Star Wars vs Star Trek

[antaran_1979]

According to a few posts from not long back, the Jedi's power of the force in the darkside and perhaps Palpatine alone according to some books etc would be enough to wipe out any and all star destroyers ever. Grand Admiral Thrawn apparently has access to these powers as well correct? In an effort to continue the peaceful star wars universe, The darkside would do anything they can to destroy whatever sees to it that their empire is kept intact. Palpatine would obliverate any and all federation class ships. Force always wins by your logic alone.

Therefore, if as you say the rules dictate that star wars is capable of using force powers, such as palpatines, Star Wars wins.

However, if you declare that they are not able to use such force power, then you would have to change your rules to allow it so that Star Treck can win and that the force is not able to destroy such things as they really are able to destroy.

Doing so, Star Treck would undoubtedly win due to the size and power that Star Treck Ships have.

the problems arise from the obvious contradictions that come from the sources. as you said so your self, some force users in some books can pretty much sit on their ass in the most distant part of the universe and whipe out entire armadas. yet these would make bad movies (duh) and plot lines, so the movies make force users far les powerful, hence the need for fleet armies and story deveopement. i understand pro SW debaters when they try to cling to these situations of uber power, since that is the only thing they got. but ask your self what ocurances hold more weight to you, the movies, or some other source?

 

[antaran_1979]

Correct. Rules for one galaxy collide with another. If a fed ship can't handle an astroid in Star Treck, but a Milenium Falcon can in Star Wars, then the rules should apply to both REASONABLY.

Duh.

i can't remember an asteroid colission in ST at the moment...
howevwe i do remember an ISD taking the hit...and blowing up

 

[Kittamaru]

Dude, half of it is not ancient history.
1. Superlasers are seen not just in the DS (For example: Darksaber )
2. Sun Crusher is destroyed over 10 years ABY
3. Centerpoint is destroyed about 40 ABY
4. The Celestials are not dead, they disappeared from the plot
5. Superweapons powered by the dark side of the force can be build again because of the sith holocrons and perhaps the meditation sphere

As for the Sun Crusher, the scientists survived.

We didn't use ancient weapons that is destroyed more than 50 years ago.

1) Movies override sub-cannon... the movies dictate the DS had more firepower than half the galactic FLEET according to an OFFICER... thus no other ship ha a superlaser. The Executioner had a coaxial semi-super laser... but it wasn't AS strong.

2) I dont' care when it was destroyed, it's gone. Period. And so is the ONLY facility that was used to build it.

3) Again, doesn't matter - it's happened. And neither 2 OR 3 was in the movies... pick your battles carefully...

4) Thus, they're dead. Otherwise, we can assume a race like thte ones that built the Dyson Sphere and the DDD are alive simply because we never see PROOF they are gone... see the probleM?

5) Maybe, but we'd need SOME sort of proof the blueprints are still around.

 

[Kittamaru]

first of all, the future was clouded by the unlimited power of a sith Lord.
he kept the army hidden fro the Jedi ffs.
second with powerfull Jedi i ment Jedimasters or Sith masters like Lord Vador or Darth Sidius and Joda.
they would allways be a step forward of anything ST tried. They wouldn't even have to be onboard. Vader used the choke on a officer on another ship.

So you're saying now a single sith lord can literally BEND REALITY so other Jedi cannot detect their intentions?

Great... then why was he so easily killed by a half-dead Vader?

 

[Uchiha Madara]

I didn't say they had NO slaves. They look DOWN upon slavery, eg only BAD GUYS do it... duh?

And again, point out where I'm being hipocratic and I'll either make amends or show you my point of view.

I have to agree. The Sith controlled Star Wars is very twisted. Read Republic Commando series and you will find out more about the dark secrets of the GAR from Kal Skirata and the Republic Commandos point of view. It isn't the Jedi's fault,even SO Brigade's director Zey have no idea what covert troopers do and he is in charge of them. It is all Republic Intel's and the nice man Palpatine's fault. Vader is pretty soft for a Sith, at least to Storm and clone troopers. Skywalker chose clones over the Republic loyal citizens at the Battle of Jambrim.

 

[Uchiha Madara]

Yes, it was. Thatt part is called the BRIDGE tower.

No, only a part of the bridge got chipped, I am still with that.

 

[antaran_1979]

euh the scimitar is build by a guy who "cloned for replacing picard *hmmm moral*" was trown in mines why normally would not survive "hmmm moral" with the rest of a ENSLAVED species

so what did you mean Startrek has no slaves ????? right back at ya

Kittamaru I respect you in this thread. You've often have responded at my questions. And I am a fan of Startrek too.
But i get pissed at some thing being allright for startrek because they have said it onscreen but because they didn't in SW that same thing won't count in SW

for instance wouldn't be logic to say that A isd has inertial Stabilizing.??????
the deathstar can fucking move in hyperspace. so does any Wars vessel.

ahem hello? ST has as much evil in it as SW. if we consider factions then there are good guys and bad guys in both universes.
now for the inertial stabilisers, i think SW has them, since they probably need them to go to hyperspace. however their ships are still sluggish. especially the larger ones. clear on screen facts. blame Lucas for that one.

 

[antaran_1979]

Can you please show me where?

i'm a fan of the X-Wing, Tie Fighter and X-Wing VS Tie Fighter games. the ion canons there need to penetrate the shields (eighter by themselves or by using other weapons) in order to start disabling systems. yet in the other sources (movies too) they seam to ignore the shields alltogether?

 

[Uchiha Madara]

the problems arise from the obvious contradictions that come from the sources. as you said so your self, some force users in some books can pretty much sit on their ass in the most distant part of the universe and whipe out entire armadas. yet these would make bad movies (duh) and plot lines, so the movies make force users far les powerful, hence the need for fleet armies and story deveopement. i understand pro SW debaters when they try to cling to these situations of uber power, since that is the only thing they got. but ask your self what ocurances hold more weight to you, the movies, or some other source?

Not all Jedi are powerful as Palpatine, Yoda, and Skywalker. 3 Jedi MASTERS got annilated by Palpatine in under a minute in the Revenge of the Sith, and the Jedi temple is wiped out by the 501st ( and mainly Vader ). Some Jedi and awesome while some is not as good. Palpatine rarely use the Force to help the Empire, even Tarkin doesn't know Palpatine is a force user. It is like everything else, some is good some is not so good.

 

[Uchiha Madara]

i can't remember an asteroid colission in ST at the moment...
howevwe i do remember an ISD taking the hit...and blowing up

The ISD didn't blow up, a part of the bridge got chipped off.

 

[antaran_1979]

I think not. That person is saying, it is hard so he can't do it.

but Red Lider's torpedo missed the target, so that person's saying was not far from the truth. he missed a static target of what could easelly be a called shot with a preprogrammed trajectory. and the computer missed. even back in the 80s-90s we've had better targetting computers.

 

[antaran_1979]

A novel, and a comic.

too bad, i was hoping of watching it online

 

[antaran_1979]

Well, humans can make mistakes can't we?

but we\ve all seen the movies. that tower on that ISD is clearly MIA.

 

[antaran_1979]

I don't prefer it though. It wouldn't be much fun if everyone just hide it out, because there will be no war if everyone hides.

i don't like it eighter. it would be like mice vs mice game

 

[Kittamaru]

well that doesn't say much for the trek shields does it.
and i quote "a smaller ship with NO SHIELDS ramming a larget target."
so a un shielded vessel can penetrate a much larger vessels shields and just ram halfway through the disk ???? wanna see that same asteroid hit this larger vessel then. It would take out the bridge just as easily.

We really don't know why the Ent-E was able to penetrate the Scimitar's shields... and it's something that bugs me to no end. In EVERY OTHER movie / episode, shields block physical objects... including a large piece of a Valdore class Warbird in Nemesis earlier in the movie. It's... strange. My only explanation is that MAYBE the Warp Field was able to penetrate the Scimitar's shields... but that makes no sense at all... it's like, why was Data able to launch out of the Ent-E and grab the Scimitar? *shrugs* I don't know tbh. It IS possible Scimitar dropped his shields awaiting Picard's surrender (Picard DID say "He thinks he knows exactly what I'm going to do") so... I dont' know... it's plausible *shrugs* The Ent-E was all but dead in the water.

To add to the problem, here's some proof:

The Crystaline Entity could not consume or even touch the Ent-D without bringing down the shields.

Proof of the strength of Trek shields - the Delta Flyer RAMS between two other vessels at high warp speed and they bounce away from the Flyer. And that's a VERY small ship with a much smaller warp core.

The Nemesis event : http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWstnemram.html#TNE

Further proof of the Strength of trek shields:

The Jenolan is used to brace open the doors of the impenetrable Dyson Sphere. Quite a feat for a ship how many years old and barely still operational... *shrugs*

 

[Kittamaru]

No, only a part of the bridge got chipped, I am still with that.

Dude... did you look at the picture?

There is NOTHING SOLID there because you can see LIGHTS thru the dust cloud. If there was a bridge there, you wouldn't be able to see the stars in the background nor the lights of the SSD behind it!

 

[antaran_1979]

If you are talking about Order 66, it was cheap. They aren't expecting them to betray the Jedi, it happened suddenly. They never even knew about the 66th contingency order probably. If you are talking about Geonosis, it was cheap too they got heavily out numbered and the arena is too small.

i know it was cheap, but all over the movies, jedi are shown as being not the best choice for pitched battles. even Qui Gon and Obi Wan would have had their butts on a plate by 2 droidekas. true the droidekas are amongst the more feared techs in SW but think about it. they can be build in greater numbers then jedi can be trained. and one on one, they are allmost a match.

 

[Kittamaru]

i know it was cheap, but all over the movies, jedi are shown as being not the best choice for pitched battles. even Qui Gon and Obi Wan would have had their butts on a plate by 2 droidekas. true the droidekas are amongst the more feared techs in SW but think about it. they can be build in greater numbers then jedi can be trained. and one on one, they are allmost a match.

Not only that, but if the Jedi have such a strong sense of Precognition, why couldn't they know Order 66 was coming?

Or are only the SITH pre-cognitive? Which makes NO sense.

 

[antaran_1979]

first of all, the future was clouded by the unlimited power of a sith Lord.
he kept the army hidden fro the Jedi ffs.
second with powerfull Jedi i ment Jedimasters or Sith masters like Lord Vador or Darth Sidius and Joda.
they would allways be a step forward of anything ST tried. They wouldn't even have to be onboard. Vader used the choke on a officer on another ship.

but that person was not shooting at him

 

[Uchiha Madara]

1) Movies override sub-cannon... the movies dictate the DS had more firepower than half the galactic FLEET according to an OFFICER... thus no other ship ha a superlaser. The Executioner had a coaxial semi-super laser... but it wasn't AS strong.

Solo was a former officer, now he is a deserter. Don't tell me you never heard of exaggerations, military understatement, exclamations and classified info that Solo was not privileged of

2) I dont' care when it was destroyed, it's gone. Period. And so is the ONLY facility that was used to build it.

The scientist survived, if the scientists can do it once, they can do it again. Plus they can use KDY or Mon Cal shipyards to try again

3) Again, doesn't matter - it's happened. And neither 2 OR 3 was in the movies... pick your battles carefully...

So? It happened after the movies. We never see the words DC-15 on the blaster rifles used by the clone troopers it is still the BlasTech DC-15

4) Thus, they're dead. Otherwise, we can assume a race like thte ones that built the Dyson Sphere and the DDD are alive simply because we never see PROOF they are gone... see the probleM?

Yes I do, that is why they can never rebuild it unless they find out how the Celestrials did it. Sun Crusher is a different story. Plus it is not ancient history, so it can be used.

5) Maybe, but we'd need SOME sort of proof the blueprints are still around.
See number 2

In dark red.