George Floyd trial,could you make a case for the defendant not being guilty of the charges?

geordief said:
If it had been Putin he was squeezing the life out of it would have been equally reprehensible.

Chauvin's crime may have been first and foremost against George Floyd but was also against us all.
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Agree, but the reason it is such a high profile case is that we are seeing more incidents now of police brutality against the black community, all things being equal.
 
wegs said:
I just don’t feel Floyd’s character or behavior on that day, or in the past relating to criminal activity, is on trial. As you state, there is no explanation that excuses holding someone down when they’re not responsive, and/or unconscious. My point has more to do with that a juror could have racial bias, unbeknownst to his fellow jurors and will acquit no matter what.
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Floyd isn't on trial. He can't be convicted of anything.

Suppose there was a building on fire and someone was struggling with a fireman who was trying to get them out of the building and they ended up dying. That person wouldn't be on trial but it would be valid, if the fireman was on trial, to point out that there was struggling going on.

There may very well be a juror who votes to acquit. It could be due to racism but it could easily happen without racism being involved.

Was Chauvin a racist? He was accommodating until he wasn't. Did he suddenly realize that Floyd was black? Of course not.
 
Seattle said:
Floyd isn't on trial. He can't be convicted of anything.

Suppose there was a building on fire and someone was struggling with a fireman who was trying to get them out of the building and they ended up dying. That person wouldn't be on trial but it would be valid, if the fireman was on trial, to point out that there was struggling going on.

There may very well be a juror who votes to acquit. It could be due to racism but it could easily happen without racism being involved.

Was Chauvin a racist? He was accommodating until he wasn't. Did he suddenly realize that Floyd was black? Of course not.
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When was Chauvin “accommodating?” Is placing someone who isn’t resisting and already in cuffs in a prone position...accommodating?
 
wegs said:
Agree, but the reason it is such a high profile case is that we are seeing more incidents now of police brutality against the black community, all things being equal.
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Are we? Do the statistics show that to be the case? Or are those the only ones that make it to TV? Doesn't it trouble you a little to know that more white people are treated similarly but none of them make it into the news?

I'm not saying it should trouble you more because they are white. It is troubling, IMO, because the focus is on racism when that doesn't appear to actually be the problem. The problem is the police, not race and of course I'm not arguing that there is no racism in society but it didn't suddenly go on the upswing just because only police on black incidents are being shown on TV.
 
wegs said:
When was Chauvin “accommodating?” Is placing someone who isn’t resisting and already in cuffs in a prone position...accommodating?
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The normal thing for a cop to do is to arrest someone and put them in the car and drive off. Three people couldn't get Floyd in the car, they offered to roll the window down, turn the air conditioning up, sit with him, etc.

That's pretty accommodating for a cop when they could just become more violent and cram him into the car and there would be no trial for that. Laying him on the ground, calling an ambulance, when did being black become the issue?
 
Seattle said:
The normal thing for a cop to do is to arrest someone and put them in the car and drive off. Three people couldn't get Floyd in the car, they offered to roll the window down, turn the air conditioning up, sit with him, etc.

That's pretty accommodating for a cop when they could just become more violent and cram him into the car and there would be no trial for that. Laying him on the ground, calling an ambulance, when did being black become the issue?
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I don’t think Floyd was resisting arrest, he was having what seemed to be, a medical emergency and Chauvin should’ve been astute enough as a veteran cop to pick up on those cues. Floyd complained multiple times of discomfort. Why would you put someone in a prone position for nearly ten minutes, using excessive force, if they were having a medical emergency? I’m not suggesting Chauvin took the actions he did solely due to racism, but it’s not an impossibility to believe it played a role.
 
Seattle said:
Are we? Do the statistics show that to be the case? Or are those the only ones that make it to TV? Doesn't it trouble you a little to know that more white people are treated similarly but none of them make it into the news?

I'm not saying it should trouble you more because they are white. It is troubling, IMO, because the focus is on racism when that doesn't appear to actually be the problem. The problem is the police, not race and of course I'm not arguing that there is no racism in society but it didn't suddenly go on the upswing just because only police on black incidents are being shown on TV.
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I agree that there is a problem with police training, from all we have been learning these past few years, and frankly how we need the police to better police one another. Do you believe there is a racism problem in the US? Systemic or otherwise?
 
wegs said:
I agree that there is a problem with police training, from all we have been learning these past few years, and frankly how we need the police to better police one another. Do you believe there is a racism problem in the US? Systemic or otherwise?
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I think it's like poverty, unemployment and other issues. To the extent that it exists, it's a problem. Is racism affecting as many lives as in the 60's and before? No, I don't think so. Is it on TV more now that ever? Yes.

You can't get most things to zero. You can focus on what you can control and often that affects your life more than these other issues.

Before he died, for instance, was Floyd's biggest problem racism, the police, drugs, his criminal behavior, his income vs the 5 kids that he had, life decisions, responsibility?

I don't thing racism was near the top of the list of problems that he faced. How about you? Do you think racism is amount the top of the list for black people, for example?
 
Seattle said:
I think it's like poverty, unemployment and other issues. To the extent that it exists, it's a problem. Is racism affecting as many lives as in the 60's and before? No, I don't think so. Is it on TV more now that ever? Yes.

You can't get most things to zero. You can focus on what you can control and often that affects your life more than these other issues.

Before he died, for instance, was Floyd's biggest problem racism, the police, drugs, his criminal behavior, his income vs the 5 kids that he had, life decisions, responsibility?

I don't thing racism was near the top of the list of problems that he faced. How about you? Do you think racism is amount the top of the list for black people, for example?
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Like most things in life, to walk in another’s shoes is key. I’m not black, but I’ve dealt with a fair share of sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace. Just because I’m a woman. I’d imagine that Floyd dealt with unfair treatment strictly because of his skin color, and since I’m not black - I can empathize, trying to see another person’s story through their eyes.

Floyd’s story is particularly sad in that he had a drug addiction like many white affluent people in our society but because they have doctors who write their scripts, their addiction keeps getting fed. We tend to draw a distinction between black and white drug use - and it’s really as simple as Floyd was also addicted to drugs which seem to start with a legal script of opiates at one point, and he became addicted. He lost his job and then took his habit to the street dealers. Many people shriek over street drug dealers but keep their aunt’s or mom’s drug addiction under wraps, if they live in white suburbia. So, his story is indicative of both a race and class problem, imo. Even if Chauvin never entered the picture.
 
wegs said:
Like most things in life, to walk in another’s shoes is key. I’m not black, but I’ve dealt with a fair share of sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace. Just because I’m a woman. I’d imagine that Floyd dealt with unfair treatment strictly because of his skin color, and since I’m not black - I can empathize, trying to see another person’s story through their eyes.

Floyd’s story is particularly sad in that he had a drug addiction like many white affluent people in our society but because they have doctors who write their scripts, their addiction keeps getting fed. We tend to draw a distinction between black and white drug use - and it’s really as simple as Floyd was also addicted to drugs which seem to start with a legal script of opiates at one point, and he became addicted. He lost his job and then took his habit to the street dealers. Many people shriek over street drug dealers but keep their aunt’s or mom’s drug addiction under wraps, if they live in white suburbia. So, his story is indicative of both a race and class problem, imo. Even if Chauvin never entered the picture.
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I agree that it's a disadvantage to be born in a lower socioeconomic class. It's a disadvantage for me to not be born rich.:)

I've experienced age discrimination at Amazon and we all have advantages and disadvantages in life. You may be right but I think his use of drugs wasn't due to a doctor's prescription but it's been a while since I read about his earlier history.

I can empathize with him and with Cauvin (certain aspects of both) but at the end of the day everyone has to deal with what life throws at you and skin color today seems to have much less to do with that IMO.

My dad died when I was 3, my uncle was murdered when my cousin was 6. White privilege didn't really come into play. Most people in the black community (or any other community) do manage to do the "right thing" and skin color is frequently way down the list of their (and anyone else's) problems IMO.

The more we (as a society) focus on skin color, the more it's a factor. I think one can have empathy for someone without ignoring the elephant in the room which is their decision making for the entirety of their life.

Most people who are poor, unmarried and have 5 kids just didn't use a condom. Most everyone else who has the number of kids that they can afford, did use contraceptives. IMO it's a cop out to make every excuse in the world for bad decisions and then to blame the one thing that wasn't their fault on skin color.

What does being black even refer to? You, I'm sure, have some black friends and their skin color has no bearing in your relationship with them, right? Yet, we could find someone with that same skin color that would make you run the other way if you saw them. Are you running from skin color or are you running from a black man with a gun in a bad neighborhood?
 
wegs said:
I don’t think Floyd was resisting arrest, he was having what seemed to be, a medical emergency and Chauvin should’ve been astute enough as a veteran cop to pick up on those cues. Floyd complained multiple times of discomfort. Why would you put someone in a prone position for nearly ten minutes, using excessive force, if they were having a medical emergency? I’m not suggesting Chauvin took the actions he did solely due to racism, but it’s not an impossibility to believe it played a role.
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What sort of medical emergency? Are you suggesting that he was having a medical emergency when they were attempting to put him in the car?
 
Thus Spoke said:
What sort of medical emergency? Are you suggesting that he was having a medical emergency when they were attempting to put him in the car?
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He seemed claustrophobic when they were trying to get him in the car, and in the video, he had complained of breathing issues then. The situation quickly escalated to placing him in the prone position. I believe Floyd asked to stand up when this was happening, but Chauvin used excessive force which ultimately ended his life. Why not let him sit on the pavement for a bit and then see if he would get in the car? It’s just a head scratcher as to why Chauvin took a hand cuffed man who wasn’t threatening them in any way, to the ground in the prone position? An argument could be made that his intent was to punish Floyd for not “complying.”
 
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wegs said:
He seemed claustrophobic when they were trying to get him in the car, and in the video, he had complained of breathing issues then. The situation quickly escalated to placing him in the prone position. I believe Floyd asked to stand up when this was happening, but Chauvin used excessive force which ultimately ended his life.
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He asked to be allowed to lay down on the curb.
 
He mentioned to the officers that he had Covid19, and was behaving erratically, according to court documents. Why not call an ambulance, then?

Regardless, three officers using excessive force until Floyd died when he posed no threat to them (once he was cuffed which was prior to the prone position), will never make sense.
 
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