COVID-19 Source: Will we ever know?

Quantum Quack said:
google "why covid is not artificial"
only 651 million results... but the first 4 or so should enlighten you...
I read about the enzyme issue about 6 months ago and can not remember the exact article.. ( posted the link in this thread towards the beginning when I questioned the same )
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Actually the first three hits I got all center on the same March 17 Nature Medicine article by Andersen et. al. dealt with back in #152. Discredited.
Look this is specialist stuff to argue in depth. I'm not one and neither are you. Digging in around a non-negotiable mostly ideologically motivated position is the norm. Recognizing that and not having interest in expending time and effort that achieves no convergence of outlook, I'll leave it at that.
 
Q-reeus said:
And....as follow-up to last post, here is an exceptionally sharp and scholarly demolition of the mainstream 'naturally evolved' narrative:
https://www.minervanett.no/files/2020/07/13/TheEvidenceNoNaturalEvol.pdf
Every time I see that arrogant leer on Anthony Fauci's mug, while dispensing common sense advice re masks, social distancing & testing levels, I have to ask how deep is his involvement in this COVID-19 crisis as very handy accelerator of NWO agenda. Global crisis -> Global governance i.e. dictatorship.
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Ludicrous crank conspiracy nonsense. :rolleyes:
 
Q-reeus said:
Actually the first three hits I got all center on the same March 17 Nature Medicine article by Andersen et. al. dealt with back in #152. Discredited.
Look this is specialist stuff to argue in depth. I'm not one and neither are you. Digging in around a non-negotiable mostly ideologically motivated position is the norm. Recognizing that and not having interest in expending time and effort that achieves no convergence of outlook, I'll leave it at that.
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I think that it is wise to relax a little on the issue of conspiracy by acknowledging that the science involved is incredibly fluid and constantly evolving ( general statement)
and that our concerns about this pandemic is severe enough to distort our ability to be objective.

So far there have been hundreds of supported positions held by science that have rapidly been discredited as new info comes to light. Often the media is some what to blame, feeding a fearful audience by turning a scientific speculation/hypothesis into fact.

The 'ole Possibility vs Probability issue becomes important when attempting to deal with unknown variables.

For example:
It is possible that a crazy self indulgent suicidal psychopath of any national or ethnic background may have decided to do the deed.
But how probable is it?
It is possible that an Extra terrestrial entity may be behind what it considers an experiment in eugenics...sure...
But how probable is it?

We can imagine all sorts of things as possible and drive ourselves through the front door of a mental health institution begging for relief.

Assigning a motive with out fully taking in all the facts is part of the problem.

Another example of an imagination teaser:
"Ever since I discovered that al-Qaeda had established a bio-research facility in Malaysia just before flight MH370 vanished with all passengers and crew in 2014 one can only wonder the implications."
 
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Q-reeus said:
Actually the first three hits I got all center on the same March 17 Nature Medicine article by Andersen et. al. dealt with back in #152. Discredited.
Look this is specialist stuff to argue in depth. I'm not one and neither are you. Digging in around a non-negotiable mostly ideologically motivated position is the norm. Recognizing that and not having interest in expending time and effort that achieves no convergence of outlook, I'll leave it at that.
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Tell me what you think about this link?
https://fullfact.org/health/richard-dearlove-coronavirus-claims/

The paper begins with a discussion of how the new coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, came about. The study says that this is an important first step because “mistaken assumptions” about the origin of SARS-CoV-2 “risk creating ineffective or actively harmful vaccines”.

Within this section, the study authors write about data showing that there are “inserted sections placed on the SARS-CoV-2 Spike surface”, which may explain how the virus binds with human cells. The paper in its current published and peer-reviewed form doesn’t say this couldn’t have occurred naturally.​

note the double negative "doesn't say this couldn't"
Essentially stating that the published paper does not rule out natural evolution.
 
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exchemist said:
Ludicrous crank conspiracy nonsense. :rolleyes:
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billvon wrote: Agreed. Another sensational story to hook and distract the weak minded.
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The cheap shots brigade fires up. And as usual offer nothing to back their bald and nasty-minded assertions. The same types that would have loudly derided whistle-blower revelations re Operation Northwoods back in the day. Too bad that decades later thanks to persistent FOI requests, that eerily paralleling of 9-11 conspiracy events is now indisputable fact!:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Anyone who imagines that piece of perfidy was a one-off aberration or even the worst such devious plot hatched within ruling circles of a 'freedom loving Democracy' is woefully ignorant of how the world is run. It is admittedly a much easier run to just agree with everything officially endorsed, uncritically swallow 'respectable' MSM drivel, and do one's duty in howling down any that don't conform to the norm. Reference - George Orwell.
 
Quantum Quack said:
Tell me what you think about this link?
https://fullfact.org/health/richard-dearlove-coronavirus-claims/

The paper begins with a discussion of how the new coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, came about. The study says that this is an important first step because “mistaken assumptions” about the origin of SARS-CoV-2 “risk creating ineffective or actively harmful vaccines”.

Within this section, the study authors write about data showing that there are “inserted sections placed on the SARS-CoV-2 Spike surface”, which may explain how the virus binds with human cells. The paper in its current published and peer-reviewed form doesn’t say this couldn’t have occurred naturally.​

note the double negative "doesn't say this couldn't"
Essentially stating that the published paper does not rule out natural evolution.
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Clearly there has been a lot of editing and re-editing going on. We'll have to wait for the dust and smoke to finally clear. The promised second paper by Sorensen et. al. homing in on origins will be one to watch out for. Or is it already published?
On reflection - that linked to in #141:
https://www.minervanett.no/files/2020/07/13/TheEvidenceNoNaturalEvol.pdf
IS the second paper! Given it has come out around a month after the article you linked to here, it's conclusions represent a hardening in favor of human intervention. Recall those 4 cases he quotes as documentary evidence of a deliberate long term plan for human-to-human infection gain of function.
 
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Q-reeus said:
Clearly there has been a lot of editing and re-editing going on. We'll have to wait for the dust and smoke to finally clear. The promised second paper by Sorensen et. al. homing in on origins will be one to watch out for. Or is it already published?
On reflection - that linked to in #141:
https://www.minervanett.no/files/2020/07/13/TheEvidenceNoNaturalEvol.pdf
IS the second paper! Given it has come out around a month after the article you linked to here, it's conclusions represent a hardening in favor of human intervention. Recall those 4 cases he quotes as documentary evidence of a deliberate long term plan for human-to-human infection gain of function.
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What is the formal date of the pdf document you have linked to?
As far as I can tell it has no formal date but is alluded to in the detail only...

To me this indicates the document is far from formal...as one would normally expect to find a date of publication in the heading or sub heading region of the paper...( perhaps I am mistaken)
( It is dated at the end of the conclusion 1/July/2020 but not by the Authors per see but by Oslo & London)
It is also worth noting as an aside perhaps, that Sorensen has a vested interest in COVID-19 vaccine research and development via major share holdings in a company established for just that purpose and if we are to consider such extreme conspiracies may be we should add a financial interests of Sorensen to the list of pertinent "facts".

If you use google research and search for Birger Sorensen you will find only 2 unrelated references.

btw I am not attempting to claim right or wrong.... because I do not believe we will ever be able to claim much at all... ( unfalsifiability appears evident to some extent)
 
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Q-reeus said:
The cheap shots brigade fires up. And as usual offer nothing to back their bald and nasty-minded assertions. The same types that would have loudly derided whistle-blower revelations re Operation Northwoods back in the day. Too bad that decades later thanks to persistent FOI requests, that eerily paralleling of 9-11 conspiracy events is now indisputable fact!:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
Anyone who imagines that piece of perfidy was a one-off aberration or even the worst such devious plot hatched within ruling circles of a 'freedom loving Democracy' is woefully ignorant of how the world is run. It is admittedly a much easier run to just agree with everything officially endorsed, uncritically swallow 'respectable' MSM drivel, and do one's duty in howling down any that don't conform to the norm. Reference - George Orwell.
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Oh for goodness sakes, military and advisers will usually present a range of options for any given problem or issue. That was obviously one of them and was rejected.

You are relying on frankly ridiculous conspiracies and alluding even to a Jewish/Israeli conspiracy in some of your previous posts..

It is blatantly ridiculous and dangerous.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...tists-exactly-zero-evidence-covid-19-came-lab
https://allianceforscience.cornell....racy-theory-about-chinese-lab-refuses-to-die/
 
Q-reeus said:
that eerily paralleling of 9-11 conspiracy events is now indisputable fact!
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Operation Northwoods was a concept that the US military came up with to force the US into a war. It was never enacted, and the general who proposed it was fired.

You may rest assured that someone, somewhere has gamed out every possible angle, action and scenario that the US could find itself involved in. That fact does not make any of the various conspiracy theories that they resemble any more likely.

Anyone who imagines that piece of perfidy was a one-off aberration or even the worst such devious plot hatched within ruling circles of a 'freedom loving Democracy' is woefully ignorant of how the world is run.
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See above.

It is admittedly a much easier run to just agree with everything officially endorsed, uncritically swallow 'respectable' MSM drivel, and do one's duty in howling down any that don't conform to the norm.
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Agreed. Much better to do your own research and rely on neither. Which is how I know the various conspiracy theories surrounding Fauci are nothing more than nonsense to hook and satisfy the weak-minded's desire to feel like they have the "inside story" without expending any effort to learn about what's really going on in the world.

(Hint - that information is contained within the pages of Nature, and the New England Journal of Medicine, and Cell, if you are so inclined. It is not contained within Youtube videos that breathlessly announce, in all caps, that THE MEDIA DOESN'T WANT YOU TO SEE THIS!!!!O!!O!!)
 
I would love to relay a story with regards to myself, two other contributors to this thread, and one other that has been missing for a few days, and out of those I am the only one emerging with any credibility. *My lips are sealed* for the time being anyhow!:p
 
Here's a real doozy!!!
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/26/21338174/covid-19-conspiracy-theories-fauci-sinclair-plandemic

Covid-19 conspiracy theories are being fed by institutions meant to inform the public
Sinclair Broadcast Group planned to allow a coronavirus conspiracy theory to air. It’s part of a worrying trend.

Jul 26, 2020,

Conspiracy theories about the origins of the coronavirus have swirled around discussion of the pandemic since it began. Such theories tend to proliferate during times of crisis, as people search for elusive explanations at a time of tremendous uncertainty. But there’s also something else that’s keeping them alive: Institutions in American life entrusted to inform the public have been amplifying them.

The latest example of this phenomenon was a controversial decision by Sinclair Broadcast Group, which owns one of America’s largest local television networks. The company planned to air a new interview with discredited researcher and conspiracy theorist Judy Mikovits, who suggests — despite all evidence and research stating otherwise — that one of the Trump administration’s top scientists, Dr. Anthony Fauci, may have created the coronavirus.

extract:
Ahead of the interview, Mikovits had struggled to find a platform for her fringe views; a viral video featuring an interview with her — an extended trailer for a documentary called Plandemic — was banned by YouTube, Facebook, and Vimeo in May. In the clip, she made false claims that coronavirus is “activated” by protective masks, that a coronavirus vaccine will “kill millions,” and that Fauci was involved in a plot by elites to use the pandemic to seize political power and profit off vaccines

In her new interview with America This Week, Mikovits alleges that Fauci has, for the past decade, “manufactured” and shipped coronaviruses to Wuhan, China. Her attorney Larry Klayman, a conservative lawyer with his own history of peddling bizarre conspiracy theories, also appeared on the show and claimed the “origins” of the coronavirus were in the US. The host of the show, Eric Bolling, did not challenge or refute the evidence-free claims, despite scientists’ research suggesting Covid-19 jumped from an animal to humans. Throughout the segment, an onscreen graphic reads, “DID DR. FAUCI CREATE COVID-19?”

After his interview with Mikovits and Klayman, Bolling interviewed Fox News medical contributor Nicole Saphier, a radiologist at the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York, in what appeared to be an attempt to balance the conspiracy theories of his earlier guests. Saphier said she did not believe that Fauci engineered the coronavirus, but she also said that there were “several theories” about its origins and endorsed the theory of Covid-19 possibly being “man-made within a laboratory,” a theory for which there is no evidence.

much much more nonsensical conspiracy crap and the like at same link.....
:D So funny, so very very funny.
 
Q-reeus said:
it's conclusions represent a hardening in favor of human intervention.
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since i am not a micro biologist
and do not know the scope of knowns & un-knowns
selective breeding of animals inside closed close co-inhabited zones
wet markets
people living with the animals
selective breeding of those animals
viral evolution inside those selective breeding groups which also are shared human genetics of familys whom own operate and breed and live with those same animals.

cage breeders of wild jungle animals in caged close contact human family which eat the animal and feces of both humans & the animal make it into their combined food cycles
then incubated for a decade or 2 and circulated in to wet markets with high yield blood availability
etc ...

so thats feces (poo) of the jungle animal and the human mixed together and eaten by both the jungle animal and the human while living together
then the same virus being bathed in large volumes of free(no limit to more blood and oxygen & fat cells) available blood & oxygen (open free flowing blood contact)

quite interested in your thoughts ?
 
Q-reeus said:
Operation Northwoods
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what are you selling ?

you are suggesting covid_19 is a usa left wing military false flag biological attack on the usa to blame china ?

and give power to who ?
the republicans ?

im not familiar with left wing republicanism as a militant institutionalized terrorist group

specially considering the usa military has somewhere in the range of 50% black & brown skinned people

should i be reading this with my tin foil hat on ?

feel free to throw in some factual well documented stuff about Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia by all means.
maybe even the bay of pigs if you want to try and sound all smart n upbeat.

modern morality as a government institution is vastly different
equally institutions on the whole have mandated compulsory compliance toward certain moral process.

Oklahoma bombing
ideologically based mass shootings
organized group racial hate crimes

is there any room for any other type of terrorism ?

conspiracy wise
im on the fence with the pentagon 9/11 thing
looks more like a missile than a fully loaded large passenger plane
but i dont study such things
why did it hit a part that was being renovated ?
because the person who fired the missile knew it would be empty ?
i think thats a fantastic conspiracy movie just waiting to be made
preferably big budget white-house-down action block buster style with great script actors and stunts and special effects and lots of complex fight scenes and gun battles
would be awesome
like next gen megga budget mission impossible style
white-house-down meets top gun meets mission impossible meets james bond
real filming on air craft carriers etc
including real footage of military doing stuff for the film
etc etc
mil can get group photos with film stars & days off(annual leave)off in exchange for the days they help out.
 
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Wow. A rash of hostile/skewed replies. In general whitewashing Operation Northwoods as nothing more than a legit war game exercise. BS. False Flag ops that included multiple terrorist acts against US citizens on US soil! All to be falsely blamed on a foreign enemy. And to point that out makes me 'dangerous'?! I'd say it's the other way round. I guess choosing Gladio B among other choice examples of 'Western' FF planning would have got the same response.
And btw the chief architect was merely relieved of command, and a short time later promoted to NATO Supreme Allied Commander:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyman_Lemnitzer
Someone admired his (and fellow conspirators) Op Northwoods thinking!
That FF conspiracy was signed off by the top brass and ONLY because Kennedy vetoed it did it not materialize. JFK was assassinated the following year. To suggest a possible connection is of course crazy conspiracy theorist nonsense. I'm sure you will all approve that much!
Deja vue - 39 years later - only this new FF 'New Pearl Harbor' and following illegitimate invasions was enacted. To almost the sole benefit of a foreign 'close ally'.
Once again, particularly military commanders who notionally failed their duty, ALL got promotions instead! Makes some folks, conspiracy nut jobs obviously, a tad suspicious.

You lot prefer to trust official sources and if approved hack journos do a hatchet job on the likes of Mikovits then that's the truth and only weirdo conspiracy theorists(tm) would question such approved findings. Or so you keep telling each other and scolding at non-conformists.
The atmosphere here is now too poisoned for further useful input. I never expected much better - this is after all ScienceForums. About time to remove the pretentious Science bit and give this 'woke' Leftist site a more accurate name.
 
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Q-reeus said:
Wow. A rash of hostile/skewed replies. In general whitewashing Operation Northwoods as nothing more than a legit war game exercise.
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Nobody did that.

Your attempt at a strawman argument is a dishonest attempt to divert the conversation.
And btw the chief architect was merely relieved of command
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Yes. That's how firing is referred to in the military.
and a short time later promoted to NATO Supreme Allied Commander
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You do realize NATO is not the US, right?
You lot prefer to trust official sources and if approved hack journos do a hatchet job on the likes of Mikovits then that's the truth and only weirdo conspiracy theorists(tm) would question such approved findings. Or so you keep telling each other and scolding at non-conformists.
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No problem with nonconformists here. I am one myself. I do have an issue with clueless, easily led sheep who latch on to the latest conspiracy theory because it makes them feel special and important.

But here's reality - there is not a super secret shadow government using Fauci to first create and release deadly viruses and then later direct the response to them to advance the agenda of a secret New World Order. Occam's - and Hanlon's - Razor prevails as always.

The atmosphere here is now too poisoned for further useful input. I never expected much better - this is after all ScienceForums. About time to remove the pretentious Science bit and give this 'woke' Leftist site a more accurate name.
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That sounds like a good decision for you. I am sure there is a Qanon channel on 8chan that would be much more to your liking.
 
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