George Floyd trial,could you make a case for the defendant not being guilty of the charges?

[wegs]

From what I've been hearing from legal experts, the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin's actions were a substantial factor in the death of George Floyd, not the factor. The defense just needs to cast reasonable doubt on if Chauvin's actions contributed to the death of Floyd. That seems like a hard sell, but all it takes is one juror to believe that Chauvin's actions were in no way, a contributing factor.

 

[Bells]

Yet Trump was accused of racism for suspending entry into the US from Arab countries (so called Muslim ban), including Syria.
Several scholars consider Islamophobia to be a form of xenophobia or racism. A 2007 article in Journal of Sociology defines Islamophobia as anti-Muslim racism and a continuation of anti-Asian, anti-Turkic and anti-Arab racism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia#RacismAnd many Arabs do not consider themselves white:
https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-census-middle-east-north-africa-race/
https://apnews.com/article/a25b5d977a5049d6a9038a536cc7129a

By the laws of your country, a Syrian is considered white by American standards. Your links are basically proving my point.

Officer was obviously in the line of fire, likely couldn't bring a weapon to bear, and we don't see what happens when the guy is taken into custody. If an officer had a clear shot, while the man was a threat, they would have been justified in taking it.

Officer was on the other side. No one even fired a taser as he threatened them before he dragged one with his truck at high speed and hit him with a hammer.

Just as not a single shot was fired against Benjamin Murdy, who fired 200 rounds at police officers (also striking a neighbour twice) after threatening to kill them and had shot his girlfriend's dog.

Or Merak Burr, who had a loaded gun, refused to comply with police demands, threatened to shoot the police who were ordering him to get out of the car, who put his hand on his gun, while threatening police and then drove away.. He was alone in the car at the time. He wasn't even tasered. I could go on and on and on.

Floyd wasn't shot or tased either.

No. Floyd was suffocated to death by a police officer.

So an officer protectively standing between Chauvin and the crowd and Chauvin pulling out his mace is completely casual?
Again, did you see the man being held back and hear the guy say "I swear I'll slap the f*** out of both of you"?
Did you hear the trial testimony from both the paramedic and the officer across the street both saying the scene was not safe?

The off duty firefighter who was part of the crowd, the fire department report and the videos clearly show the crowd was not unruly or threatening. This is the crowd you are saying was so threatening, that they willingly let a man die under their knees:

Just as the dispatcher, who was observing what was happening on CCTV, was so concerned by what Chauvin and the other officers were doing that she called their supervisor... Not because of the unruly crowd. But because what those officers were doing was clearly wrong.

These officers were out of control and were clearly on a power trip. They didn't even move when they couldn't get a pulse and when they realised Floyd was already dead. Chauvin didn't have his mace out for long. And for your information, he threatened to mace the off-duty firefighter who tried to approach to provide first aid as Floyd died and who had clearly identified herself in one of those videos. The paramedics I saw testify said that Floyd was dead when they arrived at the scene and the other, is the woman with the white headband in the image above, who identified herself and begged the police to let her provide first aid.

After the ambulance had left with Floyd. That's not when the officers and ambulance crew considering the scene too unsafe to treat Floyd on site.
The fire department wasn't dispatched until 2 minutes after they loaded Floyd into the ambulance and left. https://apnews.com/article/how-long...george-floyd-4311fb3090f071c5c2f838a6f14e5d58

Read what I have said in this thread again.

When the ambulance left with Floyd, they put a call through for help in treating Floyd. The fire truck was sent to the scene just after the ambulance had left. The fire crew asked where the patient was, the police would not tell him. They had to ask around and eventually found an officer in a shop who told them the ambulance had already left with the patient. They were then advised by dispatch that another request had come through and the ambulance at this point had stopped and was waiting for assistance and the fire truck then drove to that location. That delay was over 5 minutes.

Understand now?

Did the officers even know where the ambulance was? How could they know it stop several blocks away? The fire dept EMT only found that out from the dispatcher.

From the fire fighter report that I linked in my previous post:

E17 arrived at Cup Foods (38th & Chicago) with multiple squads on scene and small crowd of citizens. As 17s attempted to locate the patient, the crew overheard and was told by several people that the police 'had killed the man.' Bystanders were upset but not unruly. No clear info on pt or location was given by either initial pd officers or bystanders. Crew finally located an officer inside the store who stated HCMC medics had loaded the patient and relocated from the scene. E17 encountered an off-duty firefighter who had witnessed the end of the struggle and witnessed the pt go from struggling to unresponsive on the ground while handcuffed and subdued by PD. Dispatch notified E17 that medics needed Fire code-three, and E17 relocated to 36th & Park Ave.​

What kind of bullshit non sequitur is this?
The motorcyclist hadn't been taken into custody, wasn't an "arrestee", and barring any other info, that cop wrongly detained the filming man.
Try to find something that actually fits what I said next time.

You are the last person to be accusing anyone of bullshit.

Police officer pulls over a motorcyclist he thought looked like someone he thought was speeding earlier in the day. He draws his gun on the motorcyclist. So he clearly thought the man was a threat... Because he literally removes his gun from his holster.

He then notices someone filming him from his front porch. With gun still drawn, he ignores the man he thought was enough of a threat that warranted his pulling his gun out and instead physically attacks the man filming from his own front porch.

Are you seriously excusing this behaviour? Seriously? Is there nothing you will not excuse?

To pull him into the car, not out of it. Floyd pushed out the other side and immediately asked to be laid on the ground. Try watching the video with both eyes and the sound on next time.

Try watching the video with your eyes open. The one you linked clearly shows Chauvin dragging him out of the car. This is also filed in court documents.

And you are saying it didn't happen? Come on now, dude! This is ridiculous. Even for you.

 

[Bells]

Like paramedics, police do not render aid in an unsafe environment.

The man was dead! He had no pulse, wasn't moving and was not breathing.

The so called unsafe situation was less than a dozen people, including 3 children, with their phones in their hands begging them to check Floyd's pulse and to get off his neck, not to mention calling 911.

Do you have any idea of how ridiculous you sound?

This is absolutely pathetic. Even for you!

Criminal complaints are only alleged facts. Hence the due process.

At 9:50 in that video, Chauvin only has one hand on Floyd. Are you saying the 180lb Chauvin yanked the 220lb Floyd that hard with one hand?
And then immediately lost any grip of Floyd? Man, the mental gymnastics you put yourself through. Chauvin must be super human, huh?

The video clearly shows him dragging him across the back seat of that car and out of the car. This was seen by witnesses, caught on video from at least 2 angles (one of which being police video and the other from across the street). And it was noted in the criminal complaint filed against him.

Please, stop making excuses.

You didn't answer the question. Is she a racist too? If not, then it's obvious you are, as you apply that to people based solely on their skin color. If she is, how? If you're not a vile, hypocritical racist, that should be a simple question to answer. And if you avoid it, you've proven yourself a racist.

Candace Owens is a known racist.

She once identified as an "Uncle Tom", declared African Americans were better under Jim Crow laws .. She feeds a narrative that sees people like you use her to try to deny your own racism and she makes money out of it.

You didn't get that I thought she was racist when I scoffed and laughed at you for using her? What's next? You're going to tell me you have black friends too?

Try something other than an opinion piece next time.

Try not using the national joke that is Candace Owens next time..

Also, try learning the difference between a medical finding of homicide and the criminal charge of homicide. Two different things, and the former doesn't necessarily equate to the latter.

And you should perhaps try learning that posting what she tweeted, which was actually wrong, to prove something something, was just idiotic.

No, it doesn't, as already refuted.

The video you linked clearly shows him doing it. Which is why the criminal complaint also notes that he did it.

You haven't refuted anything. Your video proved my point.

If that's your evidence for racism, you have nothing but your own fevered imagination. I never complained about anything but the hasty generalization of everyone flying the Confederate flag being a racist. And you being a foreigner directly speaks to you having no clue about how actual southerners feel.

There's a history of your racism. That thread is full of it. That was just one example.

You were responding to my comments about Nazi's and white supremacists carrying that flag... Don't try and change it to something else.

Quit lying. You were making the hasty generalization that "one is usually accompanied by the other", and I called out your dishonest cherry-picking.

And now it is you who is lying. I had linked photos of white supremacists carrying that flag and I also said that they carried that and it was usually accompanied by the other by these white supremacists - as clearly indicated by the images I had posted. My posts are there for people to see.

I wasn't making a hasty generalisation. I was stating a well known and observed fact.

No, it was a bunch of people, discussing their views on the facts of the case. You could have been just another one of those people, if you hadn't exposed your racism by making it about the race of those in the conversation. That makes you a bad person.

The thread was literally created to try to figure out how a case could be made to find Chauvin not guilty..

So my comment remains valid.. And I will ask you, how appropriate is it, do you think, given the circumstances, to have all white posters trying to make a case for him to not be guilty?

Explain it to the brown "foreigner".

 

[Bells]

I mean you don't like it when I refer to something as the black thing (quite rightly, I did it on purpose) but you throw the white supremacist thing around quite easily.

I only state it when it's pretty obvious.

But please, what is "the black thing"?

Can you explain it?

Or did you just throw it out there, because you think using racism to defend your racism is a winning strategy?

Not just in general but you have no problem labeling everyone you disagree with that way.

I disagree with a lot of people on this site. All the time.

I don't label them as white supremacists or racists. Perhaps because they are not white supremacists or racists.

Why do you think, Seattle?

You know, that's your black thing I guess.

And your thing is casual racism?

So explain what my "black thing" is?

It's all about skin color after all, right?

Given the racial profiling horrors resulting in death and perpetrated by white police officers against unarmed people of colour in the US, you actually ask that question and expect to be taken seriously?

So everything you do must be a black thing. I mean, because you're black. Should we refer to you as the black moderator. Your opinions are what? Black opinions? Aren't you tired of throwing these terms around?

You're the one throwing "black thing" around repeatedly.. Not me.

And using racism to defend your racism is pretty dumb, Seattle.

You want to call me "black moderator"? Knock yourself out. I don't think it will be a good look for you though.

Frankly, the only point you are now making is simply that you are racist.

 

[Seattle]

From what I've been hearing from legal experts, the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin's actions were a substantial factor in the death of George Floyd, not the factor. The defense just needs to cast reasonable doubt on if Chauvin's actions contributed to the death of Floyd. That seems like a hard sell, but all it takes is one juror to believe that Chauvin's actions were in no way, a contributing factor.

If the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin's actions were a substantial factor in the death of George Floyd then the defense doesn't have to show that Chauvin's action were in no way a contributing factor. That's not even logical.

They have to show that Chauvin's actions weren't a substantial factor in the death of George Floyd (which is still a hard sell).

 

[Seattle]

Given the racial profiling horrors resulting in death and perpetrated by white police officers against unarmed people of colour in the US, you actually ask that question and expect to be taken seriously?

They do it just as often to white people as well. Just look at the statistic. That's why I can't take you seriously. This is a police problem. It's not a race problem.

 

[wegs]

If the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin's actions were a substantial factor in the death of George Floyd then the defense doesn't have to show that Chauvin's action were in no way a contributing factor. That's not even logical.

They have to show that Chauvin's actions weren't a substantial factor in the death of George Floyd (which is still a hard sell).

Oops, sorry - that’s what I meant. Not enough caffeine today. -_-

 

[wegs]

They do it just as often to white people as well. Just look at the statistic. That's why I can't take you seriously. This is a police problem. It's not a race problem.

What proof would you need to support that there’s a potentially systemic racism problem within our police departments? I agree that part of the problem is a police training issue.

 

[Seattle]

How could that be proven, though? (What proof would you need to support that there’s a potentially systemic racism problem within our police departments?) I agree that part of the problem is a police training issue.

You show that statistically more blacks than whites are treated that way. They numbers show that more unarmed whites are killed by police than blacks. There are more whites in the general population but blacks are over-represented in the violent crime stats so there doesn't appear to be a significate racial component.

Police don't treat criminals very well and they treat struggling, running, resisting offenders even worse.

Look at it another way, how do police treat black businessmen, professionals, people who aren't resisting and fighting? They same way the treat white people who react the same. It's not about race generally.

There are plenty of black cops in most police departments. They react generally the same way that their white coworkers react.

The concept of "systemic racism" has been overused/abused. The narrative goes, even if everyone I come into contact with doesn't treat me in a racist way the system still is racist.

When you've progressed to the point where you can say that, racism isn't anywhere near the top of the list of things that are affecting your life in any substantial way.

When you can't think of a way to show systemic racism in a police department, or elsewhere, maybe one should move on to other "problems"? Clearly giving most any high school grad who wants a job as a cop a badge and a gun is not a good idea and we shouldn't be surprised at the way it turns out.

On the other hand we shouldn't condone people like Bells who are racist and who constantly use that label on anyone who is white and with whom she disagrees with.

Just because the cause of the day on TV and elsewhere is "racism" doesn't mean that it's true. Look at the history of racism in this country. It was a legal fact until the 60's. Now the culture and the results are constantly improving.

Before BLM for instance, most people would have agreed that we've come a long way regarding racial issues in the U.S. Suddenly you would think that there must be a large upswing in racism in this country.

Is that your experience and impression? At work do you see your black coworkers treated any differently? Do you treat them differently? Do they treat you differently? Do you treat your black friends differently? No, of course not.

Tell that to Bells though and you will be called a white supremist. That's racism.

 

[Vociferous]

By the laws of your country, a Syrian is considered white by American standards. Your links are basically proving my point.

So that whole argument hinges upon you uncritically accepting bureaucratic whitewashing? Really?
Government bean counting is not the same as what actual Americans think. Why, does everything your government does reflect the thinking of a majority of Aussies?

Anyway, that guy surrendered after being shot in the leg. See, the "white" guy was shot.

Officer was on the other side. No one even fired a taser as he threatened them before he dragged one with his truck at high speed and hit him with a hammer.

Just as not a single shot was fired against Benjamin Murdy, who fired 200 rounds at police officers (also striking a neighbour twice) after threatening to kill them and had shot his girlfriend's dog.

Or Merak Burr, who had a loaded gun, refused to comply with police demands, threatened to shoot the police who were ordering him to get out of the car, who put his hand on his gun, while threatening police and then drove away.. He was alone in the car at the time. He wasn't even tasered. I could go on and on and on.

Being on the other side is in the line of fire, where any missed shot would jeopardize the officer. Was the passenger window down? Because tasers can't break automotive windows.

Murdy called the Harford County 911 center himself around 8:30 p.m. to say he wanted to surrender, according to authorities. Officials said he spoke with crisis negotiators and came out of the home without further incident.
https://patch.com/maryland/belair/harford-deputy-ambush-ends-attempted-murder-charge


Only this Dec. 2 traffic stop, for speeding in Delaware County, ended peacefully.
...
Sean Maloney, a criminal defense attorney who represents the Buckeye Firearms Association agreed, but said such restraint too easily could have ended in gunfire.

Maloney said that Burr likely didn't know state law when he told officers that his gun was visible and therefore not concealed.
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news...ped-speeding-dec-2-had-loaded-gun/3827075001/​

The first was a standoff, where it would have been risky for police to breach, but he surrendered. Not easy to just shoot or tase someone who's barricaded or behind sufficient cover. Especially when you don't know what innocent bystanders may be about. IOW, no opportunity, so it's irrelevant cherry-picking.
In the second, officer experience with criminals versus ignorant civilians likely played a factor. A criminal would know the law, and wouldn't be playing that game. It ended peacefully.
No idea why you keep saying "not shot or tased". Neither was Floyd, so it's anyone's guess how you imagine these cases are relevant. Where's the drugged up white guy with positional asphyxia?

Oh right, I already posted two of them ages ago: http://sciforums.com/threads/george...lty-of-the-charges.164217/page-7#post-3671646
No criminal charges filed against the officers in two strikingly similar situations to Floyd's, including cause of death findings, but the victims were both white. That blows your sorry cherry-picking out of the water.

No. Floyd was suffocated to death by a police officer.

See the aforementioned post for two direct comparisons to Floyd's: http://sciforums.com/threads/george...lty-of-the-charges.164217/page-7#post-3671646
The white guys don't get charges pressed against the officers.

Just as the dispatcher, who was observing what was happening on CCTV, was so concerned by what Chauvin and the other officers were doing that she called their supervisor... Not because of the unruly crowd. But because what those officers were doing was clearly wrong.

Speaking of the cctv footage seen by the dispatcher, you didn't notice how Chauvin was pushed back suddenly and had to lean forward with his body weight to try to keep Floyd in the car? If not, just more of the many things you seem to completely miss.

Read what I have said in this thread again.

When the ambulance left with Floyd, they put a call through for help in treating Floyd. The fire truck was sent to the scene just after the ambulance had left. The fire crew asked where the patient was, the police would not tell him. They had to ask around and eventually found an officer in a shop who told them the ambulance had already left with the patient. They were then advised by dispatch that another request had come through and the ambulance at this point had stopped and was waiting for assistance and the fire truck then drove to that location. That delay was over 5 minutes.

Understand now?

What part of "the officers likely didn't know where the ambulance was" don't you understand?

You are the last person to be accusing anyone of bullshit.

Police officer pulls over a motorcyclist he thought looked like someone he thought was speeding earlier in the day. He draws his gun on the motorcyclist. So he clearly thought the man was a threat... Because he literally removes his gun from his holster.

He then notices someone filming him from his front porch. With gun still drawn, he ignores the man he thought was enough of a threat that warranted his pulling his gun out and instead physically attacks the man filming from his own front porch.

Are you seriously excusing this behaviour? Seriously? Is there nothing you will not excuse?

Please learn to read. I didn't excuse anything. In fact, I actually said "that cop wrongly detained the filming man". Hint, that's the opposite of excusing it.
I also told you that the motorcyclist wasn't in custody, so it doesn't refute what I said earlier (hence bullshit), about police not leaving an arrested person unsecured. Try to pay attention.

Try watching the video with your eyes open. The one you linked clearly shows Chauvin dragging him out of the car. This is also filed in court documents.

And you are saying it didn't happen? Come on now, dude! This is ridiculous. Even for you.

I can't help it if you don't understand how muscles and body weight work. The cctv footage seen by the dispatcher you cited clearly shows Chauvin struggle to keep Floyd in the car. I can't help it if you're blind and you were duped by the prosecution conflating when the officers decided to quit trying to fight to get Floyd in the car, and laid him down like he asked them to. Remember, guy whining about claustrophobia?

 

[Vociferous]

The man was dead! He had no pulse, wasn't moving and was not breathing.

The so called unsafe situation was less than a dozen people, including 3 children, with their phones in their hands begging them to check Floyd's pulse and to get off his neck, not to mention calling 911.

Do you have any idea of how ridiculous you sound?

This is absolutely pathetic. Even for you!

I have some idea how clueless you are about the realities of policing.
Crowds have been increasingly attacking police since 2016.

The video clearly shows him dragging him across the back seat of that car and out of the car. This was seen by witnesses, caught on video from at least 2 angles (one of which being police video and the other from across the street). And it was noted in the criminal complaint filed against him.

Please, stop making excuses.

You obviously have no idea how muscles, body weight, or even simple reasoning works. You don't try to yank someone out of car to immediately try to shove them back in.

Candace Owens is a known racist.

She once identified as an "Uncle Tom", declared African Americans were better under Jim Crow laws .. She feeds a narrative that sees people like you use her to try to deny your own racism and she makes money out of it.

You didn't get that I thought she was racist when I scoffed and laughed at you for using her? What's next? You're going to tell me you have black friends too?

So, if a black person doesn't think like most other black people, they're racist (self-loathing blacks)?
If so, are you telling me blacks are less capable of independent thought than whites? I don't believe it, but if that's your lived experience, who am I to argue.

You do know that the original Uncle Tom martyred himself to save others from slavery, right?
And you need to pay attention to more than clickbait. Blacks were better under Jim Crow, but only in specific ways, like more intact families and less children outside of marriage. You know, protective factors against a life a crime. It is a sad fact that I can understand you wanting to avoid.

I don't have to deny racism in myself when I can just keep pointing to yours. No, I have zero black friends. I don't have much in common with blacks, but then I don't have much in common with most whites either.

Try not using the national joke that is Candace Owens next time..

So far, all your little quibbles about her have been vacuous. Just a pissy little leftist regurgitating the usual leftist crap.

And you should perhaps try learning that posting what she tweeted, which was actually wrong, to prove something something, was just idiotic.

Wow, you're so twisted up about Owens that you didn't realize that had nothing to do with her.
Again, learn the difference between the medical finding of homicide and the criminal charge.

The video you linked clearly shows him doing it. Which is why the criminal complaint also notes that he did it.

You haven't refuted anything. Your video proved my point.

I can't help it if you're blind.

There's a history of your racism. That thread is full of it. That was just one example.

You were responding to my comments about Nazi's and white supremacists carrying that flag... Don't try and change it to something else.

There's a history of you making up pure bullshit to justify your own racist tendency.
And again, learn how to read simple English. I already corrected your failing comprehension once.

And now it is you who is lying. I had linked photos of white supremacists carrying that flag and I also said that they carried that and it was usually accompanied by the other by these white supremacists - as clearly indicated by the images I had posted. My posts are there for people to see.

I wasn't making a hasty generalisation. I was stating a well known and observed fact.

That picture was the cherry-picking. You did not limit those two flags accompanying each other only by white supremacists. Now, maybe that was your intent, but you failed to communicate it. Yes, everyone can go look for themselves.

So are you now tell me that you agree that not all Confederate flag wavers are racist? That's what it would take for your post to not be a hasty generalization. So take your pick.

The thread was literally created to try to figure out how a case could be made to find Chauvin not guilty..

So my comment remains valid.. And I will ask you, how appropriate is it, do you think, given the circumstances, to have all white posters trying to make a case for him to not be guilty?

Explain it to the brown "foreigner".

How does that have anything to do with white posters? It didn't say, "can white people make the case for his innocence". And I gave you an example of a black person who does, and your only comeback was the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. It just somehow doesn't count, just because you say so. That's bullshit, and any adult should be able to recognize that.

You're a racist if you insist that a person's skin color alone makes them bad people or their opinion automatically invalid. Period.
All people, of any race, should be capable of disagreement on any subject. To deny that denies that some race is capable of independent thought. Are you?

 

[Michael 345]

The man was dead! He had no pulse, wasn't moving and was not breathing.

Clinical dead = possiblity of being revived

If CLINICAL dead longer than 5 minutes probably brain dead and if so = dead

 

[wegs]

You show that statistically more blacks than whites are treated that way. They numbers show that more unarmed whites are killed by police than blacks. There are more whites in the general population but blacks are over-represented in the violent crime stats so there doesn't appear to be a significate racial component.

Police don't treat criminals very well and they treat struggling, running, resisting offenders even worse.

Look at it another way, how do police treat black businessmen, professionals, people who aren't resisting and fighting? They same way the treat white people who react the same. It's not about race generally.

There are plenty of black cops in most police departments. They react generally the same way that their white coworkers react.

The concept of "systemic racism" has been overused/abused. The narrative goes, even if everyone I come into contact with doesn't treat me in a racist way the system still is racist.

When you've progressed to the point where you can say that, racism isn't anywhere near the top of the list of things that are affecting your life in any substantial way.

When you can't think of a way to show systemic racism in a police department, or elsewhere, maybe one should move on to other "problems"? Clearly giving most any high school grad who wants a job as a cop a badge and a gun is not a good idea and we shouldn't be surprised at the way it turns out.

On the other hand we shouldn't condone people like Bells who are racist and who constantly use that label on anyone who is white and with whom she disagrees with.

Just because the cause of the day on TV and elsewhere is "racism" doesn't mean that it's true. Look at the history of racism in this country. It was a legal fact until the 60's. Now the culture and the results are constantly improving.

Before BLM for instance, most people would have agreed that we've come a long way regarding racial issues in the U.S. Suddenly you would think that there must be a large upswing in racism in this country.

Is that your experience and impression? At work do you see your black coworkers treated any differently? Do you treat them differently? Do they treat you differently? Do you treat your black friends differently? No, of course not.

Tell that to Bells though and you will be called a white supremist. That's racism.

I think that within various sectors of society, systemic racism exists. Perhaps, you may think that systemic racism requires each person or most people within a given sector (in this case, police departments across the US) to be racist. (or somewhat) That they're all individually racist, bigoted and need to demonstrate outward traits of prejudice against blacks. One doesn't need to be racist him/herself in order to be part of systemic racism. Systemic racism doesn't mean that in every instance, whites will be favored over minorities. It's rather the totality of all the moving parts (of society - education, policing, corporate America, etc) working together - and not the individual parts, necessarily - if that makes sense?

As an example, here are two insightful articles about the growing racial disparity regarding prison terms between blacks and whites.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/12/03/the-growing-racial-disparity-in-prison-time

https://news.gsu.edu/research-magazine/spring2020/incarceration

I think if we want to know about a particular topic, we have to be willing to toss some of our skepticism aside, and seek it out. I don't believe that in every business, university, police department, etc that racism is pervasive, but it has continued on as an embedded mindset, within the American culture. Perhaps due to the lingering effects of racism from years past.

I'm a donor to something known as the Innocence Project - a non-profit organization that helps to exonerate wrongfully convicted people, who have often been serving life terms for crimes they didn't commit. Most of the stories that come across my email, are of black and Latino men (70% totaled together). What should we make of that? To your point, there have been a lot of strides made to end systemic racism, but research shows that it's still pervasive in our culture. You and I don't experience it because we're white, but I've noticed it in the business world. Corporate charts across hundreds of companies with annual revenues of $1 billion and up mainly have white male C-level management, with very few blacks even in management, at all. (VP's, SVP's etc) Take a look sometimes, and you'll see that top level management in most publicly traded high revenue companies, are white men. It's a reality, and no matter how many companies post their BLM banners on their websites to show solidarity, org charts still stay the same.

When we hear the phrase ''white privilege,'' it shouldn't be offensive - it simply means that if you're white, the color of your skin hasn't caused you to suffer discrimination. This doesn't mean that white people don't have struggles, depression, challenges, etc but those struggles aren't stemming from others' prejudice of them as a race.

Although, I've been reading how white men are beginning to feel discriminated against, in light of recent tensions.

That might be a topic for another time.

 

[Seattle]

I think that within various sectors of society, systemic racism exists. Perhaps, you may think that systemic racism requires each person or most people within a given sector (in this case, police departments across the US) to be somewhat racist. That they're all individually racist, bigoted and demonstrate outward traits of prejudice against blacks. One doesn't need to be racist him/herself in order to be part of systemic racism. Systemic racism doesn't mean that in every instance, whites will be favored over minorities. It's rather the totality of all the moving parts (of society - education, policing, corporate America, etc) working together - and not the individual parts, necessarily - if that makes sense?

Here are two insightful articles about the growing racial disparity regarding prison terms between blacks and whites.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/12/03/the-growing-racial-disparity-in-prison-time

https://news.gsu.edu/research-magazine/spring2020/incarceration

I think if we want to know about a particular topic, we have to be willing to toss some of our skepticism aside, and seek it out. I don't believe that in every business, university, police department, etc that racism is pervasive, but it's continued on as an embedded mindset, within the American culture. Perhaps due to the lingering effects of racism from years past.

I'm a donor to something known as the Innocence Project - a non-profit organization that helps to exonerate wrongfully convicted people, who have often been serving life terms for crimes they didn't commit. Most of the stories that come across my email, are of black and Latino men (70% totaled together). To your point, there have been a lot of strides made to end systemic racism, but research shows that it's still pervasive in our culture.

I like the work that the Innocent Project does. Most of those cases were from years ago, DNA is a great thing for an innocent person and many of those past cases did involve actual racism.

I think there is enough direct evidence of racism in individual cases to not have to stretch so far with "systemic racism".

You aren't ever going to have a level playing field regarding class issues and economics. All you can try to do is to start with equality of opportunity under the law. We have that.

When you say that people (overall) aren't racist but that the system is racist...that actually doesn't make sense. What is really being said is that if someone is born in a lower economic class household then they may not have the advantages of expectations for higher education, roll models who have done well to try to emulate, opportunities to get summer jobs, etc.

That's not racism (systemic or otherwise) IMO. That's just a fact that there will always be those with more or less advantages in life. The Bell Curve will always apply to any group. Education does seem to be the best way out of a lower economic class life but not everyone will have the discipline to make that choice but over time more and more do.

100 years from now there will be more middle and upper class black members and yet there will still be a lower economic class (black and white) that have too many kids, do drugs, commit crimes, etc.

When the percentage of white and black are equally represented in the lowest economic class will that disadvantage that we are speaking of still be termed "systemic racism"? I don't think so. That would make no sense.

I think no one should be going to prison unless their crime was one of violence or at least it should be on their 2nd, 3rd offenses if they are just turning into a serial car thief (for example). Most non-violent offenders should be on house arrest and have 2 year enrollment in some community service (as an example). White or black.

 

[wegs]

I should place a disclaimer at the top of my lengthier posts -- that this post may not be finished, come back in a few minutes. lol I tend to edit, reword, etc. I should probably type a rough draft in Word, then copy and paste.

 

[Seattle]

I should place a disclaimer at the top of my lengthier posts -- that this post may not be finished, come back in a few minutes. lol I tend to edit, reword, etc. I should probably type a rough draft in Word, then copy and paste.

I do the same thing. I do a quick read over/edit and then press the send button. I read it again and catch a few typos. I read it again and add a few more thoughts to complete what I was actually thinking.

 

[wegs]

When you say that people (overall) aren't racist but that the system is racist...that actually doesn't make sense.

I'll return to the rest of your post, but wanted to snip this and reply.

I didn't say that people overall aren't racist - I stated that one doesn't need to be (personally) racist to be a part of systemic racism. Using Chauvin as an example - he may not be racist himself (we don't know), but he's part of a system that for years, has behaved as such. So, perhaps he believed that no matter how he conducted himself the day of Floyd's death, his credibility wouldn't be called into question because he's white. (while being in an authoritative role)

I've been reading a common reaction from mainly whites re: Floyd's death ''well, if you don't want to be pushed to the ground, don't break the law.'' But, as can be heard from prosecution witnesses, there should be a level of force appropriate for the alleged crime in question. Excessive force used and a suspect dies over an alleged counterfeit twenty dollar bill? I say alleged, because Floyd may not have known that was counterfeit. If we are to presume Chauvin is innocent until proven guilty, we should apply the same principle to suspects under arrest, no?

It goes without saying that police work is tough - I wouldn't want to touch strangers all day, let alone they grab me. Nope. So, much respect goes out to those who are respectful members of their communities, and try to keep it safe. But, this doesn't mean that we can't work together towards reform. Nothing will ever be perfect, but it needs to get better.

 

[Vociferous]

I think that within various sectors of society, systemic racism exists. Perhaps, you may think that systemic racism requires each person or most people within a given sector (in this case, police departments across the US) to be somewhat racist. That they're all individually racist, bigoted and demonstrate outward traits of prejudice against blacks. One doesn't need to be racist him/herself in order to be part of systemic racism. Systemic racism doesn't mean that in every instance, whites will be favored over minorities. It's rather the totality of all the moving parts (of society - education, policing, corporate America, etc) working together - and not the individual parts, necessarily - if that makes sense?

If you cannot show an instance of racism happening, what you describe is a boogeyman. It's a conspiracy theory, where many things secretly work together for nefarious purposes, but there's no actual evidence.

Here are two insightful articles about the growing racial disparity regarding prison terms between blacks and whites.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/12/03/the-growing-racial-disparity-in-prison-time

https://news.gsu.edu/research-magazine/spring2020/incarceration

For greater crimes with longer sentences, sentencing is often decided by a jury. Addressing "the system" will not change the fact that people are inherently biased.
There's also evidence that lenience on lesser crimes leads to higher sentences for greater crimes.

I think if we want to know about a particular topic, we have to be willing to toss some of our skepticism aside, and seek it out. I don't believe that in every business, university, police department, etc that racism is pervasive, but it's continued on as an embedded mindset, within the American culture. Perhaps due to the lingering effects of racism from years past.

Believe all women? That sort of suspension of skepticism usually leads to people being denied due process and them being presumed guilty. Bias means that you are more likely to find anything you seek out, just because you're intent on seeking it out and dismiss contradictory info.

When we hear the phrase ''white privilege,'' it shouldn't be offensive - it simply means that if you're white, the color of your skin hasn't caused you to suffer discrimination. This doesn't mean that white people don't have struggles, depression, challenges, etc but those struggles aren't stemming from others' prejudice of them as a race.

The boogeyman of discrimination is a running excuse to not take responsibility for one's own actions.

 

[billvon]

I didn't say that people overall aren't racist - I stated that one doesn't need to be (personally) racist to be a part of systemic racism.

Agreed 100%. All you have to do is stand by while someone else is racist, thinking "well, nothing I can do so I'm just going to stay out of it." If enough people do that, then the few true racists we do have enable a racist society, where their actions are unopposed.

The concept of the "active bystander" is relevant here, and is the opposite side of the coin. If racism isn't tolerated by bystanders, then it cannot become part of society. In this case, the active bystanders could not save Floyd's life - but they were able to capture the video that led to his indictment. They do have power.

 

[Seattle]

I'll return to the rest of your post, but wanted to snip this and reply.

I didn't say that people overall aren't racist - I stated that one doesn't need to be (personally) racist to be a part of systemic racism. Using Chauvin as an example - he may not be racist himself (we don't know), but he's part of a system that for years, has behaved as such. So, perhaps he believed that no matter how he conducted himself the day of Floyd's death, his credibility wouldn't be called into question because he's white. (while being in an authoritative role)

I've been reading a common reaction from mainly whites ''well, if you don't want to be pushed to the ground, don't break the law.'' But, as can be heard from prosecution witnesses, there should be a level of force appropriate for the alleged crime in question. Excessive force used and a suspect dies over an alleged counterfeit twenty dollar bill? I say alleged, because Floyd may not have known that was counterfeit. If we are to presume Chauvin is innocent until proven guilty, we should apply the same principle to suspects under arrest, no?

I didn't mean that you (specifically) don't make sense, by the way. I was pointing out that IMO when systemic racism is defined the way that it is commonly defined...it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I understand that there can be racism in society even though every person isn't racist but I've heard it defined so that no one can be racist and there's still systemic racism. Since it's been eliminated by law and if it's eliminated in actual people then there's nothing left for systemic racism to hang it's hat on.

At that point it's similar to someone who just wants to be offended because life isn't "fair".

If Cauvin feels entitled as a cop, that's what needs to be fixed with the police in our country. I see no need to call it systemic racism because the statistics show that cops act that way to everyone who acts like that to them.

If the police aren't abusing the black middle class then it's not really systemic racism is it?