RealityCheck: moderators are trolling and treating me unfairly

[RealityCheck]

No it's not ok. When you posted your topic in a public forum you essentially have no rights whatsoever to dictate how people respond to it (unless it's in the formal debates forum). As a moderator, it actually is my job (a voluntary and largely thankless one as AN has said) to enforce the forum rules and in effect to govern what is permitted in threads in the forums in which I have mod privileges. I'm afraid you simply have to accept that you lose control of threads when you post on a public forum like this, and where you have agreed to a set of rules you must abide by. Every user including the mods have to accept this. If you don't like it then get a blog.



I have been a little less restrained in my moderation than AN has, and that is probably because I'm not as patient as he is. I have made mistakes as a moderator and have subsequently apologised for my errors, but this is not one of those times. As I have said before, I think the way your thread was handled was about the only way it could have been under the circumstances. If you'd have actually waited for peoples responses like you claim you were doing, rather than posting 10 times telling people off in no uncertain terms then the thread would probably still be open.

Also, I don't quite know why you are gunning for me. I didn't close the thread and I can hardly be accused of shutting down the discussion with farsight since the thread I linked to on the topic he was talking about is still open. Have you got sour grapes because I gave you a ban for reposting another thread that got closed or something?



I'm not biased against gustav. I don't think I've ever responded to a post of his before now. Apparently you are the one who is biased because anyone that disagrees with you has opinions while anyone that agrees with you is in possession of the facts.


If you think any actual science comes out of forums like this then I am afraid you are sorely mistaken. As AN said, it's a good place for scientists to flex the intellectual muscles, but I haven't seen a single example of new science coming out a forum collaboration (lots of minor but complicated questions have been asked and answered, and politely people with a keen interest in science, if not the talent steer well clear of those threads. If you have a problem with my moderation feel free to take it up with an admin or super mod. James R, Stryder and Tiassa are some that are online reasonably regularly. I'm not going to apologise because I wouldn't change the way this has been dealt with.

prometheus,

When I post an OP I expect respondents who are on-topic. I wait for all on-topic respondents before I start discussing all the replies in the fuller context. That is perfectly reasonable. Yes?

What I DON'T expect is you coming in and INTIMIDATING potential respondents with UNJUSTIFIED actions under the 'cover' of 'mod'. OK?

And I ONLY told off the trolls with those posts I made perforce of such trolls. Your troll posts were adding to the problem which forced me to post trying to get the trolls out. But you encouraged them with your continuing troll posts which were empty and more intimidation. Not one on-topic post from you. See the problem?

And I clearly indicated that ON-TOPIC replies would be responded to later when the full discussion commenced.

YOUR FAULTY 'construction' on all that is YOUR problem, not mine.

It was AN who closed the thread, but certainly based on your common 'pattern' of mod attitudes to the thread as well as his own. Else it would only have required the removal of YOUR initial intimidatory post and the other troll posts and all would have been OK and we wouldn't be discussing this now. The fact that neither of you deigned to take the time and fair reading to actually get rid of the trolls but instead (as usual for him and you) you just close the thread instead of doing your job properly.Yes?

Tha's not 'gunning for you', mate. That is pointing out the facts and wanting to solve the problem thereby. Whether you take it personally or just take note and remedy the situation is for you to decide. But don't expect someone who has been adversely affected MORE THAN ONCE by such improper/inadequate 'mod' action/attitude to be grateful, that would be too much even for such an easy-going and forgiving Aussie like me! How many times have you acted to sanction me unfairly while the trolls have gotten away and been emboldened by your apparent bias and/or inattention? The thread where Farsight and you have crossed is neither here nor there. I only wanted anything 'personal' between you two from THERE not to be brought into MY thread by YOU, as I clearly indicated. That's all there.


And like I said before, the very fact that you didn't see any other way of handling the problem of the trolls except by closing the thread is ipso facto proof that you are NOT TRYING. All you had to do was get rid of the trolls (and for yourself to either post on-topic or stay out) and all would have been courteous and polite responses and eventual full context discussion of the OP and on-topic responses to same. But the trolls won again because you couldn't see THE OBVIOUS REMEDY and just ban the trolls ON THE SPOT and delete their troll posts, period! PROBLEM SOLVED, But you left it to ANOTHER MOD to come in all UNinformed and just as 'iffy' in attitude/response to CLOSE THREAD. You abdicated your mod responsibility after you intruded into the thread and created a problem; then AN came in and added his own inept 'remedy' and closed it. What about the innocent thread/OP and the people who were interested and looking forward to a proper and courteous discussion of same on topic? Do THEY get any consideration? Or is it only THE TROLLS which deserve your leaving them alone while they wreck a thread/OP in the certain knowledge that it won't be THEM that suffers?


And Gustav's post was clearly on-topic and supported by quotes from YOUR post. The fact that you 'opined' that he was wrong and was trolling is IN ITSELF EVIDENCE of your bias there. I only pointed that out. What you seem to think is right and wrong has a lot to do with your OWN way of 'reading' others perhaps? So it's a bit rich for you to be casting me as the one with the double standards there about 'biased opinions' and 'evident facts', hey?


Now we come to the clincher:

If you think any actual science comes out of forums like this then I am afraid you are sorely mistaken

How can anyone with such a NEGATIVE attitude as to the POTENTIAL of science sites like this be taken seriously as a supposed MODERATOR at such a science site.

Don't you realize, prometheus, that in the OLDEN DAYS it was the COFFEE HOUSES and other 'club venues' etc which were the MELTING POT OF IDEAS and DISCOURSE which allowed the cross-polination between disciplines/ideas such that there were SYNERGIES which would result in LATER advances ELSEWHERE in the lab and or in the minds of those who were present/involved and further afield?

That is the purpose of scientific discourse. To see what comes out of discussing things INFORMALLY. Heavy handed and biased/prejudicial censoring will only create a self-fulfilling prophesy that nothing will come of it.

There IS science being done, even if you don't realize it because you have already made up your mind otherwise! Open your mind and actually look carefully at some of the discourse and OP's and see that they are no different in type and import than the very things discussed in the coffe houses etc of old by the greatest minds of their day....even if they were not YET recognized as such in their day.

BE POSITIVE about science discourse IN ALL ITS FORMS and VENUES, not negative like that, mate.

Anyhow, nothing personal (really) in all this; it's just that someone has to make a stand when it gets too ridiculous for words and the trolls are the good guys and the genuine discoursers are the bad guys in your eyes/actions.

Just be loose and be fair. Take the time/care to do it right or leave it alone for someone who has the time/care it deserves.

I trust all this has been cathartic and constructive to the science discourse potential of this site and others across the internet.

Regards and no hard feelings,

From your friend in Science and Humanity, RealtyCheck.

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[Syne]

I think this fellow has been humored more than enough by now.

 

[RealityCheck]

I think this fellow has been humored more than enough by now.

Says one of the 'usual suspects' TROLLS who uses the mods to get threads closed as now highlighted.

Are you now going to troll here and so use the mods again to close this thread too? Too transparent, troll.

And you "think"? Trolls "think"? Evolution in action!

Now the question is: how far along your present evolutionary trajectory before you develop ethics, principles and scruples?

 

[quadraphonics]

Sometimes it is necessary to 'capitalize' things because it seems otherwise people who should be paying attention MISS THINGS which are under their noses if it is not MADE OBVIOUS to them.

Dude, use bold and/or italics for emphasis. That's what they're for. There's an explicit rule against SHOUTING in the forum post rules and guidelines.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I think this fellow has been humored more than enough by now.

why do you think that?
when it appears blatanty clear that reality check has legitimate complaint.
Come to think on it...why did you post your short, patronising and unsupported comments?
"One thing you have not realised is that we Aussies have been super sensitive to being bullshitted to, since the English Lords drove our soldiers to their deaths at Anzac Cove... WW1...."
aint that right Mate?

 

[Syne]

why do you think that?

Because it is never ending with this fellow. He appears to have an infinite capacity for playing the victim and taking no responsibility for his own actions. But if you are eager to read many more pages of the same just keep encouraging it. I, for one, will not read repetitive complaints from someone completely inconsolable.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Because it is never ending with this fellow. He appears to have an infinite capacity for playing the victim and taking no responsibility for his own actions. But if you are eager to read many more pages of the same just keep encouraging it. I, for one, will not read repetitive complaints from someone completely inconsolable.

and why do you feel he is repeatedly seeking a solution for his complaints?
Is it possibly becaue like me he feels sciforums future is worth the effort?
That like me patronising attitudes by some moderators and posters are antagonising?

 

[Randwolf]

I've been watching this unfold from the sidelines and felt compelled to throw my two cents in.

What I DON'T expect is you coming in and INTIMIDATING potential respondents with UNJUSTIFIED actions under the 'cover' of 'mod'. OK?

RC, you have the biggest chip on your shoulder of any poster I've ever encountered here. If you would calm down and stop shouting, people might be a little more receptive to your input. As it is, you are coming across like a two year old and totally invalidating any credibility that you may otherwise have gained.

The moderators here are not perfect, no one is. Including you. Take off the blinders and look at your conduct objectively. I have no axe to grind one way or the other, but the powers that be have been more patient with your antics than I have ever before seen. Are you even open at all to the concept that you are doing yourself a disservice by your actions and creating self fulfilling prophecies? Has that even crossed your mind?

Again, my hat is off to the staff in this conflict for the patience they have shown. It's now bordering on the ridiculous though. Take a deep breath and relax, RC.

If that fails, try valium. You really need a reality check. Just my take on the situation, mate...

 

[rpenner]

"One thing you have not realised is that we Aussies have been super sensitive to being bullshitted to, since the English Lords drove our soldiers to their deaths at Anzac Cove... WW1...."

Actually, in my experience, those that originate from Queensland (Ken Ham for one) are not immune from spouting bullshit. The Australian is also a great publisher of bullshit, aimed mostly at Australians. So I don't think this is an argument (smacking of incindery nationalism) that RealityCheck wants to adopt.

 

[RealityCheck]

Dude, use bold and/or italics for emphasis. That's what they're for. There's an explicit rule against SHOUTING in the forum post rules and guidelines.

I do on occasion. But when it is required often in one post (because it seems necessary to get the proper attention from an otherwise biased/skimming 'reader'), I resort to capitals just because it's less 'clunky' than the bold etc []. I and others have explained that CAPITALS don't necessarily imply 'shouting'. It's just easier and it seems to get the attention necessary so that certain readers don't keep coming back as if they NEVER SAW or READ what was posted. That is what happens when just bold etc is used. So there are convenience and necessity reasons for capitalizing as I do.

I hope you weren't offended. It was not my intention at all, mate!

In any case, I will try to do less capitalizing from now on.....since this latest episode has drawn attention to the problems faced, I may not need to keep capitalizing things because everyone concerned may be paying more proper attention in future because of all this to-do. Hey!

Cheers!

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[RealityCheck]

Because it is never ending with this fellow. He appears to have an infinite capacity for playing the victim and taking no responsibility for his own actions. But if you are eager to read many more pages of the same just keep encouraging it. I, for one, will not read repetitive complaints from someone completely inconsolable.

Hyperbole and generalizations from a troll? Surely not!

Mate, the 'infinite capacity' here is for your trolling and trying to paint the victim based on your biased opinion only. What's new?

I took responsibility, hence this and other posts pointing to where you and your troll friends and certain mods fail to take responsibility for your own actions.

Who is inconsolable? The right thing and people doing the right job instead of trolling and adding to the problem is all that is required to console anyone here.

Ever thought of that? The right thing? Proper job? Not trolling? No? Well that's just you all over, isn't it? So don't try your "I for one..." pretense to higher moral ground. It is transparent and won't work as you intended.

Cheers troll!

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[Quantum Quack]

I've been watching this unfold from the sidelines and felt compelled to throw my two cents in.



RC, you have the biggest chip on your shoulder of any poster I've ever encountered here. If you would calm down and stop shouting, people might be a little more receptive to your input. As it is, you are coming across like a two year old and totally invalidating any credibility that you may otherwise have gained.

The moderators here are not perfect, no one is. Including you. Take off the blinders and look at your conduct objectively. I have no axe to grind one way or the other, but the powers that be have been more patient with your antics than I have ever before seen. Are you even open at all to the concept that you are doing yourself a disservice by your actions and creating self fulfilling prophecies? Has that even crossed your mind?

Again, my hat is off to the staff in this conflict for the patience they have shown. It's now bordering on the ridiculous though. Take a deep breath and relax, RC.

If that fails, try valium. You really need a reality check. Just my take on the situation, mate...

There is no doubt a situation of frustration occuring on all sides.
Can I ask you now that you have posted what you feel is the reason for signifcant decline in sciforums membership?

 

[Quantum Quack]

At that time, I believe, there was an orchestrated attempt by some moderators and members who had infiltrated sciforums from JREF forums to destroy the popularity of this forum. The posting behaviour and word use was incrediby transparent. But most importantly their strategy to have members banned was effectively standard proceedure at JREF at the time.
They would deliberately bate a poster into breaking the forum rules then report the offending poster to the board moderator. Glaucon I believe was aware of this especially after someone had used his username on a couple of occassions to post comments that would flame the entire board. [false representation of Glaucon]
I believe knowing Glaucon to be a person of extraordinary intellect, integrity and honor was placed in a very difficult and invidious position, one that ultimately left no recourse.
The posters from JREF sought to destroy the popularity of sciforums especially anything that would suggest "freethinking" or "contraversy" to their own belief systems. Destruction of credibility being their main skill learned as part of an "unofficial" and "uncondoned" JREF strategy.
Hard posting evidence to support the above claim is available if seriously required both from JREF and sciforums archives and screen shots taken at the time, but it will take an awful lot of work to dig it all up. [JREF Forum is not beyond being infiltrated either I might add]
The reason I returned to Sciforums after a long absence was because it appeared those extremely malicious behaviours had subsided however some fall out still remains and this is in part why I started this thread. I would hope one day that Glaucon and a few other major contributors may see a way to returning to sciforums and again offer their "brilliance" for the benefit of the community as they did.
If I am able to be proved wrong in the above assessment I apologise with out reseveration...

"Have you ever heard someone use the word "necromancy" in a philosophical context before?" as Glaucon did on one occasssion that I am aware of.

I also note that no one has commented on this post I made regarding the sudden departure of highly respected members of the board.
Human resource management [HRM] is also a science I might add based on hard statistical data and material evidence.

 

[RealityCheck]

I've been watching this unfold from the sidelines and felt compelled to throw my two cents in.



RC, you have the biggest chip on your shoulder of any poster I've ever encountered here. If you would calm down and stop shouting, people might be a little more receptive to your input. As it is, you are coming across like a two year old and totally invalidating any credibility that you may otherwise have gained.

The moderators here are not perfect, no one is. Including you. Take off the blinders and look at your conduct objectively. I have no axe to grind one way or the other, but the powers that be have been more patient with your antics than I have ever before seen. Are you even open at all to the concept that you are doing yourself a disservice by your actions and creating self fulfilling prophecies? Has that even crossed your mind?

Again, my hat is off to the staff in this conflict for the patience they have shown. It's now bordering on the ridiculous though. Take a deep breath and relax, RC.

If that fails, try valium. You really need a reality check. Just my take on the situation, mate...

HI Randwolf, pleased to meet ya!

With respect, mate, but your post contents and opinions may be based on only a partial picture. What has transpired here in this thread is only the tip of the iceberg.

Unless you are fully aware of all the facts from the original thread, to the follow-up complint thread and then to this thread, you wil be basing your judgement on partial information.

And that very thing is at the root of most of what the complaint is about the mods involved in this particular episode.

The time/care necessary BEFORE (sorry but it had to be done) making mod decisions were not applied properly, and so the thread was closed unjustifiably.


The trolls won and the OP/thread aborted. That is not the way to moderate. That is just closing and rewarding the trolls whose intent and tactics was to have thread/discussions closed down irrespective of science/merit.

So perhaps you will forgive the frustration and the 'capitals' when the system is not working except to satisfy the troll agenda? The instances are sufficient proof of that agenda and pattern, sometimes wittingly/unwittingly contributed to by the mods themselves.

I have already stated that the job is difficult and I appreciate their efforts. But when it gets beyond a certain point one either speaks up and respects the facts and the moderators enough to ay it as it is and let the remedies begin. Else we as a community will stagnate into irrelevancy and the trolls will have won.

That's a short story version. For the fuller picture you will need to appraise yourself of all the surrounding facts/context from across more than the relevant discussion in this thread.

Thanks for your interest and well meaning advice though, mate! Appreciated.

Cheers!

.

 

[Trippy]

I do on occasion. But when it is required often in one post (because it seems necessary to get the proper attention from an otherwise biased/skimming 'reader'), I resort to capitals just because it's less 'clunky' than the bold etc [].

Are you on a Mac? Are you using a Apple Safari?

If not, while typing, hold down the ctrl key, then press 'b' and see what happens.

I and others have explained that CAPITALS don't necessarily imply 'shouting'. It's just easier and it seems to get the attention necessary so that certain readers don't keep coming back as if they NEVER SAW or READ what was posted.

You are a relative new-comer. You do not set the rules of the forum. You learn the rules of this forum and adopt your posting style to it. If someone who is an old hand at this forum, and has been around for as long as the forum has (or nearly so) tells you that other posters on this forum are going to interpret words written in all-caps as shouting, then you adapt your writing style accordingly.

Personally, I find your excessive use of capatilization irritating at a level I can not communicate, and detracting from the message you're trying to communicate. Perhaps if others are criticising aspects of your posting style, rather than getting in a huff over it, maybe you should stop and consider what they have to say. Personally, I find that you abuse all-caps so much that they loose their overall effectivness, and I just stop reading your post part way throught it because of how much they annoy me.

How the rest of the internet interprets all-caps

Why all caps is a bad idea

That is what happens when just bold etc is used. So there are convenience and necessity reasons for capitalizing as I do.

And yet your caps-lock abuse has precisely this effect.

 

[RealityCheck]

"One thing you have not realised is that we Aussies have been super sensitive to being bullshitted to, since the English Lords drove our soldiers to their deaths at Anzac Cove... WW1...."

Actually, in my experience, those that originate from Queensland (Ken Ham for one) are not immune from spouting bullshit. The Australian is also a great publisher of bullshit, aimed mostly at Australians. So I don't think this is an argument (smacking of incindery nationalism) that RealityCheck wants to adopt.

Hi guys.

Quantum Quack: I know why you alluded to that about 'aversion to bullshit' etc. It's probably true and the Aussie psyche has grown with that as part of it, but I don't think I would go so far as to say that is what drives the present reaction to what has happened with the trolls and the mods. The trolls and mods actions speak for themselves and do not require 'subtexts' for any proper assessment of same against the stadards of fairness and proper moderation. But thanks anyway, mate!

rpenner: You're right,, I don't hold grudges (you know that by now). Less still would I let such 'historical considerations' affect my observation of the facts in hand on their own merits. They are enough to be going on with, without bringing old politics and class/colonialism grudges into it, hey! Thanks for reading me right on that score, rpenner.

Cathartic? I trust so, for all our sakes and the sake of the forum in future!

Cheers guys!

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[R1D2]

Thanks Tripppy,
Your links were helpfull to me as well...

 

[Quantum Quack]

Actually, in my experience, those that originate from Queensland (Ken Ham for one) are not immune from spouting bullshit. The Australian is also a great publisher of bullshit, aimed mostly at Australians. So I don't think this is an argument (smacking of incindery nationalism) that RealityCheck wants to adopt.

Ha fair contra...just wanted to say something like:
"You can fool some of the people most of the time but not all of the people all of the time" sort of thing or similar.

 

[RealityCheck]

Are you on a Mac? Are you using a Apple Safari?

If not, while typing, hold down the ctrl key, then press 'b' and see what happens.


You are a relative new-comer. You do not set the rules of the forum. You learn the rules of this forum and adopt your posting style to it. If someone who is an old hand at this forum, and has been around for as long as the forum has (or nearly so) tells you that other posters on this forum are going to interpret words written in all-caps as shouting, then you adapt your writing style accordingly.

Personally, I find your excessive use of capatilization irritating at a level I can not communicate, and detracting from the message you're trying to communicate. Perhaps if others are criticising aspects of your posting style, rather than getting in a huff over it, maybe you should stop and consider what they have to say. Personally, I find that you abuse all-caps so much that they loose their overall effectivness, and I just stop reading your post part way throught it because of how much they annoy me.

How the rest of the internet interprets all-caps

Why all caps is a bad idea


And yet your caps-lock abuse has precisely this effect.

True. I have been 'capitalizing' too much. The other poster has pointed that out and I agreed with him. I agree with you also. I will try to stop that habit arising from frustration.

Thanks for the advice, Trippy, everyone!

Will comply!

Cheers!



PS: Sorry I cannot divulge details as to computer hardware/software etc, but I have a strict policy of not divulging such information. No offense implied. Just policy of longstanding with me. You understand. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to post that info though, Trippy. Much appreciated all round.
.

 

[Quantum Quack]

True. I have been 'capitalizing' too much. The other poster has pointed that out and I agreed with him. I agree with you also. I will try to stop that habit arising from frustration.

Thanks for the advice, Trippy, everyone!

Will comply!

Cheers!

and we will ensure you hold to your word eh what?