The Confederate Flag

[paddoboy]

Considering your copious straw men, I'm sure you believe a great many things that do not comport with reality.

Nup, that's simply you making excuses to write of anything conflicting with your sky daddy. I accept scientific evidence and the theories they support including Abiogenesis. I reject the non scientific nonsense concerning myth and hear say...alrighty?

 

[dumbest man on earth]

*** ATTENTION *** to any Moderators following this Thread *** ATTENTION ***

First this Thread was derailed/hi-jacked by children who wanted the Thread to be about Racism...

Now the children have decided that it should be just another puerile playground argument about Religion...

Could a Moderator PLEASE STRAIGHTEN THIS OUT or SIMPLY MOVE IT TO THE CESSPOOL !!

Thanx in advance!

*** ATTENTION *** to any Moderators following this Thread *** ATTENTION ***

 

[James R]

Vociferous:

I really don't think you understand the point at all. Germany's flag is still that of the German Reich, but you don't seem to infer that Germany is currently Nazi.

Germany's current flag is not the Nazi Swastika. It appears you're woefully misinformed.

The US doesn't officially use the Confederate flag...

Right. That's because the current US flag developed from the original Union flag.

Jeez. I'm not even American and I know more about this that you do.

Some states do, or did until all the faux outrage, fly the Confederate flag, again, as a symbol of regional heritage and pride. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag

Did you even bother to read that link?

Here are the first two paragraphs - right at the top of the article:

Displaying flags of the Confederate States of America in the modern era began as a response to the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s and continues to the present in support of White Nationalist and White Supremacist movements. The flags' revival began with Senator Strom Thurmond's Dixiecrats in reaction to growing public support for racial equality, alongside opposition to civil rights in 1948.[1][2] Although never an official national flag, the most popular and widely recognized symbol of the Confederacy is a rejected national design that was used as a battle flag.

Displays of flags associated with the Confederacy have long been controversial. Some Southerners associate the Confederate battle flag with pride in Southern heritage, states' rights, historical commemoration of the American Civil War; others around the country associate it with historical revisionism and glorification of the Civil War (i.e. the Lost Cause myth), racism, slavery, segregation, white supremacy, attempted intimidations of African-Americans and treason.​

In other words, displaying the Confederate flag these days is a dog whistle for white nationalists and white supremacists, who oppose civil rights for all and racial equality. The smokescreen about "states' rights" and "pride in Southern heritage" is exactly that. Even the organisers of Nascar have woken up to this.

It's just pure ignorance to think that all modern day Confederate flag displays are all in support of slavery. These people aren't likely completely unaware of history, but they are aware of their regional heritage.

You're saying they're just unaware of past slavery and stuff, are you? So they regard it as an innocent symbol celebrating Southern history, ignoring all the unsavory parts and the whole civil war thing? Really?

 

[James R]

First this Thread was derailed/hi-jacked by children who wanted the Thread to be about Racism...

You started the thread with a photo of a guy holding the Confederate flag. It has since come to light that ostensibly intelligent people - Vociferous being an obvious example - have no understanding about what that flag signifies.

Did you really expect that this would not be a discussion about racism?

 

[dumbest man on earth]

You started the thread with a photo of a guy holding the Confederate flag. It has since come to light that ostensibly intelligent people - Vociferous being an obvious example - have no understanding about what that flag signifies.

Did you really expect that this would not be a discussion about racism?

The picture I Posted in the OP depicts a young man wearing a T-Shirt with an American Flag and the words: "America Love It or Leave It" written on it while holding a Flag symbolizing a Group that DID NOT "Love" America and indeed WANTED TO "Leave It".

Wait...
Oh Yeah...
I must confess to another Senior Moment (they seem to be happening more often!)
It slipped my mind that the children here have already turned this into The Puerile Pop-Science Forum

So, James R, any chance that you could give this Thread an Honorable Death and simply send it to the CESSPOOL?

 

[Vociferous]

It has since come to light that ostensibly intelligent people - Vociferous being an obvious example - have no understanding about what that flag signifies.

No, you're clearly ignorant of what Southerners actually believe it to signify today. You're stuck in the regionally obsolete meaning of the Civil War. I couldn't imagine you being further out of touch.

Germany's current flag is not the Nazi Swasika. It appears you're woefully misinformed.

Never said it was. As I've actually said, the current German flag was adopted during the Wiemar Republic (German Reich). Now we can debate how much the German Reich did or did not contribute to the rise of Nazi Germany, but historically one immediately preceded the other with, no doubt, some degree of causation.

Right. That's because the current US flag developed from the original Union flag.

Jeez. I'm not even American and I know more about this that you do.

What do you imagine you're correcting here? Where did I say anything at all about the original US flag? Nowhere, because it's a complete non sequitur.

Did you even bother to read that link?

Here are the first two paragraphs - right at the top of the article:

Displaying flags of the Confederate States of America in the modern era began as a response to the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s and continues to the present in support of White Nationalist and White Supremacist movements. The flags' revival began with Senator Strom Thurmond's Dixiecrats in reaction to growing public support for racial equality, alongside opposition to civil rights in 1948.[1][2] Although never an official national flag, the most popular and widely recognized symbol of the Confederacy is a rejected national design that was used as a battle flag.

Displays of flags associated with the Confederacy have long been controversial. Some Southerners associate the Confederate battle flag with pride in Southern heritage, states' rights, historical commemoration of the American Civil War; others around the country associate it with historical revisionism and glorification of the Civil War (i.e. the Lost Cause myth), racism, slavery, segregation, white supremacy, attempted intimidations of African-Americans and treason.​

In other words, displaying the Confederate flag these days is a dog whistle for white nationalists and white supremacists, who oppose civil rights for all and racial equality. The smokescreen about "states' rights" and "pride in Southern heritage" is exactly that. Even the organisers of Nascar have woken up to this.

And that's why you're completely ignorant of why a black man would fly a Confederate flag. You believe all these leftist dog whistle myths. That link was only to prove, as I said, what states still flew the Confederate flag. And way to cherry-pick it to suit your bias.

In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the Confederate flag represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result: 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride. Conversely, 75% of Southern blacks said the flag symbolized racism.[40]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moder...derate_battle_flag#Public_opinion_(2011-2017)​

So even 25% of Southern blacks didn't see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Try reading more than what just confirms your bias.

You're saying they're just unaware of past slavery and stuff, are you?

Of course not. Quit erecting straw men.

So they regard it as an innocent symbol celebrating Southern history, ignoring all the unsavory parts and the whole civil war thing? Really?

It's been a symbol of the South for many generations, where significance has evolved over time. Again, like so many here, you seem completely out of touch with the reality. Just believing leftists because it suits your existing bias.

And I'm not even a Southerner, nor have any affinity for the Confederate flag myself. But freedom of expression (even that of black people) includes things I don't personally favor. I defend the right nonetheless.

 

[paddoboy]

I must confess to another Senior Moment (they seem to be happening more often!)
It slipped my mind that the children here have already turned this into The Puerile Pop-Science Forum
So, James R, any chance that you could give this Thread an Honorable Death and simply send it to the CESSPOOL?

Some people are racist dmoe...that's reality. I see a bloody flag carrying racist, probably religious red neck in your photo. What say you?

 

[dumbest man on earth]

Some people are racist dmoe...that's reality. I see a bloody flag carrying racist, probably religious red neck in your photo. What say you?

I must confess to another Senior Moment (they seem to be happening more often!)
It simply slipped my mind, paddoboy, that you children have already turned this into The Puerile Pop-Science Forum

 

[paddoboy]

I must confess to another Senior Moment (they seem to be happening more often!)
It simply slipped my mind, paddoboy, that you children have already turned this into The Puerile Pop-Science Forum

The doors behind you kiddo!

 

[James R]

No, you're clearly ignorant of what Southerners actually believe it to signify today.

Not at all. I'm aware of what "Southerners" - black and white, supremacists and racists and others, think about it. I have to ask again: did you actually read that wikipedia article you linked?

You're stuck in the regionally obsolete meaning of the Civil War.

What's your regionally-approved interpretation of the American Civil War, Vociferous? Do tell.

What do you imagine you're correcting here?

Nobody. I was agreeing with you that the United States does not use the Confederate flag as a symbol of the nation. A civil war was fought. The Confederates lost.

And that's why you're completely ignorant of why a black man would fly a Confederate flag. You believe all these leftist dog whistle myths.

Thanks for letting me know what I believe, Vociferous! Your insight into my knowledge and beliefs is amazing. You know me better than I know myself.

In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the Confederate flag represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result: 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride. Conversely, 75% of Southern blacks said the flag symbolized racism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moder...derate_battle_flag#Public_opinion_(2011-2017)​

So even 25% of Southern blacks didn't see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Try reading more than what just confirms your bias.

It's telling that you select that one poll out of the four or five mentioned in that article you linked to.

Of course, you didn't get any information on "Southern blacks" from that poll, because it doesn't break down the data between "Southern" states and others.

The question asked was "Do you, yourself, see the Confederate flag more as a symbol of Southern pride or more as a symbol of racism?"

The black responses to that question were that 72% said it was a symbol of racism, 17% said it was a symbol of Southern pride, 7% said it was both, 4% said neither and 1% had no opinion.

In other words, over three times as many black people viewed the flag as a racist symbol as those who viewed it as a symbol of pride.

More telling is an actual poll of "Southern" views, taken in 2000 (see your wikipedia link). In that poll, 75% of black respondents said they viewed the flag as a symbol of racism, while 75% of white respondents said it was a symbol of pride (compared to 66% of white respondents in the national poll).

Now, you mentioned dog whistles, saying that I believe in "leftist dog whistle myths". The polls just mentioned suggest that when white Southerners wave the Confederate flag, 75% believe (if we are to take them at their word) that they are celebrating "Southern pride". On the other hand, when white Southerners wave the flag, 75% of black Southerners believe that the white people are celebrating racism and white supremacy.

It seems to me that there is a disconnect there, and it is real, not a "leftist dog whistle".

Perhaps you believe that white Southerners are unaware of the racist history of the South. Is that it? Are they innocently waving the flag, obviously to the historical meaning of it? If that's what you're suggesting, then you're agreeing with what I said previously, even though you now describe that as a "leftist dog whistle". And if that's not what you're suggesting, then what? White Southerners wave the flag, knowing that the message they are sending to black people is one of racism supremacy, but not caring about that one jot?

What are you saying, Vociferous?

It's been a symbol of the South for many generations, where significance has evolved over time. Again, like so many here, you seem completely out of touch with the reality. Just believing leftists because it suits your existing bias.

You briefly connected to reality with the poll you cited, but then you lost it in some fog of "leftist bias" imaginings that you decided to fall back on. It's an interesting kind of double-think.

And I'm not even a Southerner, nor have any affinity for the Confederate flag myself. But freedom of expression (even that of black people) includes things I don't personally favor. I defend the right nonetheless.

When did this become a discussion about freedom of expression? Why are you trying to change the topic?

You do indeed defend the Right, often to the point of inventing your own reality.

 

[Vociferous]

Not at all. I'm aware of what "Southerners" - black and white, supremacists and racists and others, think about it. I have to ask again: did you actually read that wikipedia article you linked?

No, you're demonstrably not aware. And not my problem if you take a publicly edited Wikipedia as gospel. I've already explained my purpose in citing it.

You're stuck in the regionally obsolete meaning of the Civil War.

What's your regionally-approved interpretation of the American Civil War, Vociferous? Do tell.

Let me clarify. You're stuck in the regionally obsolete meaning [for the Confederate flag] of the Civil War.

Nobody. I was agreeing with you that the United States does not use the Confederate flag as a symbol of the nation. A civil war was fought. The Confederates lost.

Then why did you say:

Right. That's because the current US flag developed from the original Union flag.

Jeez. I'm not even American and I know more about this that you do.

That sure sounded like you thought you were telling me something I didn't know. I assure you, you weren't, so don't pretend you know more about my own country than I do. I certainly don't make that presumption of you and your country.

Thanks for letting me know what I believe, Vociferous! Your insight into my knowledge and beliefs is amazing. You know me better than I know myself.

What's the alternative? That you really think a black man flies a Confederate flag because he supports racism?

It's telling that you select that one poll out of the four or five mentioned in that article you linked to.

Of course, you didn't get any information on "Southern blacks" from that poll, because it doesn't break down the data between "Southern" states and others.

Again:

However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result: 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride. Conversely, 75% of Southern blacks said the flag symbolized racism.​

Let's see... 100-75. Yep. 25% of Southern blacks did not say the Confederate flag was a symbol of racism. Literally "from only the South". Try to read what you respond to.

The question asked was "Do you, yourself, see the Confederate flag more as a symbol of Southern pride or more as a symbol of racism?"

The black responses to that question were that 72% said it was a symbol of racism, 17% said it was a symbol of Southern pride, 7% said it was both, 4% said neither and 1% had no opinion.

Oh noes, it was only 21% who didn't say it was a symbol of racism and 24% who said it was a symbol of pride. That's a huge difference from 25% [sarcasm].

In other words, over three times as many black people viewed the flag as a racist symbol as those who viewed it as a symbol of pride.

And? Again, it shouldn't be surprising that some black people have different opinions. Are you claiming their opinion are somehow wrong? If so, maybe you should go tell them.

More telling is an actual poll of "Southern" views, taken in 2000 (see your wikipedia link). In that poll, 75% of black respondents said they viewed the flag as a symbol of racism, while 75% of white respondents said it was a symbol of pride (compared to 66% of white respondents in the national poll).

Go read my post again. I did quote that poll. That's exactly where I got my Southern black numbers.

Now, you mentioned dog whistles, saying that I believe in "leftist dog whistle myths". The polls just mentioned suggest that when white Southerners wave the Confederate flag, 75% believe (if we are to take them at their word) that they are celebrating "Southern pride". On the other hand, when white Southerners wave the flag, 75% of black Southerners believe that the white people are celebrating racism and white supremacy.

It seems to me that there is a disconnect there, and it is real, not a "leftist dog whistle".

Like you, some black people believe that flag must still stand for slavery, and leftist myths of dog whistles fuel that. Again, do you really believe that a black man flying that flag is advocating slavery? That would be the case if claims of dog whistles were true. Or is it more likely that people just believe different things about it, and you can't tell which just by looking at them?

Perhaps you believe that white Southerners are unaware of the racist history of the South. Is that it? Are they innocently waving the flag, obviously to the historical meaning of it? If that's what you're suggesting, then you're agreeing with what I said previously, even though you now describe that as a "leftist dog whistle". And if that's not what you're suggesting, then what? White Southerners wave the flag, knowing that the message they are sending to black people is one of racism supremacy, but not caring about that one jot?

What are you saying, Vociferous?

No one said anyone was unaware of its history. Meanings of things change. Again, are you saying black people wave that flag, "knowing that the message they are sending to black people is one of racism supremacy"?

I'm saying that a percentage of Southern whites and blacks both accept it as a symbol of regional pride. And if that's what you believe, why should you hide it? Are the sensitivities of others their personal responsibility? What if whites see BLM as racist? Does that mean those black people shouldn't display BLM signs? Of course not.

So what are you saying, James?

You briefly connected to reality with the poll you cited, but then you lost it in some fog of "leftist bias" imaginings that you decided to fall back on. It's an interesting kind of double-think.

Again, you seem to be flirting with the notion that blacks who disagree with the majority of blacks are wrong or something. I get that you agree with the majority, but don't the minority opinions still have value? Certainly, you don't think they're inferior.

When did this become a discussion about freedom of expression? Why are you trying to change the topic?

That's what the debate about flying the Confederate flag has always been about. Here I thought you at least knew that much. I guess you're more out of touch than I imagined.

You do indeed defend the Right, often to the point of inventing your own reality.

No, reality just doesn't make it through your bubble.

 

[(Q)]

Not a Confederate, a southerner. Because they can grow up in the south and have southern pride, just like anyone else. They are humans, you know.

So it's easier for you believe that it is a photoshopped hoax than a black person being able to think for themselves? That's literally racist.
The Confederate flag is not a symbol of the Confederacy in the south. It's a symbol of southern pride and heritage.

And, slavery was a big part of that "southern pride and heritage", which is what the Confederates were fighting to maintain.

 

[gmilam]

Down here in Texas in the 1970s, my ex-wife went to a high school whose mascot was "Johnny Reb". They were the Southwest Rebels! School flag was the confederate flag. School song was Dixie.

She couldn't understand why the black students who were bussed across town to come to her school were upset with that. After all, it was about "heritage not hate".
I couldn't believe that she didn't see the problem. And I am a southern descendant of slave owners...

I wonder if a high school in Munich named their team the Gestapo, complete with Nazi regalia, how well the "heritage not hate" line would fly.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

"heritage not hate".

I notice the KKK used the flag....that would be enough for any decent person to drop it.

I don't know what the South has to be proud about, when it all boils down it appears they started a civil war so they could keep their slaves and in that war thousands of men and woman died...and one must wonder how different the world would be today if the South won... would slavery be common place today and in such a different America one must wonder who it would have supported in WW2.

Alex

 

[Vociferous]

I notice the KKK used the flag....that would be enough for any decent person to drop it.

I don't know what the South has to be proud about, when it all boils down it appears they started a civil war so they could keep their slaves and in that war thousands of men and woman died...and one must wonder how different the world would be today if the South won... would slavery be common place today and in such a different America one must wonder who it would have supported in WW2.

Still can't understand why a black man would wave a Confederate flag, huh?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Still can't understand why a black man would wave a Confederate flag, huh?

You are entirely hopeless your begging for attention is embarrassing now get out of my way before I crush you..I get it you saw Jan getting a good crushing and now you want one...nice post now go play outside.

I can not understand why anyone has the need to wave any flag at all...people who run out carrying flags are to me very curious creatures.

And I certainly do not understand what the South has to be proud of..what..exactly what..and not that I get my morality from the bible but isn't pride a sin...why are they up themselves...they think starting a war where they fired first upon their fellow countrymen was somehow noble?
What does the South have other than a claim of going to war against their own country to keep their slaves, that is so wonderful?
Alex

 

[paddoboy]

You are entirely hopeless your begging for attention is embarrassing now get out of my way before I crush you..I get it you saw Jan getting a good crushing and now you want one...nice post now go play outside.

I can not understand why anyone has the need to wave any flag at all...people who run out carrying flags are to me very curious creatures.

And I certainly do not understand what the South has to be proud of..what..exactly what..and not that I get my morality from the bible but isn't pride a sin...why are they up themselves...they think starting a war where they fired first upon their fellow countrymen was somehow noble?
What does the South have other than a claim of going to war against their own country to keep their slaves, that is so wonderful?
Alex

And yet the same sort of hypocritical Idiots have the audacity to label others, Atheists, lefties, scientism followers, racists, and right off all criticism of their own disgusting, fanatical anti science stance with comments such as strawmen, non sequitur etc etc, particularly when said criticism has hit the nail on the head.
Which is why I checked out the meaning of the handle Vociferous [of which I was ignorant] when this evangelistic crusade first started.
Mick's probably right. He revels in this sort of attention, and wears the meaning of his handle like a badge of honour. Not much really that can be done, other then to hope that this sort of fanatical arrogance does not consume too many of today's youngsters just growing up.

 

[Vociferous]

You are entirely hopeless your begging for attention is embarrassing now get out of my way before I crush you..I get it you saw Jan getting a good crushing and now you want one...nice post now go play outside.

I can not understand why anyone has the need to wave any flag at all...people who run out carrying flags are to me very curious creatures.

And I certainly do not understand what the South has to be proud of..what..exactly what..and not that I get my morality from the bible but isn't pride a sin...why are they up themselves...they think starting a war where they fired first upon their fellow countrymen was somehow noble?
What does the South have other than a claim of going to war against their own country to keep their slaves, that is so wonderful?

Far enough. You don't understand anyone waving a flag, much less that particular example. Seems a pretty big gap in your understanding of your fellow man. You have no pride in your state, hometown, school, or anything else you've been a part of? I certainly hope you've felt a part of something larger than you at some point in your life.
Not sure why regional/home pride should have to take a backseat to a history no one alive participated in. And I'm pretty sure no one chose what symbol represented their region, they just used what was already there and recognize as such. The meaning of things evolves, even if some people don't want to let them. The South is a regional culture pretty distinct from the rest of the country. Just as some people are proud of being East or West coast.

 

[parmalee]

Not s much interested in the discussion over why a black man might fly the Confederate flag, but this:

And that's why you're completely ignorant of why a black man would fly a Confederate flag. You believe all these leftist dog whistle myths. That link was only to prove, as I said, what states still flew the Confederate flag. And way to cherry-pick it to suit your bias.

In a national survey in 2015 across all races, 57% of Americans had the opinion that the Confederate flag represented Southern pride rather than racism. A similar poll in 2000 had a nearly identical result of 59%. However, poll results from only the South yielded a completely different result: 75% of Southern whites described the flag as a symbol of pride. Conversely, 75% of Southern blacks said the flag symbolized racism.[40]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moder...derate_battle_flag#Public_opinion_(2011-2017)​

So even 25% of Southern blacks didn't see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism. Try reading more than what just confirms your bias.

OK, so there are some Southerners who perceive the Confederate flag as a symbol of Southern pride and heritage, and nothing more, so they wave it proudly. However, the overwhelming majority of their black neighbors perceive the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism...

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Seems a pretty big gap in your understanding of your fellow man.

Maybe it is my understanding of humans that explains my attitude.

You have no pride in your state, hometown, school, or anything else you've been a part of?

Absolutely none.
And I am a hermit.
At the moment you are the only human I am interacting with apart from some others here.
You seem to be the only person I like and trust.

I certainly hope you've felt a part of something larger than you at some point in your life.

I like astronomy and that helps me feel that I am part of the universe and that my insignificance is beyond my comprehension no matter how hard I try ...but I think I understand insignificance better than most humans.

And I'm pretty sure no one chose what symbol represented their region, they just used what was already there and recognize as such

Exactly.

Just as some people are proud of being East or West coast.

Why do folk need to feel proud?....low self esteem?

Pride causes all sorts of problems in my view.

Alex