A Challenge to Genep

[genep]

Genep:

And what is so bad about Maya? Why not create karma?

You are right: I LOVE Karma it is pure entertainment for me but only because I don’t give a damn.

As long as you believe what your mind thinks it thinks you are on a wild goose chase it is leading you on. The same wild goose chase it leads you on each night when you think you are awake in your dreams.

Until you try and control just ONE thought you have no idea of what the mind is... and what it can and cannot do. It cannot do anything because it is nothing but thoughts.
But you have to try and control JUST ONE thought to wake up to the fact that the mind cannot work.
For over 5 years I have tried to use meditation to control just one thought -- the more I tried the more futile it got.

I can say with the utmost certainty that it would be easier for me to run after light and catch it than it would be to control just one thought. The Supreme Comedy is the thought: I can control a thought.

When I finally gave up trying to control thoughts it was laughter and JOY.
When thoughts slow down in meditation there are three reasons you/I cannot control thoughts.
1: Thoughts are totally unpredictable.
2: Even if they were predictable I can never observe thoughts. I cannot observe thoughts because I, this mind, is the thoughts that it is trying to observe. This IS ONLY OBVIOUS WHEN THE MIND SLOWS DOWN with meditation. And then it is so obvious that it is cause for laughter: YOU CANNOT control thoughts because you cannot even OBSERVE THEM because the MIND IS THEM.
3: there is Universe-vanishing gap (physics’ quantum-gap) between thoughts that with time becomes so overpowering with BLISS that it makes thoughts relatively meaningless, nothing, fiction.

So forget about all your ego’s degrees and just try and control ONE thought.
ONLY then will you know the meaning of two words: futility and fiction – the mind.
Until then you are just a wild-goose chase your ego needs to entertain me.

 

[Prince_James]

Genep:

You are right: I LOVE Karma it is pure entertainment for me but only because I don’t give a damn.

Great.

As long as you believe what your mind thinks it thinks you are on a wild goose chase it is leading you on. The same wild goose chase it leads you on each night when you think you are awake in your dreams.

Then present the evidence of the mind not thinking? I await it so I might be enlightened.

Until you try and control just ONE thought you have no idea of what the mind is... and what it can and cannot do. It cannot do anything because it is nothing but thoughts.

Yet thoughts provoke action. I think and then I implement such thoughts in actions. Sometimes the correlation is almost simulteneous, with thought preceding, say, speech, a second before hand at most. Moreover, what is it about thoughts that are unsubstantial to you?

Also, I can control quite a great deal of thoughts.

But you have to try and control JUST ONE thought to wake up to the fact that the mind cannot work.

Mind seems to work utterly fine.

For over 5 years I have tried to use meditation to control just one thought -- the more I tried the more futile it got.

This may speak more against the merits of meditation than anything else. Consider contemplation.

I can say with the utmost certainty that it would be easier for me to run after light and catch it than it would be to control just one thought. The Supreme Comedy is the thought: I can control a thought.

A comedy for you, mayhaps, but a truthful reality for the rest of us.

When I finally gave up trying to control thoughts it was laughter and JOY.
When thoughts slow down in meditation there are three reasons you/I cannot control thoughts.

I await these eagerly.

1: Thoughts are totally unpredictable.

Yet I just thought of dog. Woops, just thought of cat. Just thought of Chinese. Just thought of green. Just thought of my first room. Unpredictable? No. I conjured said images to mind.

2: Even if they were predictable I can never observe thoughts. I cannot observe thoughts because I, this mind, is the thoughts that it is trying to observe. This IS ONLY OBVIOUS WHEN THE MIND SLOWS DOWN with meditation. And then it is so obvious that it is cause for laughter: YOU CANNOT control thoughts because you cannot even OBSERVE THEM because the MIND IS THEM.

The mind is not simply thoughts. See "What is Consciousness" thread for our findings. Moreover, I can observe my thoughts quite well. I am observing them right now, quickly racing across my mind in all their splendid genius, racing along the highways of information crammed with data being processed constantly in a swift moving stream. It's gorgeous, really. You ought to consider it.

3: there is Universe-vanishing gap (physics’ quantum-gap) between thoughts that with time becomes so overpowering with BLISS that it makes thoughts relatively meaningless, nothing, fiction.

You just said thoughts are basically insubtantial. Where is the quantum gap betwixt insubstantial things? Moreover, again, what -quantum gap- do you speak of? You have not clarified. Also, I'd be careful with "bliss". It is probably you self-doping on your own dopamine. Most ecstastic experiences are reducible to that, including physical ecstasy through sex and love and such.

So forget about all your ego’s degrees and just try and control ONE thought.
ONLY then will you know the meaning of two words: futility and fiction – the mind.

I do not control only one thought, I control every thought.

 

[spidergoat]

I control every thought.

Do you beat your heart then too?

 

[Clockwood]

Don Quixote?

Ah, Don Quixote. The tired old man who rejected the universe as it is in favor of what it should be. He did immense amounts of damage but, in his own mind, he was a hero that could make a difference. His delusion was a beautyful one.

 

[Prince_James]

spidergoat:

Do you beat your heart then too?

Last I checked, I do believe heart beats are regulated simply through electric impulses in the nervous system, as well as partially the cells in the heart itself. Although, that being said, I have controlled the rate of my heart beat before and have been trying to learn how to slow my heart to a near stop. Of course, I don't want to kill myself in the process.

Clockwood:

Ah, Don Quixote. The tired old man who rejected the universe as it is in favor of what it should be. He did immense amounts of damage but, in his own mind, he was a hero that could make a difference. His delusion was a beautyful one.

To a certain extent, yes.

 

[c7ityi_]

Do you beat your heart then too?

yes, but unconsciously. it is possible to learn to control it consciously, like some indian yogis or whatever. but it's dangerous and often unnecessary, so it was disabled and put to automatic mode by the creator.

 

[genep]

Genep:



I do not control only one thought, I control every thought.

Egos are egos because they think they control the thoughts that they are.
And my dear Prince your ego makes you far more than just a "prince."

You, my dearest "King James," you control your thoughts exactly the same way a word in a book controls all the other words.

The Supreme Comedy (the mind/ego) is that thoughts/words cannot control thoughts/words, not even if they belong to a prince or even a king.


My dearest KING JAMES. I, this mind and its body, is no more real than is Mickey Mouse on TV.

I accept this with such utter certainty and JOY that to me life and death, disease and health, mean nothing to me.
If it was important for Mickey Mouse that I die then I would gladly die for Mickey because for me death means nothing.
Until you can accept that this mind and its body, called I , is nothing but fiction we have nothing to share.

If you can accept what I Accept – that this mind and its body is pure fiction, like Mickey -- then we might have something to laugh about.

As long as you keep asking me questions, instead of Mickey Mouse, it is only because you cannot accept that I, this mind and body, is pure fiction. And if you cannot accept that I am pure fiction then all we can do is shovel the shit your ego needs to expand just as fast as the universe keeps expanding – at or even perhaps beyond the speed of light.

=-=

Duality is a thought, fiction, the mind.
Knowledge thus has to be the façade of ignorance.
And good has to be façade of evil.
Just like physics tells us: the observer determines the observations.
So too: the mind is what it thinks it thinks.

If the mind seeks knowledge it will find all the formulas, theories and numbers called knowledge.
If , on the other hand, the mind seeks ignorance it will sooner or later have to realize that there are no limits to/of ignorance because egos have all sorts of theories, formulas and numbers that prove that it is knowledge.

Once the mind Accepts that -- other than Reality -- everything is Reality’s nothing, fiction, thoughts, then life and death, pleasure and pain, knowledge and ignorance are all just thoughts, words. The mind might think that they are different but it is all in the mind, the mind.

And when a mind somehow ACCEPTS that wisdom is just the façade of ignorance (like Socrates did) then the ego vanishes to allow Reality to shine as a JOY, Bliss, ("Kundalini") that is Untouchable, Complete and Content.

and this is the Supreme Truth/Supreme Comedy because there is no other, not even an ego.

 

[spidergoat]

That's right. The mind is nothing more than thought. The frame of reference we call a person is just a temporary relationship between atoms, and the frame could just as legitimately be placed around a family, society, culture, all life, or everything, so it's essentially meaningless.

 

[Prince_James]

Genep:

Egos are egos because they think they control the thoughts that they are.
And my dear Prince your ego makes you far more than just a "prince."

Yes? May I become a God, then? 'Tis my aspiration.

You, my dearest "King James," you control your thoughts exactly the same way a word in a book controls all the other words.

Which way would this be? By being part of the greater context? Or having been written by a conscious being?

The Supreme Comedy (the mind/ego) is that thoughts/words cannot control thoughts/words, not even if they belong to a prince or even a king.

What part of them is so incapable?

My dearest KING JAMES. I, this mind and its body, is no more real than is Mickey Mouse on TV.

Oh? I am speaking to what then? A figment of my imagination?

I accept this with such utter certainty and JOY that to me life and death, disease and health, mean nothing to me.
If it was important for Mickey Mouse that I die then I would gladly die for Mickey because for me death means nothing.
Until you can accept that this mind and its body, called I , is nothing but fiction we have nothing to share.

I will accept anything I know to be true, no matter how horrible, or how outlandish, so long that it is true. If you can lead me to this truth - if it is truth - we may enjoy the "supreme comedy" together. But until then, I'm afraid I shan't affirm the same things, being incapable of asserting that which is not true.

If you can accept what I Accept – that this mind and its body is pure fiction, like Mickey -- then we might have something to laugh about.

Show me it's fictional nature and I shall laugh far more uproariously than you.

As long as you keep asking me questions, instead of Mickey Mouse, it is only because you cannot accept that I, this mind and body, is pure fiction. And if you cannot accept that I am pure fiction then all we can do is shovel the shit your ego needs to expand just as fast as the universe keeps expanding – at or even perhaps beyond the speed of light.

And why should not the ego expand?

Duality is a thought, fiction, the mind.
Knowledge thus has to be the façade of ignorance.
And good has to be façade of evil.
Just like physics tells us: the observer determines the observations.
So too: the mind is what it thinks it thinks.

Since you delight in poetry, I shall respond in kind:

Empty words
Disturb neither animals nor birds
For should knowledge be so empty and without meaning
Why can you know such whilst beaming
Happy and content in your delusion
Thinking this is nothing but an illusion?

Or to put it plainly:

You claim knowledge is the facade of ignorance, yet affirm that you know that all is fiction. I spot a contradiction, methinks!

Also, if you might, present your evidence that duality is simply fiction? And once again, what is an observer, pray tell?

If the mind seeks knowledge it will find all the formulas, theories and numbers called knowledge.
If , on the other hand, the mind seeks ignorance it will sooner or later have to realize that there are no limits to/of ignorance because egos have all sorts of theories, formulas and numbers that prove that it is knowledge.

If such is true proof, how are they in error? Also, to "seek ignorance" is a contradiction of terms. To know one is ignorant is to not be ignorant.

Once the mind Accepts that -- other than Reality -- everything is Reality’s nothing, fiction, thoughts, then life and death, pleasure and pain, knowledge and ignorance are all just thoughts, words. The mind might think that they are different but it is all in the mind, the mind.

And what makes the mind unreal? And what is "Reality"?

And when a mind somehow ACCEPTS that wisdom is just the façade of ignorance (like Socrates did) then the ego vanishes to allow Reality to shine as a JOY, Bliss, ("Kundalini") that is Untouchable, Complete and Content.

Again: Have you ever read a Platonic dialogue? Truly, have you? I shall not mock you simply because you have not, but I do affirm that you know not what Socrates taught whatsoever.

spidergoat:

That's right. The mind is nothing more than thought. The frame of reference we call a person is just a temporary relationship between atoms, and the frame could just as legitimately be placed around a family, society, culture, all life, or everything, so it's essentially meaningless.

If the mind is a thought, then it exists as a thought, so be it. Thought and mind would then be inseperable, but it would still necessitate a thinker and it would, by the way, validate the mind (as you just gave it existence as a thought). Moreover, though this person may be a temporary relationship betwixt atoms, what makes this "meaningless"? Do you ascribe a bridge as "meaningless" because it is a "temporary connection of atoms"?

 

[genep]

Genep:

Again: Have you ever read a Platonic dialogue? Truly, have you? I shall not mock you simply because you have not, but I do affirm that you know not what Socrates taught whatsoever.

....of atoms"?

As far as Socrates is concerned he never wrote anything. So tell me, what great works of his have you translated to thus know in perfect detail?

As long as you cannot accept that I am pure fiction then all you/we can do is shovel the shit your ego needs to expand just as fast as the universe keeps expanding – at or even perhaps beyond the speed of light.

UNTIL YOU CAN ACCEPT what I Accept and laugh at: that I am nothing but a thought, fiction... until then there is nothing to talk about except YOUR SHIT.

Since I AM nothing but a thought – I cannot have wisdom any more than I can have ignorance, truth or lies… these are all thoughts you call your mind, that comes across as the ego of a 1340 manic/ king.

I have no problem accepting that your ego makes you a king. But until YOU CAN ACCEPT that I AM nothing but a thought, fiction, you will not Realize that all your words can do is shovel your intellectual shit just to boost your ego.

 

[Prince_James]

Genep:

As far as Socrates is concerned he never wrote anything. So tell me, what great works of his have you translated to thus know in perfect detail?

I am well aware that Socrates wrote nothing, but Plato did. Plato, though imposing upon Socrates' philosophy a bit, is attested to by Aristotle - who also knew Socrates - to have represented Socrates well in many instances. At the very least, anything we know about Socrates is to be found in Plato.

As long as you cannot accept that I am pure fiction then all you/we can do is shovel the shit your ego needs to expand just as fast as the universe keeps expanding – at or even perhaps beyond the speed of light.

All right, then how do I accept you're pure fiction? Where do I find the proof?

UNTIL YOU CAN ACCEPT what I Accept and laugh at: that I am nothing but a thought, fiction... until then there is nothing to talk about except YOUR SHIT.

Again: Show me where the proof is and I'll accept.

Since I AM nothing but a thought – I cannot have wisdom any more than I can have ignorance, truth or lies… these are all thoughts you call your mind, that comes across as the ego of a 1340 manic/ king.

And what makes a thought insubstantial, again?

I have no problem accepting that your ego makes you a king. But until YOU CAN ACCEPT that I AM nothing but a thought, fiction, you will not Realize that all your words can do is shovel your intellectual shit just to boost your ego.

Why should I not boost my ego?

 

[genep]

Genep:

I am well aware that Socrates wrote nothing, but Plato did. Plato, though imposing upon Socrates' philosophy a bit, is attested to by Aristotle - who also knew Socrates - to have represented Socrates well in many instances. At the very least, anything we know about Socrates is to be found in Plato.

....
?

Socrates was famous for a saying: All I know is that I know nothing.
So he had nothing to write. The joke is that he was condemned to death by the intellectuals just because he – the “smartest man in the world” – kept going around telling everyone that “All I know is that I know nothing.”

And then Plato comes around and starts writing about what Socrates meant when he said: All I know is that I know nothing.
I know exactly what Socrates meant, but only because I ALSO know the same nothing; something Plato knew nothing about otherwise he would not have written all the BS about what Socrates meant.
Socrates probably got the know-nothing disease called Enlightenment from Buddha.
ENOUGH said about Socrates who was probably far more Enlightened than Buddha and his reincarnations could have imagined.

=-=

With all due respect: Let the playing field be even.

I am nothing but a thought, fiction, and so I AM Untouchable Complete and Content. I need nothing, and want nothing. I have no questions so I need no answers, and that allows me to be this thought, fiction, that is Untouchable Complete and Content.
I, this mind and its body, is playing its part in this illusion called life just as perfectly as you are playing your role, just as perfectly. It is just a role, like if it was a movie, so what the heck do I care.

Since I am nothing I cannot give “you” something so you can call it wisdom or stupidity.
I cannot give you anything you think you need .. because YOU ARE just as Untouchable, Complete and Content as I AM but thoughts, the mind, ego, gets in the way with all its needs and wants.

Only when you/I need and want nothing, only then can we sit back and laugh at the way all fiction works the same to be the same: Reality’s Nothing.

echo: 5000 years ago the sages observed their thoughts when the mind slowed down.
They UNIVERSALLY figured out that the mind was just a collection of thoughts that worked EXACTLY like the words in a book. And the words in a book work exactly like a sleep-dream. (The unfathomable JOY of Kundalini… Samadhi … left no doubts about their observations. Complicate this word “Kundalini” with coiled-snakes and chakras and you will find every mental-disease doctors have in their books. )

And five thousand years later TV, radio, and computers and hypnosis and the movies like The Manchurian Candidate, the Matrix, and Fight Club … and then PHYSICS …they all tell us the exact same story because they all work the same to be the same: fiction, thoughts.

Explore how a dream/movie/words work and the mind works exactly the same. This however can only be observed when the mind slows down, in meditation.
If you meditate then try to observe thoughts as they appear to come and go. And sooner or later you will have to realize that thoughts cannot observe thoughts. And the laughter of this fact might just kill you.

To be aware that the mind and its body is fiction, just thoughts, is to be Untouchable, Complete and Content, as Krishna says: “I keep the universe suspended with a single thin thread of my Being.”

 

[Prince_James]

Genep:

Socrates was famous for a saying: All I know is that I know nothing.
So he had nothing to write. The joke is that he was condemned to death by the intellectuals just because he – the “smartest man in the world” – kept going around telling everyone that “All I know is that I know nothing.”

Socratic ignorance was used as a stepping stones to engage those who supposively knew something to get them to speak. Socrates then would procede to use various other techniques to get at the source of the problem, find a better solution, and come to some degree of knowledge, usually annoying people.

Socrates probably got the know-nothing disease called Enlightenment from Buddha.
ENOUGH said about Socrates who was probably far more Enlightened than Buddha and his reincarnations could have imagined.

Socrates never went to India, nor was there any contact with India at the time betwixt Greece and INdia. That would not happen till Alexander's time.

I am nothing but a thought, fiction, and so I AM Untouchable Complete and Content. [...] Only when you/I need and want nothing, only then can we sit back and laugh at the way all fiction works the same to be the same: Reality’s Nothing.

So you cannot give me a thing, nor prove a thing. So, why do you believe in this? Evidently, you have no proof whatsoever.

They UNIVERSALLY figured out that the mind was just a collection of thoughts that worked EXACTLY like the words in a book. And the words in a book work exactly like a sleep-dream. (The unfathomable JOY of Kundalini… Samadhi … left no doubts about their observations. Complicate this word “Kundalini” with coiled-snakes and chakras and you will find every mental-disease doctors have in their books. )

They didn't UNIVERSALLY figured it out. They all shared the same tradition. The East is filled with superstitions. Moreover, what is mentally ill about proper usage of yogic terminology?

And five thousand years later TV, radio, and computers and hypnosis and the movies like The Manchurian Candidate, the Matrix, and Fight Club … and then PHYSICS …they all tell us the exact same story because they all work the same to be the same: fiction, thoughts.

Physics tells us no such thing, and The Manchurian Candidate, the Matrix, and Fight Club are all stories that stem, in part, form nihilistic post-modernist trends in 20th century literature.

Explore how a dream/movie/words work and the mind works exactly the same. This however can only be observed when the mind slows down, in meditation.
If you meditate then try to observe thoughts as they appear to come and go. And sooner or later you will have to realize that thoughts cannot observe thoughts. And the laughter of this fact might just kill you.

I have meditated and found no such thing. In fact, everytime I think, I am more and more convinced that there is an observer to the thoughts. Descartes' "Cogito Ergo Sum" is one of the most important declarations ever affirmed.

To be aware that the mind and its body is fiction, just thoughts, is to be Untouchable, Complete and Content, as Krishna says: “I keep the universe suspended with a single thin thread of my Being.”

And -again-, what is insubstantial about thoughts? Moreover, if all is thoughts, from whence cometh thoughts themselves?

 

[water]

spidergoat,

Do you beat your heart then too?

Oh. This can come across so ... otherwise! I sometimes beat my heart, sometimes, I am very mean to it!

The mind is nothing more than thought.

Mhm! I've said this a couple of times already, but I'll say it again because it's so fancy: In my native language, Slovene (a Slavic language), the equivalent for " mind" is " misli", which literally means 'thoughts'. So when I read English discussions about the mind, it's all rather odd to me -- in English, the mind seems to be something solid, an entity, almost personified. No wonder it's so hard to understand the mind ... thoughts seem far easier.

 

[water]

And -again-, what is insubstantial about thoughts?

They are impermanent and relative, conditioned.

Moreover, if all is thoughts, from whence cometh thoughts themselves?

The general principle for leading a fulfilling life is to seek answers only to questions that are deemed worth answering, that will lead to your long-term happiness. Just because a question can be asked does not render it worth of answering. There seems to be no set criteria for what makes a question worth answering, but a safe bet are the questions "Who am I? Why does the world exist? Why do I exist?" -- trying to answer such question will necessarily lead you into a lot more speculation than you are presently capable to deal with rationally. On the other hand, if you were in the position to answer such questions, then you wouldn't be asking them in the first place. So, either way, you're better off not seeking answers to some questions ... they tend to be boa constrictors ....

 

[duendy]

I look at it this way...........i am very aware of behaviour in society......thee ARE classes as you know in UK, ie., mainly 'working class', 'middle class' and then 'upper-middle to aristocracy' including old Queenie

i notice that some workin class people are more alive, and some middle class people eem more dead. how do i mean 'dead'.....kind of inhibited which shows wit emoions, movement, quickness of mind

some workin class people are very uninhibited and self conscious, and some workin calss black people MORE so

so i, me human, look at this, and kind of analyze it,and feel it. and i have insights--having watdhed behaviour when trippin too....and i feel that what inhibits is TOO much culture/education/indoctrination
culture wants complete mind control. it wants to control yourthoughts....!

so is enep's way a good judo move on tis onslaught?

yes, but i also recommend psychedelic inspiration, and also dont agree with genep that with insightabout feeler is feeling, that that means lughing forever. if thats what he means. i am all for feling the whole diveristy of feeling. i dont think thinking as such directs feeling. we FEEL.........many yogi mindsets try to calm the emotional body, akind of numbing ......where i feel that if you cry cry with fullness of being. sex? divce in,and laughing too. but when laughing also be aware of the injustice in te world cause that aint funny. it is NOT cause victims aint laughing, it's because they are being oppresed!

 

[duendy]

meant to saysome working class people are uninhibited and NOT self conscious and some black people more so....and of course maybe more so to them would be some Indigenous peoples untouched by western culture

 

[VitalOne]

Here is what I think Genep is trying to say about the world not being real.

The material world is real in the sense that it is something. But it is not real in the sense that it appears to be something it's not, it has no factual basis of it's own.

The truth is constant, eternal, and always the same. However, the material world constantly changes. In the theory of mathematics, 1+1=2 all of the time, it does vary day by day or change at all so we can say its an actual truth. The material world is always in constant change, varying nanosecond by nanosecond, so it has no factual basis of it's own and no actual existence or truth in it. It does not exist independantly.

The maya is the illusion of the world appearing to exist on it's own, independantly. As Krishna says, this world has a beginning and end so we should know that it is not the ultimate reality. Understand this, and then you can understand how Jesus can proclaim to be "alpha and omega" and how Krishna can say he is the "beginning, middle, and end".

 

[Prince_James]

water:

Mhm! I've said this a couple of times already, but I'll say it again because it's so fancy: In my native language, Slovene (a Slavic language), the equivalent for " mind" is " misli", which literally means 'thoughts'. So when I read English discussions about the mind, it's all rather odd to me -- in English, the mind seems to be something solid, an entity, almost personified. No wonder it's so hard to understand the mind ... thoughts seem far easier.

The problem with this conception is that it does not take into consideration the other aspects ofs consciousness, namely, awareness, sensory perception, emotional perception, and the observance of thoughts. Creating thoughts is jsut one part of the mind.

They are impermanent and relative, conditioned.

In what sense? And how does this differ from physical things?

The general principle for leading a fulfilling life is to seek answers only to questions that are deemed worth answering, that will lead to your long-term happiness. Just because a question can be asked does not render it worth of answering. There seems to be no set criteria for what makes a question worth answering, but a safe bet are the questions "Who am I? Why does the world exist? Why do I exist?" -- trying to answer such question will necessarily lead you into a lot more speculation than you are presently capable to deal with rationally. On the other hand, if you were in the position to answer such questions, then you wouldn't be asking them in the first place. So, either way, you're better off not seeking answers to some questions ... they tend to be boa constrictors ...

It fullfills my Will to Power to seek the answers to all things, even the most fruitless. That is why I happen to know the real life names of the entire main cast of "Friends", can tell you how exactly burnt toenails smell like - sulphury -, can tell you several amusing and/or interesting factoids about history - did you know that the Romans were the first to develop the lock and key? -, and in general, am a warehouse of information unneeded. The idea that there is some form of knowledge which is not useful is, to me, an absurdity. As Bacon said, "Knowledge is power." Considering I strive for omnipotence, I must also strive for omniscience.

Moreover, this anti-philosophical attitude of not asking those three great questions solves nothing. In fact, unlike other desires, the desire for knowledge of specific things -can- be satisfied by indulging it, and one ought to seek knowledge as it is superior to ignorance.

VitalOne:

The material world is real in the sense that it is something. But it is not real in the sense that it appears to be something it's not, it has no factual basis of it's own.

In what way does the material world have no factual basis on its own?

The truth is constant, eternal, and always the same. However, the material world constantly changes. In the theory of mathematics, 1+1=2 all of the time, it does vary day by day or change at all so we can say its an actual truth. The material world is always in constant change, varying nanosecond by nanosecond, so it has no factual basis of it's own and no actual existence or truth in it. It does not exist independantly.

How does change invalidate its existence? Only that which exists can change. Moreover, see my "Ontological-Epistemological Link" thread, as an argument for truth = existence.

 

[duendy]

Here is what I think Genep is trying to say about the world not being real.

The material world is real in the sense that it is something. But it is not real in the sense that it appears to be something it's not, it has no factual basis of it's own.

The truth is constant, eternal, and always the same. However, the material world constantly changes. In the theory of mathematics, 1+1=2 all of the time, it does vary day by day or change at all so we can say its an actual truth. The material world is always in constant change, varying nanosecond by nanosecond, so it has no factual basis of it's own and no actual existence or truth in it. It does not exist independantly.

The maya is the illusion of the world appearing to exist on it's own, independantly. As Krishna says, this world has a beginning and end so we should know that it is not the ultimate reality. Understand this, and then you can understand how Jesus can proclaim to be "alpha and omega" and how Krishna can say he is the "beginning, middle, and end".

you see the danger of this believe, tis schism between an ideal of ' unchanging truth' and ever-changing Nature, which is compared with former as illusion/Maya, is that that 'unchanging truth' as it is imagined by the mind that invented this concept THEn claims that it is SUPERIOR to Nature. this is the main bane.
Plato had his non-changing world of forms, he was influenced by Orphism who separated stella world from Nature

For tis is where i believeit originatews. ie., the patriachal study of the heavens. theyt SSUMED the heavens where 'unchanging', due to their lck of technology and understanding of vast spans of time, they ssumed that the stella realms wwere unchanging in comparison with Eart where they wold see constant change.
Of course they are 'studying it'/'reason' and then equate their reasoning in studying itas the very same 'unchanging trusth' they are buidling up conceptually. next they fel superior, and are cut OFF from Nature ...and write this conceptual cosmology down in myth to make OTHERS feel cut off from Nature. For now they say to people that they are two parts, 'divine ie., unchanging truth' and 'Titanic'--ie., part of te Earth'...andthat their purpose is therefor to return to stella world, which is 'spiritual'-ie., NOT part of Nature, and everlastingly unchanging!
All based on a false metaphysical assumption, ad a FEAR OF NATURE AND CHANGE!