evolve and then to focus on and see it.
Of the event, all we have is a fossil to look at. That fossil is not a stone impression, but a series of arranged photons.(#0)
It sounds silly, but all we see is fossils. traces, leftovers in the membrane.

 

[Write4U]

Carried over and amended from Write4U query: Indeed, there is no information at all that is received from the present, or the future. The very act of receiving presupposes a prior(past) emitter, admit it. but
If the event (#7)happened in the past, a smaller universe(#8), that is was not in the future of humankind, but its past, or rather , prior to its past, prior to humankind's beginning.
It is the news, the photon picture (#0) about the event that has travelled through time and the expanding Universe / membrane to reach us in the now.(#5)
The past itself is nonexistent. There is no image of the event still lingering there for millions of years, waiting for us to appear, evolve and then to focus on and see it.
Of the event, all we have is a fossil to look at. That fossil is not a stone impression, but a series of arranged photons.(#0)
It sounds silly, but all we see is fossils. traces, leftovers in the membrane.

It's all from from the point of the observer. They reconstruct entire skeletons from a few bones. Although the creatures clearly existed before humans, they now exist in our past. They're extinct, we're not.......
It's just a relative interpretation.

 

[nebel]

It's all from from the point of the observer. They reconstruct entire skeletons from a few bones.

Yes, and we reconstruct whole colliding galaxies from a few photons, stretched waves , as the OP about ALMA pointed out. That is why I called the light we received in ALMA : fossils, not the "bones", real original stuff, but only messages on another medium, not rocks, but the radiation we receive from the past, always inside the membrane. The past#2 is not a boneyard, but truly empty.
Yes, for us, the observer, the means the universe has to know itself in our neighbourhood, is the important POV.
From our Point of View #5 we can collect information via incoming light from up to 13 billion years ago, the radius #9, We should not unduly worry about the astronomers at point #12 in the universe, that could see the farthest stars from us, @#10, ~ 40 billion light years away, the way a crow, or light, flies; always inside the membrane.
The thing of interest is the area #1, the one we are bound to move into. The Future. Era#1, energytime and timespace that was the arena that produced the Big Beginning, and still has the potential of a repeat performance, or different energy intensive events, or slowly leaking content into the membrane.
As we move into more time, we might run into such event, or fossils of it.(speculating on potential only)
If it did not come from the past, as all fossilized messages now do, but directly from the future, that would be awesome, from our POV.

 

[nebel]

not commenting correctly on the details:
From NATURE magazine: trending book review:
The Order of Time Carlo Rovelli Allen Lane (2018)

According to theoretical physicist Carlo Rovelli," time is an illusion: our naive perception--."
The author seems to be dealing with time emerging from the smallest actions, quantum, Plank level, which frankly beyond me, so:

Here we are going at it Bigtime, reaching down deep, 13.8 billion years, flat out to infinity, which after all exists, just look at all the bothersome lazy 8s in serious equations, right? -- or?

 

[nebel]

Some of the books, like the one above, treat time as something emerging, temporary, linked to our experience and perception, understanding. But the ALMA images showed, that even photons carry on through deep time, spacetime. for eample
To see, as in the ESM model, that there should be ALMA - like images that have travelled at least 2,-3 times longer than the merging galaxies of the OP.
It is natural to be pragmatic and limit our search to what we can see; The model implies though that the pre BB condition, the arena in which that spectacular mass event happened in a point in time, is still out there and always accessible and closer than the past, which is now empty and done with.