Should intellectual Dishonest be more strictly moderated?

Should Intellectual Dishonesty be more strictly moderated/punished?


  • Total voters
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I just quoted you misrepresenting MR. He claimed one thing, and then you erroneously attributed a viewpoint to him that he never expressed. Isn't it rather interesting that individuals who scream 'intellectual dishonesty' at the top of their lungs are the ones who engage in the most skulduggery? Projection at its finest.

Hm, I dare say you are either illiterate, or attempting to troll... how droll.

Allow me to open your eyes.

MR Posted:
If a poster doesn't agree with your accessment that they are being dishonest, they certainly have to right to do that. The burden will then be on you to prove they are being dishonest and deliberately deceptive, something very hard to do. Again, it all boils down to the subjective feelings of the accuser, which are often already clouded with hostility towards the accused and a desire to shut him up because he will not agree with them. How do we know the very attempt to punish someone for dishonesty isn't itself laden with a personal agenda to censor the opposing view? We don't. That's why its a bad idea as an infractionable or bannable offence. Because it can always be twisted by someone towards getting rid of someone they don't like, particularly when you have a moderator also so embroiled in the debate he has lost all objectivity to properly moderate anymore.

A little context: In several previous threads, MR has taken to simply IGNORING evidence that stands in opposition to his position; be this because he knows he cannot sufficiently explain it or otherwise, he has ignored it. (as a recent example - the bigfoot thread, and his refusal to answer for how the creature could possibly procreate given the lack of genetic diversity)

I replied:
So you feel that intentionally and repeatedly misquoting someone is not dishonest? That ignoring arguments you dislike or cannot disprove isn't dishonest? Please, elaborate on this.

MR's reply:

You would have to both prove that there was a misquote, and an intent to misquote, which is very hard to do. Simply alleging dishonesty doesn't hack it. And people ignore points and arguments for many reasons. Many I ignore because they're so irrelevant to the debate that they derail the discussion. Like whether a lie is an intentional lie or just a falsehood, both definitions of which are found in the dictionary. Many others I ignore because they are based on false assumptions, because they are red herrings, or because they are strawmen. Doesn't mean there is an intent to deceive going on.

Now, he is entitled to his opinion; however, just as in the criminal justice system, your opinion on the ruling does not, by itself, excuse yourself from said ruling.

Then you come along and claim
For someone who complains endlessly about intellectual dishonesty, you sure have a habit of misrepresenting the viewpoints of other posters. Physician, heal thyself.
and
I just quoted you misrepresenting MR. He claimed one thing, and then you erroneously attributed a viewpoint to him that he never expressed. Isn't it rather interesting that individuals who scream 'intellectual dishonesty' at the top of their lungs are the ones who engage in the most skulduggery? Projection at its finest.

So, again I say - point out where I have misrepresented what MR is saying.
 
To the OP: yes.
But we should try to avoid threads just devolving into accusation of such followed by denial / counter accusation, ultimately to the detriment of the thread in question.

Anyone can be guilty of inadvertently misquoting, or misrepresenting (e.g. when they have simply misunderstood), or cherry-picking which points to counter (deeming the others to be not pertinent) - but it is when such continues after being pointed out, without satisfaction given, that the dishonesty must be taken as being deliberate, and thus to be moderated (if that is the route opted for).

But ideally once the misquote, the misrepresentation, the failure to address certain points etc, is highlighted (hopefully in a non-accusatory way - although I am oft guilty of that), the person will apologise for such and make redress, or explain why they did such as they did, hopefully to the satisfaction of all. And we can all move on in the spirit of friendship, harmony, family, blah blah blah. ;)
 
MR has taken to simply IGNORING evidence that stands in opposition to his position

That's an accusation that needs evidence to back it up. Where have I ignored or failed to address any evidence in opposition to my position? Hmmm....are we misrepresenting posters for the sake of infracting them again?
 
That's an accusation that needs evidence to back it up. Where have I ignored or failed to address any evidence in opposition to my position? Hmmm....are we misrepresenting posters for the sake of infracting them again?

The evidence is already there, but I shall provide more, just for giggles n shits:

You have been given several (dozen) possibilities as to why people claim these fantastic fantasies... as well as multiple reasons why Bigfoot cannot, at a biological level, exist.

Do you deny the issue of genetic degradation due to small population sizes, caloric/nutritional needs problems, etcetera?
You never replied.

================
Unicorn Sighting Reported In Don Valley

Amateur video depicting what could be one of the most elusive legendary creatures, the unicorn, has been captured on film by a Toronto resident. The video in question, shot by a local birdwatcher, Peter Hickey-Jones, shows what appears to be a white horse with a single horn on its head emerging from the trees in the Don Valley wetland.

You hand-waved this away as "absurd"
lol! I guess they're real then!

I didn't ask you if you cared.

I didn't ask you if you believed.

I asked you if you understood.

You refused to answer Deacon's question several times, instead claiming:
Sorry. I still don't care why you don't believe. Can we change the subject now?

So, there are three examples from ONE thread... do I need to continue? There are plenty of examples from when you went on your anti-vaxx tirade...

Ah yes..the power of focused counting to distract us from changing environmental details. What next? Proof eyewitness accounts are unreliable because drivers can be distracted with texting?
Ignoring evidence because you dislike the test premise (despite it being scientifically valid)

There was the entire debacle where you stated photos were acceptable evidence for the existence of bigfoot, then refused to accept photos and even video evidence as proof of the existence of Unicorns... quite a double standard.

Then there was your refusal to accept that insects on camera lenses can cause false-reports of ghosts.
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/ghost-caught-on-dover-castle-cctv.142633/

The list goes on... but I feel pretty secure that, for any rational, reasonable, self-thinking individual, the evidence presented here is sufficient.
 
The evidence is already there, but I shall provide more, just for giggles n shits:


You never replied.



You hand-waved this away as "absurd"




You refused to answer Deacon's question several times, instead claiming:


So, there are three examples from ONE thread... do I need to continue? There are plenty of examples from when you went on your anti-vaxx tirade...


Ignoring evidence because you dislike the test premise (despite it being scientifically valid)

There was the entire debacle where you stated photos were acceptable evidence for the existence of bigfoot, then refused to accept photos and even video evidence as proof of the existence of Unicorns... quite a double standard.

Then there was your refusal to accept that insects on camera lenses can cause false-reports of ghosts.
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/ghost-caught-on-dover-castle-cctv.142633/

The list goes on... but I feel pretty secure that, for any rational, reasonable, self-thinking individual, the evidence presented here is sufficient.

So which of those were evidence, and which of those that were evidence did I fail to address or ignore?
You do understand the difference between discounting evidence and ignoring it don't you? Something done on an almost daily basis with the evidence I post in the GMU thread.
 
So which of those were evidence, and which of those that were evidence did I fail to address or ignore?
You do understand the difference between discounting evidence and ignoring it don't you? Something done on an almost daily basis with the evidence I post in the GMU thread.

Hand-waving it away is not "discounting" it... if you want to discount evidence, you have to show WHY it is inadmissible. You do understand that, right?
 
Hand-waving it away is not "discounting" it... if you want to discount evidence, you have to show WHY it is inadmissible. You do understand that, right?

So again, where have I "ignored" evidence? Remember what evidence is. It's not an argument or a point someone made. It's physical or anecdotal evidence of something. Where have I ignored any of that?
 
So again, where have I "ignored" evidence? Remember what evidence is. It's not an argument or a point someone made. It's physical or anecdotal evidence of something. Where have I ignored any of that?

Now you are redefining the term Evidence... okay, I'll play along, why not.

Biologically speaking, there MUST be a certain degree of genetic separation between breeding partners over generations to ensure the species is viable. I have brought this point up SEVERAL times regarding BigFoot - how can something with so low a number of breeding stock POSSIBLY continue to reproduce?

You have not seen fit to provide an answer to this.
 
Now you are redefining the term Evidence... okay, I'll play along, why not.

Biologically speaking, there MUST be a certain degree of genetic separation between breeding partners over generations to ensure the species is viable. I have brought this point up SEVERAL times regarding BigFoot - how can something with so low a number of breeding stock POSSIBLY continue to reproduce?

You have not seen fit to provide an answer to this.

That's not evidence. That's an objection. To which I will respond, how can the lions, whose population is down to around 400 in the West African nations, possibly continue to reproduce too?
 
That's not evidence. That's an objection. To which I will respond, how can the lions, whose population is down to around 400 in the West African nations, possibly continue to reproduce too?

http://www.largecarnivoresafrica.com/lion/

Threats

  • Prey depletion
  • Small lion population size and its inherent extinction risks
  • Human-lion conflict, retaliatory or pre-emptive killing by pastoralists.
  • Poaching
  • Habitat fragmentation, degradation and conversion
http://www.the-eis.com/searchresults.php?action=moreinfo&id=8896
Description:
Management of reintroduced lions in small, fenced reserves in South Africa : an assessment and guidelines

Summary / Notes:
Managers of African lions (Panthera leo) on reserves where they have been reintroduced increasingly face challenges associated with ecological regulation, genetic degradation and increased susceptibility to catastrophic events. The Lion Management Forum (LiMF) was formed in 2010 to define these challenges and explore possible solutions with the view to developing appropriate management guidelines. LiMF bases its recommendations on the ecologically sound premise that managers should, as far as possible, mimic natural processes that have broken down in reserves, using proactive rather than reactive methods, i.e. management should focus on causal mechanisms as opposed to reacting to symptoms. Specifically, efforts should be made to reduce population growth and thus reduce the number of excess lions in the system; disease threats should be reduced through testing and vaccination whenever animals are translocated; and genetic integrity should be monitored. The latter is particularly important, as most of these reserves are relatively small (typically <1000 km2). An adaptive management framework is needed to implement the guidelines developed here on reserves across the country, with regional nodes addressing more local genetic issues, within an overall national plan. Ongoing monitoring and scientific assessment of behavioural, population and systemic responses of lion populations and responsive modification of the guidelines, should improve management of lions on small reserves in South Africa. This approach will provide a template for evidence-based conservation management of other threatened species. Ultimately 'National Norms and Standards' must be established and a 'National Action Plan' for lions in South Africa developed. Keywords: Panthera leo, Re-introduction, Small reserve management.

http://www.ted.com/conversations/11885/do_zoos_help_biodiversity_cons.html
Derek Smith
Jun 8 2012: Genetic degradation is a major concern in many small breeding populations. Dealing with inbreeding depression is one of the many challenges zoos face. I know that some zoos will actually share animals for breeding purposes to preserve genetic diversity and reduce the chance of recessive lethal alleles in their populations. Breeding programs are still relatively new and many of the animals studied (mammals mostly) have low reproductive rates and so far it has been hard to study these effects carefully.

http://www.largecarnivoresafrica.com/wp-content/uploads/Genetic-diversity-evolutionary-history.pdf
However, in West and Central Africa lion populations are generally small and isolated (Chardonnet, 2002; Bauer & Van Der Merwe, 2004). There is an increasing number of lions in peripherally isolated populations or in wildlife parks with little to no gene flow. Lions may face genetic erosion and inbreeding in these regions (Bjo¨rklund, 2003). Several studies show that inbreeding depression is much more pervasive in wild populations than previously realized (Lacy, 1997; Hedrick & Kalinowski, 2000; Keller & Waller, 2002; Tallmon et al., 2004), and it has been observed that there is a strong correlation between genetic variation and reproductive parameters in lions (O’Brien, 1994).

They can continue to reproduce despite this erosion - however:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_erosion
Processes and consequences[edit]
Population bottlenecks create shrinking gene pools, which leave fewer and fewer fertile mating partners. The genetic implications can be illustrated by considering the analogy of a high-stakes poker game with a crooked dealer. Consider that the game begins with a 52-card deck (representing high genetic diversity). Reduction of the number of breeding pairs with unique genes resembles the situation where the dealer deals only the same five cards over and over, producing only a few limited "hands".

As specimens begin to inbreed, both physical and reproductive congenital effects and defects appear more often. Abnormal sperm increase, infertility rises, and birthrates decline. "Most perilous are the effects on the immune defense systems, which become weakened and less and less able to fight off an increasing number of bacterial, viral, fungal, parasitic, and other disease-producing threats. Thus, even if an endangered species in a bottleneck can withstand whatever human development may be eating away at its habitat, it still faces the threat of an epidemic that could be fatal to the entire population."[1]

Simply put, reduced genetic diversity increases the risk of a single disease wiping them out. If allowed to continue unchecked, it can result in animals simply incapable of reproducing at all.
 
So why couldn't Bigfoot continue to reproduce in the same way?
He has!
==============================
USA: Woman Claims Daughter is Half-Sasquatch
February 21st, 2014 | by Bob Flanagan
sasquatch.png

Colorado| Barbara Smithson, an elementary school teacher from the small town of Wilford, claims that her newborn baby is actually the fruit of a strange sexual intercourse she had with a sasquatch during a trip in the Rockies last summer.
«It was a really unique experience» explains the 29-year old woman. «You know, I’ve been single for quite some time, so when I met this nice, gentle, an cuddly male… it was hard to say “no”. It was an unforgettable night… I just really didn’t expect to get pregnant! Now I have little Stacy here with me, and she’s healthy. She’s a bit hairy, but look how cute she is! She’s just so adorable. I will certainly try to introduce her to her father, but I don’t wanna put to much hope in the fact that he could be as excited as I am.»
==================================
 
So why couldn't Bigfoot continue to reproduce in the same way?

Simple - the smaller the population, the more rapidly the degradation occurs. With hundreds of lions, it is occurring over generations. With, what, a few dozen bigfoot?... it would occur much faster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population

Minimum viable population is usually estimated as the population size necessary to ensure between 90 and 95 percent probability of survival between 100 to 1,000 years into the future. The MVP can be estimated using computer simulations for population viability analyses (PVA). PVA models populations using demographic and environmental information to project future population dynamics. The probability assigned to a PVA is arrived at after repeating the environmental simulation thousands of times.

For example, for a theoretical simulation of a population of 50 giant pandas in which the simulated population goes completely extinct, 30 out of 100 stochastic simulations projected 100 years into the future are not viable. Causes of extinction in the simulation may include inbreeding depression, natural disaster, or climate change. Extinction occurring in 30 out of 100 runs would give a survival probability of 70%. In contrast, in the same simulation with a starting population of 60 pandas, the panda population may only become extinct in four of the hundred runs, resulting in a survival probability of 96%. In this case the minimum viable population that satisfies the 90- to 95% probability for survival is between 50 and 60 pandas. (These figures have been invented for the purpose of this example.)

MVP does not take human intervention into account. Thus, it is useful for conservation managers and environmentalists; a population may be increased above the MVP using a captive breeding program, or by bringing other members of the species in from other reserves.

There is naturally some debate on the accuracy of PVAs, since a wide variety of assumptions generally are required for future forecasting; however, the important consideration is not absolute accuracy, but promulgation of the concept that each species indeed has an MVP, which at least can be approximated for the sake of conservation biology and Biodiversity Action Plans.[2]

There is a marked trend for insularity, surviving genetic bottlenecks and r-strategy to allow far lower MVPs than average. Conversely, taxa easily affected by inbreeding depression – having high MVPs – are often decidedly K-strategists, with low population densities while occurring over a wide range. An MVP of 500 to 1,000 has often been given as an average for terrestrial vertebrates when inbreeding or genetic variability is ignored.[3][4] When inbreeding effects are included, estimates of MVP for many species are in the thousands. Based on a meta-analysis of reported values in the literature for many species, Traill et al. reported a median MVP of 4,169 individuals.[5]

With the Lions, humanity is stepping in to attempt to increase diversity (artificial insemination, reservations, etc). Is the same being done for Bigfoot?
 
The Bigfoot Researchers Organization estimates that there are 2,000-6,000 Bigfoots in North America.
That's within the MVP of any given species.

"An MVP of 500 to 1,000 has often been given as an average for terrestrial vertebrates when inbreeding or genetic variability is ignored.[3][4] When inbreeding effects are included, estimates of MVP for many species are in the thousands. Based on a meta-analysis of reported values in the literature for many species, Traill et al.reported a median MVP of 4,169 individuals."
 
The Bigfoot Researchers Organization estimates that there are 2,000-6,000 Bigfoots in North America.
That's within the MVP of any given species.

"An MVP of 500 to 1,000 has often been given as an average for terrestrial vertebrates when inbreeding or genetic variability is ignored.[3][4] When inbreeding effects are included, estimates of MVP for many species are in the thousands. Based on a meta-analysis of reported values in the literature for many species, Traill et al.reported a median MVP of 4,169 individuals."

So, what you are telling me is... we can find and track a species of Grizzly Bears with a population under 200, the Californian Condor just over 100), and the Amur Leopard (population under 40)... yet we cannot find a population of super-sized ape-hominids numbering almost a thousand?

That seems incredibly unlikely... you do realize that, right?
 
So, what you are telling me is... we can find and track a species of Grizzly Bears with a population under 200, the Californian Condor just over 100), and the Amur Leopard (population under 40)... yet we cannot find a population of super-sized ape-hominids numbering almost a thousand?

That seems incredibly unlikely... you do realize that, right?

If the species is nocturnal and intelligent, having honed for thousands of years the art of concealment, such is well explained.
 
If the species is nocturnal and intelligent, having honed for thousands of years the art of concealment, such is well explained.
And yet we can quite readily find people using FLIR and Thermal Imaging... yet BigFoot is able to evade these technologies? At this point, BigFoot should have simply taken over as the dominant species, if they are as advanced as you seem to think.

Let me put it another way:

We are able to get "pictures of advanced technology crafts from super advanced civilizations capable of interstellar travel", yet we cannot manage to get a good quality image, nor find the body of, an ape-man with the technological equivalent of a cro-magnum?
 
And yet we can quite readily find people using FLIR and Thermal Imaging... yet BigFoot is able to evade these technologies? At this point, BigFoot should have simply taken over as the dominant species, if they are as advanced as you seem to think.

Let me put it another way:

We are able to get "pictures of advanced technology crafts from super advanced civilizations capable of interstellar travel", yet we cannot manage to get a good quality image, nor find the body of, an ape-man with the technological equivalent of a cro-magnum?

Who said there's no good quality pics/videos of Bigfoot? The internet's full of them.
 
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