London riots: Violence erupts for third day

[CptBork]

It just brings out the conspiracy theorist in me, everything that is going on these days seems to be by design. Nothing has happened by accident since the 60s.

I don't think it's much of a conspiracy. It's about dealing with short-term interests at the expense of long-term interests. Immigration has and can be of great benefit to the recipient countries if the immigrants are enthusiastic about participating in their new societies, but I don't like the idea of bringing in foreign labour to fill the cheap jobs so that their kids grow up alienated and disillusioned.

As far as the riots themselves are concerned, it sounds like the initial incident is worth investigating, to determine whether the victim was indeed an armed drug-dealing thug resisting arrest. The riots, looting, assaults and vandalism are a completely unacceptable response, and they destroy the victim's family's efforts to seek justice through a proper investigation.

Whatever the outcome, and whatever changes to Britain's social structure ensue, I believe the class warfare problems will persist until the overpopulation issue is addressed. We all have to pass tests in order to acquire licenses to operate a motor vehicle on public roads, yet we are subjected to no such standards when it comes to bringing children into this world, even if some people are clearly incapable of raising their children to participate in a civil society. The social problems around the world will continue indefinitely as long as bad parents are permitted to have children.

 

[phlogistician]

I think it was at this march that a 16 yr old girl approached a police line asking for answers and she was just beaten down.

Got any source for that because I haven't heard that reported ANYWHERE.

Simply, the rioting has very little to do with the gangsta that pulled a gun on armed Police. The family of said gangsta were pretty stupid thinking they were going to get answers the next day, there is a process to follow.

Anyway, opportunists have seized this chance to go steal stuff. A guy got shot dead in Croydon amongst all this, hardly the behaviour of grief stricken youth, to go murder someone else, is it?

 

[phlogistician]

Luckily though there hasn't been much violence, no one has been killed.

Wrong I'm afraid:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14462693

There are plans for major riots in alot of other cities tomorrow and tbh, I can't see how the police can deal with it.

Well, personally, I've cleaned my bolt action .22 The police can organise Ambulances for any chavs I put down.

 

[quadraphonics]

I think you are giving them too much credit.

Who is "them," exactly?

While certainly, the "underclass" in the UK have a lot to be angry about, this has blossomed past their plight. Looting is often a symptom of poverty. However what we are seeing now is should not be solely attributed to poverty. There is a violent element at play here and I suspect the ones doing it are not the ones living in these communities.

Of course there will be many opportunists taking advantage of any cracks in the social contract and public order. To write off the larger phenomenon on the basis of said bad apples is to miss the point - the opportunists alone aren't numerous or powerful enough to cause these sorts of breakdowns on their own.

And it isn't as if your average slum-dweller isn't perfectly well aware that such costs are incurred by upheaval, and that they too have a stake in order. That's exactly why they allow the privileged classes to drive them so close to the brink in the first place. That they're apparently willing to suffer the depredations of their seedier neighbors, than continue under the jackboot of the cops so the privileged classes can have their cake and eat it too, is exactly the political point, here. They aren't fools who'd do that lightly. They know better than anyone how vulnerable they (and everyone, but them most of all) are to criminals.

What I will say is that their plight will now be overshadowed by the actions of those who deliberately set out to harm others and are using this as a cover.

Why?

Because privileged reactionaries are just that - looking for any pretext to write off the underlying social issues and employ state violence to backstop their privilege?

Maybe so. But that's something to be lamented - and maybe, hopefully, resisted - rather than blithely accepted. If poverty and classism are the actual problems here, then that's what has to be dealt with. Using the army to bonk the underclass over the head isn't going to put any genies back into any bottles. It's just going to make the UK resemble Marx's criticisms of it even more than it already does.

An important general principle is that power comes with responsibility. It's the empowered and privileged that have the most duty to resist emotion and temptation and see clearly and act bravely to address problems - while the underclass has the least such duty. We've heard that riots are unacceptable but what, exactly, would you have them do? Sit down and shut up?

 

[Gustav]

let this be a cautionary note to all those that feed the machine and are enemies of the working man

 

[CptBork]

An important general principle is that power comes with responsibility. It's the empowered and privileged that have the most duty to resist emotion and temptation and see clearly and act bravely to address problems - while the underclass has the least such duty. We've heard that riots are unacceptable but what, exactly, would you have them do? Sit down and shut up?

Have there been mass protests of a more peaceful nature amongst the people involved in these riots? Have they made efforts to elect politicians who will voice their concerns and take responsibility for their actions? Britain's in a financial crisis and has no choice but to cut its government spending until it can actually afford to pay for what it spends- not the best time for a rage mob to start smashing other peoples' shit and killing people.

Regardless of the social injustices it faces, Britain also has a lot of unsavoury elements in its society who love to exploit opportunities of this sort to wage violence, as Bells notes. When peaceful, democratic methods of opposition exist, there is absolutely no excuse for resorting to violence.

 

[Anti-Flag]

Would have posted sooner but I've been setting up my new laptop....

 

[Captain Kremmen]

let this be a cautionary note to all those that feed the machine and are enemies of the working man

So you are against the use of water cannons, coshes and riot gas?

 

[quadraphonics]

Have there been mass protests of a more peaceful nature amongst the people involved in these riots? Have they made efforts to elect politicians who will voice their concerns and take responsibility for their actions?

Do the cops there try "peaceful means" before gunning down the slum-dwellers execution-style? Why is the onus always on the underclass to be restrained and high-minded, but not on the system of authority that actually has the power and responsibility to behave in the way you demand?

It's a bit ugly, the way so many here are falling all over themselves to delegitimize social unrest and portray the poor in Britain as evil thugs who deserve to be repressed through violence.

Britain's in a financial crisis and has no choice but to cut its government spending until it can actually afford to pay for what it spends- not the best time for a rage mob to start smashing other peoples' shit and killing people.

Not the best time for whom? For the power elite and bourgeoisie who'd like to go about deciding exactly how hard to fuck the poor in the ass over this budget stuff with a minimum of interference and push-back, sure. But maybe not so much for the people doing the actual rioting. Might well be exactly the best time for such, from their perspective.

Regardless of the social injustices it faces, Britain also has a lot of unsavoury elements in its society who love to exploit opportunities of this sort to wage violence, as Bells notes.

And also a lot of unsavory elements in its society who love to exploit the opportunities afforded by the system of class and authority for similarly narrow, selfish ends. Hence the situation, which is in no way "regardless" of social injustices.

It kind of surprises me to see so many here going in for this same basic reactionary line of thiking: "criminals exist, therefor the underclass must be held down, or some criminals might profit from the upheaval." It's a blatantly reactionary, bourgeois attitude. It's ironic in that it exemplifies exactly the sort of opportunistic selfishness it claims to despise in the poor - only difference is that it sees state violence as an ally to its interests.

When peaceful, democratic methods of opposition exist, there is absolutely no excuse for resorting to violence.

Begs the question of whether said methods are actually effective, when it comes to addressing the issues in question. It doesn't seem a crazy presumption that they are not - or we wouldn't be at this point. It isn't as if the lower classes in Britain are slugs who don't understand democracy or haven't tried this stuff, or don't appreciate the costs of upheaval. Again, the insistence on portraying the underclass as a barbarian horde - uncivilized and so rightly repressed with state violence - is apparent and puzzling.

And let's note, again, that the violence that actually sparked this was committed by the authorities.

 

[Gustav]

So you are against the use of water cannons, coshes and riot gas?

not at all
if the tools of repression are directed towards capitalist edifices....well, i am ok with that

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you are giving them too much credit.

While certainly, the "underclass" in the UK have a lot to be angry about, this has blossomed past their plight. Looting is often a symptom of poverty. However what we are seeing now is should not be solely attributed to poverty. There is a violent element at play here and I suspect the ones doing it are not the ones living in these communities.

We have all seen this image plastered in the media:

This incredible image, posted by James Robinson on Twitter, shows a woman jumping from a burning building in Surrey Street, as the flames take hold.

Our reporter Gareth Davies, who has been at the scene throughout tonight's riots, has also told how residents and police were helping people jump to safety from homes near Reeves Corner, by breaking their falls with matresses and other materials.

[Source]
​

It paints a very disturbing image.

I am not disagreeing with you that poverty is a driving force in this. The Guardian had a brilliant piece which provides a lot of insight into how this is a release of pent up rage over the plight of the poverty stricken areas of the UK.. What I will say is that their plight will now be overshadowed by the actions of those who deliberately set out to harm others and are using this as a cover. To some, it's all a bit of fun.

Unemployment and poverty can give rise to a lot of resentment - idle hands, etc

The guardian has an interactive map for those tracking the riots in London

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-incident-map

Regardless of the social injustices it faces, Britain also has a lot of unsavoury elements in its society who love to exploit opportunities of this sort to wage violence, as Bells notes. When peaceful, democratic methods of opposition exist, there is absolutely no excuse for resorting to violence.

Like the peaceful demonstration which started off these riots - after a guy was shot by the cops? This is one reason I am glad the cops in India don't carry firearms.

 

[CptBork]

Unemployment and poverty can give rise to a lot of resentment - idle hands, etc

Yeah and on BBC I've been hearing testimonies from locals who weren't very pleased with having their struggling neighbourhoods turning into warzones. This is not a productive way for them to protest their plight, and the damage makes their situation even worse. If police were going around beating down on peaceful protesters, votes weren't being counted and the courts refused to hear their pleas for assistance, there comes a point where one has to use force to defend themselves. Britain is lightyears away from reaching that point- if that's the status in Britain, where the average citizen has one of the highest living standards in the world, then that also means most of the world is completely, entirely screwed for quality governance and doomed to mass civil wars.

Like the peaceful demonstration which started off these riots - after a guy was shot by the cops? This is one reason I am glad the cops in India don't carry firearms.

Well as I understand it, the police were allegedly conducting a drug bust, they were shot at and killed Mark Duggan. Then Mark Duggan's family staged a ~200 participant march the next day demanding justice, and some of the locals chose to use that march as an opportunity to instigate the riots. I have not heard anything about police opening fire on peaceful demonstrations, which would certainly make violence seem more attractive. How does a mass riot create the atmosphere for a proper investigation of the facts? Do we need another Rodney King to come out and tell the rioters how stupid they are for what they're doing?

 

[S.A.M.]

There is no evidence that Mark Duggan opened fire.

London riots: IPCC says 'no evidence' Mark Duggan opened fire
Rachel Cerfontyne, from the Independent Police Complaints Commission, has confirmed there was no evidence that Mr Duggan fired at officers before he was shot in the chest.[

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...says-no-evidence-Mark-Duggan-opened-fire.html

The riot is believed to have grown out of a peaceful vigil in the London neighborhood of Tottenham for the death of Mark Duggan that quickly spiraled out of control. London's Metropolitan Police declined to answer questions posed by ABC News about what exactly occurred the night Duggan was gunned down, but an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission revealed today that when Duggan was killed, he likely had never fired on police.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/mark-duggan-man-sparked-london-riots/story?id=14264320

Basically: brutal tactics backfire

How does a mass riot create the atmosphere for a proper investigation of the facts?

It doesn't. Its a reaction. After the Mumbai riots, most people swore they would never let it happen again because it is the poor who suffer the most, losing their daily wages and making their area known for violence and hence a poor risk for investment and business. Bombay has yet to recover from the effects of those riots on its credibility as a safe place to live and work.

 

[spidergoat]

To be fair, there are legitimate reasons to shoot someone even if the police are not actually shot at themselves. For instance, if the guy simply pointed the gun at officers.

 

[quadraphonics]

If police were going around beating down on peaceful protesters, votes weren't being counted and the courts refused to hear their pleas for assistance, there comes a point where one has to use force to defend themselves.

And what of the tyrranny of the majority? What if you have a perfectly functional democratic system, in which the consensus power is "fuck this particular marginalized group of people; we don't care about them."

What's the incentive for that group to stick to the whole social contract, then, exactly? Principled respect for the ideal of democratic governance and the rule of law? How many children does that feed?

Well as I understand it, the police were allegedly conducting a drug bust, they were shot at and killed Mark Duggan.

There is, as yet, no evidence to support the (highly convenient for the authorities) "shot at" assertion.

It's claimed that he was in possession of a starting pistol. As in, the type used at track and field meets to signal the starts of races.

How does a mass riot create the atmosphere for a proper investigation of the facts?

It isn't the responsibility of the underclass to 'create the atmostphere' for the authorities to do their jobs properly. It's the responsibility of the authorities to do their jobs properly - and most strenuously so in cases where the 'atmosphere' is dangerous and negative. The cops owe their power to the consent of the masses, not the other way around - something they tend to like to forget absent the occasional object lesson, it seems.

Do we need another Rodney King to come out and tell the rioters how stupid they are for what they're doing?

It should be noted that the stupidity in question there was the underclasses turning on one another, rather than waging war as such. Note that King pointedly embraced the "war" and "battle" metaphors in exactly the quote you're referring to. Which is to say it's not like anybody wouldn't prefer a well-organized activist movement with sufficient discipline to avoid various of these pitfalls. But the upshot is that we're past that point, and you go to war with the army you have, not the army you'd like to have, etc. You sure you picked the right side?

Also note that LA is viciously segregated in order to facilitate exactly such an outcome (both the poor-on-poor violence, and the leaving-the-poor-to-rot-in-silence precursor) - the bourgeoisie live far, far away in places like Thousand Oaks and Orange County. Not sure how England compares in that sense.

 

[Ghost_007]

FACT! When I heard that London was awarded the 2012 Olympics the very first thing I did was turn to a friend and ask him what odds he would give me that they never took place.
He looked puzzled -- but didn't offer me odds.
It has come as no surprise to me that London's experiment in multiracial multiculturalism has reached meltdown.
I just hope the British Olympic Association has an insurance policy that covers the Games not taking place. I shouldn't want the British taxpayer to pick up the tab for refunding all the tickets.

In the long run, the solution to England's problems lies in sterilisation or deportation.
Unless the English pull themselves together soon it may be they who face elimination.

Wtf has this got to do with multiculturalism? Please don't try and turn this into a race issue. There have been Black, White, Asians and others involved too. It is not even an issue.

To be fair, there are legitimate reasons to shoot someone even if the police are not actually shot at themselves. For instance, if the guy simply pointed the gun at officers.

Initially I believe the police stated that Duggan did shoot at them, that was a lie and just a massive cover-up.

However the rioting now up and down the country has nothing to do with that shooting.

Tonight there is trouble in Manchester, Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

 

[Ghost_007]

Got any source for that because I haven't heard that reported ANYWHERE.

Simply, the rioting has very little to do with the gangsta that pulled a gun on armed Police. The family of said gangsta were pretty stupid thinking they were going to get answers the next day, there is a process to follow.

Anyway, opportunists have seized this chance to go steal stuff. A guy got shot dead in Croydon amongst all this, hardly the behaviour of grief stricken youth, to go murder someone else, is it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPIq9tOoHLM&

From 4:55 mins. Eye-witness.

 

[S.A.M.]

To be fair, there are legitimate reasons to shoot someone even if the police are not actually shot at themselves. For instance, if the guy simply pointed the gun at officers.

This is what I could find about the incident

According to an account provided by the IPCC, Duggan was a passenger in a minicab when the cab was stopped Thursday evening by submachine gun-toting officers from Scotland Yard's Operation Trident -- a special operation "dealing with gun crime among black communities, in particular drug-related shootings."

What happened next is unclear due to conflicting reports by the IPCC and London-based media, which only have basic facts in common: multiple shots were fired, at least one bullet was lodged in a police radio worn by one of the officers and when it was over, Duggan was dead.

One witness, quoted in the London Evening Standard, said that police shot Duggan dead as he lay on the ground.

"About three or four police officers had both men pinned on the ground at gunpoint. They were really big guns and then I heard four loud shots. The police shot him on the floor," the witness said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/mark-duggan-man-sparked-london-riots/story?id=14264320

It would be interesting to know why they stopped the cab and who else was in it. But as it stands, Duggan did not shoot at the cops and was shot and killed. The riots were then sparked off a vigil held for his death when a 16 year old girl who threw a rock at the police was beaten

Eyewitnesses tell UK newspapers that the originally peaceful protests in turned violent after a 16 year girl threw a rock or some other object at the police. The police then responded with a force of 15 police officers who beat the girl on the ground with their shields

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/20...london-riot-violence-spreads-2nd-night-51391/

Video of beating at above link

After that the crowd just went out of control

Seems to me, the investigations should start with the lack of restraint shown by law enforcement officials

 

[quadraphonics]

Wtf has this got to do with multiculturalism? Please don't try and turn this into a race issue. There have been Black, White, Asians and others involved too. It is not even an issue.

Yeah, this has "class" written all over it - unsurprising in a place like Britain, of course.

Not that race/multiculturalism are unrelated to class, but I agree that there is little fruit in casting the conflict in those terms here. Plenty of white rioters in the photos I've been seeing.

 

[Ghost_007]

Yeah, this has "class" written all over it - unsurprising in a place like Britain, of course.

Not that race/multiculturalism are unrelated to class, but I agree that there is little fruit in casting the conflict in those terms here. Plenty of white rioters in the photos I've been seeing.

There is a real danger that this could snowball into something much worse than what we have now.

Youngsters just seem completely out of control. After the London rioting people from up north and other places were passing texts saying how they would better the riots in London. Alot of copycat attacks. It is going to be very hard to control. There have been outbursts of violence in places half way up the country, for no apparent reason.

Right now i've heard there are thousands of youth out in the streets of Manchester.

The police will not be able to deal with mobility of the rioters. There is no method to their madness, it is random and chaotic. All they can do is try and close off city centres, and this will just push the rioters to other areas. There was a massive fire at a Sony distribution centre last night.

Right now the whole country feels unsafe, as silly as that sounds. I never thought I would see anything like this.