Why is the USA pussy whipped by Israel?

[CptBork]

Nope it wasn't. There is no evidence of any violence against Jews during the nakba. No records in the Haganah either.

Now I can really smell your BS. Well tata, gotta move on for now. Don't blow a fuse gettin' yourself all worked up or nothin' while you wait, I'll be back for more later.

 

[S.A.M.]

They didn't. The state was already formed by those who had already been living there prior to the arrival of these immigrants.

No it wasn't. The state was declared by Ben Gurion who was an European immigrant.

All I see your source talking about is how arabs fled in the face of Israeli military actions, i.e. pushing arab armies out of the area. I'd like to see further context from the original document to show that indeed it was intended to drive the Palestinians out by force, and that they were to be massacred if they chose to stay behind. If you read the whole document, I doubt you'll find this context. It's like how people take select quotes from the Quran to damn all of islam, even if the context is in hot dispute.

Read Ben Morris expose of the Haganah documents.

Or Norman Finkelsteins "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestinian Conflict"

Here is Ben Morris in his own words, bemoaning that all the Palestinians were not wiped out.

Or Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, also based on source material from the Israeli archives



Details of the expulsion with references for the following quote

There is ample evidence of forcible expulsions. The most notorious was the Lydda/Ramle death march. On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to the Economist newspaper in London. Many of the expelled died in the 100-degree heat during the trek.[4]

Eventually the refugees from Lydda and Ramle made their way to refugee camps near Ramallah. Count Folke Bernadotte, Swedish nobleman and United Nations mediator, attempted to offer aid. He later wrote that "I have made the acquaintance of a great many refugee camps, but never have I seen a more ghastly sight than that which met my eyes here at Ramallah." (Later that year, Bernadotte was murdered by the Stern Gang. One of its leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, became Israeli Prime Minister in 1983.)[5]

Forcible expulsions were commonly practiced by the Jewish/Israeli military during 1948: Qisariya on February 15; Arab Zahrat al-Dumayri, al-Rama and Khirbat al-Sarkas in April; al-Ghabisiya, Danna, Najd and Zarnuqa the next month; Jaba, Ein Ghazal and Ijzim on July 24; and al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad on October 31, among many others. Israeli historian Benny Morris has identified 34 Arab communities whose inhabitants were ousted. We may never know the full extent of the ejections, though, because, as Morris notes, the Israeli Defense Forces Archive "has a standing policy guideline not to open material explicitly describing expulsions and atrocities."[6]

More often, though, the instruments of expulsion were the terrorizing and demoralization of the Arab population. Jewish military forces used several tactics in pursuit of these goals.

One was psychological warfare. Radio broadcasts in Arabic warned of traitors in the Arabs' midst, spread fears of disease, reported confusion and terror among the Arabs, described the Palestinians as having been deserted by their leaders, and accused Arab militias of committing crimes against Arab civilians.[7]

Another effective psywar tactic involved the use of loudspeaker trucks. At various times they urged the Palestinians to flee before they were all killed, warned that the Jews were using poison gas and atomic weapons, or played recorded "horror sounds"--shrieks, moans, the wail of sirens and the clang of fire-alarm bells.[8]

A second tactic, economic warfare, was a favorite of Ben-Gurion, who described "the strategic objective" of the Jewish forces to be "to destroy the [Arab] urban communities." "Deprived of transportation, food, and raw materials," he later noted with satisfaction, "the urban communities underwent a process of disintegration, chaos, and hunger."[9]

A third technique to induce Arab flight was military attack on a town's Arab population. These assaults often used Davidka mortars--horribly inaccurate, but useful for creating terror--and barrel bombs. The latter consisted of barrels, casks, and metal drums filled with a mixture of explosives and fuel oil. Rolled into the Arab section of a town, they created "an inferno of raging flames and endless explosions." Another destructive maneuver described by writer Arthur Koestler was the "ruthless dynamiting of block after block" of the Arab community.[10]

Not uncommonly, the Jewish forces resorted to simple terrorism. Sometimes this took the form of bombs planted in vehicles or buildings: 30 killed in Jaffa on Jan. 4., 1948, with a truck bomb; 20 killed the next day when the Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed; 17 killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem two days later.[11]

More often, a Jewish military force entered an Arab village and massacred civilians, either during a night raid or after the seizure of the village. The massacres started early: Major General R. Dare Wilson, who served with the British troops trying to keep peace in Palestine before the end of the British Mandate, reported that on Dec. 18, 1947, the Haganah murdered 10, mostly women and children, in the Arab village of al-Khisas with grenades and machine gun fire. Wilson also described how on Dec. 31 the Haganah slaughtered another 14, again mostly women and children, again using machine guns and throwing grenades into occupied homes, this time in Balad Esh-Sheikh.[12]

Throughout 1948, the massacres continued: 60 at Sa'sa' on Feb. 15; 100 murdered in Acre after its May 18 seizure by the Haganah; several hundred at Lydda on July 12, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque; 100 at Dawayma on Oct. 29, with an Israeli eye-witness reporting that "the children were killed by smashing their skulls with clubs"; 13 young men mowed down by machine guns in open fields outside Eilabun on Oct. 30; another 70 young men blindfolded and shot to death, one after another, at Safsaf the same day; 12 killed at Majd al-Kurum, also on Oct. 30, with a Belgian U.N. observer writing that "there is no doubt about these murders"; an unknown number killed the next day at al-Bi'na and Deir al-Assad, described by a U.N. official as "wanton slaying without provocation"; 14 "liquidated," according to the Israeli military's report, at Khirbet al-Wa'ra as-Sauda on Nov. 2.[13]

A particularly repugnant method of killing employed by the Jewish militias was the blowing up of houses with their occupants still inside, often at night. The militia would place explosive charges around the stone houses, drench the wooden window and door frames with gasoline, and then open fire, simultaneously dynamiting and burning the sleeping inhabitants to death.[14]

The supreme act of terrorism by Jewish militias was the slaughter of nearly the entire village of Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948. According to Jacques de Reynier, a Swiss physician working for the Red Cross who arrived before the bloodletting had ended, 254 people were "deliberately massacred in cold blood." "All I could think of," he later said, "was the SS troops I had seen in Athens." According to Meir Pa'il, who served as a communications officer for the Haganah in Deir Yassin and was present during the assault, 25 male survivors were taken to Jerusalem and paraded through the streets in a perverse victory celebration, then shot in cold blood.[15]

 

[S.A.M.]

Now I can really smell your BS. Well tata, gotta move on for now. Don't blow a fuse gettin' yourself all worked up or nothin' while you wait, I'll be back for more later.

Correction, there is no evidence of violence against Jews during the nakba from Israeli sources. The other sources have yet to be explored.

 

[CptBork]

Well I had some time to get some supper and take a breather, now I'm back because this is just too irresistible...

Correction, there is no evidence of violence against Jews during the nakba from Israeli sources. The other sources have yet to be explored.

Before I continue, are you prepared to stake the validity of your claims on this statement of yours? If I show you 1, 2, maybe 10 Israeli sources for such evidence, are you prepared to admit that your other points stand on equally shaky ground? If so, then I just want to make sure that by Nakba you include events prior to Israel's declaration of independence, otherwise you'll just weasel out of this and tell me you were talking about what happened after Israel had already won the war.

So how about it? I'm ready to rip your claims from noted dissident academics Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris to shreds by showing quotes where they directly (and effectively) criticize and annihilate each others' work, but before I do that, are you prepared to stake the integrity of your arguments on what you said above?

 

[S.A.M.]

Well I had some time to get some supper and take a breather, now I'm back because this is just too irresistible...



Before I continue, are you prepared to stake the validity of your claims on this statement of yours? If I show you 1, 2, maybe 10 Israeli sources for such evidence, are you prepared to admit that your other points stand on equally shaky ground? If so, then I just want to make sure that by Nakba you include events prior to Israel's declaration of independence, otherwise you'll just weasel out of this and tell me you were talking about what happened after Israel had already won the war.

So how about it? I'm ready to rip your claims from noted dissident academics Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris to shreds by showing quotes where they directly (and effectively) criticize and annihilate each others' work, but before I do that, are you prepared to stake the integrity of your arguments on what you said above?

Go ahead, lets see how the Palestinians were attacking the Jews while they were being annihilated wholesale by their terrorism during the nakba. I'm always interested in fresh viewpoints.

 

[CptBork]

Go ahead, lets see how the Palestinians were attacking the Jews while they were being annihilated wholesale by their terrorism during the nakba. I'm always interested in fresh viewpoints.

And by Palestinians, do you include any arabs in the region in general, or are you going to tell me that Egyptians, Jordanians etc. don't count? In your original post you just said massacres against jews, without citing a specific people.

 

[S.A.M.]

And by Palestinians, do you include any arabs in the region in general, or are you going to tell me that Egyptians, Jordanians etc. don't count?

I'm talking about Palestinians, the people who own the 70% of Israel and 40% of settler occupied Palestine. The guys who were driven out, raped, shot in the head, bombed in their houses, picked up and thrown bodily outside the 1948 lines by the Jewish terrorists.

 

[CptBork]

I'm talking about Palestinians, the people who own the 70% of Israel and 40% of settler occupied Palestine. The guys who were driven out, raped, shot in the head, bombed in their houses, picked up and thrown bodily outside the 1948 lines by the Jewish terrorists.

How can any of the people you mention here commit a massacre, if they're busy fleeing and being raped? Do you not include arab massacres committed by arab armies on what is today Israeli soil, acting on behalf of the Palestinians? How about massacres by arabs living on what is now Israeli soil who were there prior to 1948?

 

[CptBork]

So my friend, what's it gonna be? I've got all my sources lined up, just waiting for your call.

 

[S.A.M.]

How can any of the people you mention here commit a massacre, if they're busy fleeing and being raped? Do you not include arab massacres committed by arab armies on what is today Israeli soil, acting on behalf of the Palestinians? How about massacres by arabs living on what is now Israeli soil who were there prior to 1948?

I defined the Palestinians, the ones who are still kept in ghettos on a "diet" as the Israelis please. I'm not interested in outside parties. Show me where the nakba, where 700,000 Palestinians were driven away, and countless numbers raped, bombed and shot in the head, all their property and possessions stripped from them, was accompanied by violence to the Jewish immigrants who wanted to create a Jewish state on their homes and land (and did). From all Haganah records, over 400,000 were dispossessed before a single Arab army came in, between November 1947 and May 1948.

 

[CptBork]

Oh, really? The Haganah did all that before the arab armies even showed up? And yet I've read from other sources that the Haganah's leaders were shocked just to find out ~120 people were killed at Deir Yassin (it was attacked because it was used to garrison arab troops who were attacking jewish settlements), and they sent King Abdullah of Jordan an immediate apology even as the war was still ongoing. Maybe it's a complete fabrication, but I have good sources for this, just as you have sources for your claims.

i.e. check out this Israeli website, along with the references it provides:
http://www.daat.co.il/daat/english/history/lapidot/24.htm

You rely a great deal on Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris, two dissident Israeli academics, and their supposed studies of the actual records. Yet I will shortly provide you with quotes where they actively seek to discredit each others' work, which would by extension completely discredit you.

Now, before we get to all that, you said you would stake the validity of your claims on your statement that there is no Israeli source documenting violence by Palestinians against the jews during the Nakba (a foolish assertion, I might add). It's difficult to say when it was a "Palestinian" and when it was an arab from another country, because noone keeps precise stats on that, however I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that riots and other acts by local arab villagers, whether initiated or not by foreign arab armies, count as acts of violence by the Palestinian community. Doubtless you will try and wiggle yourself out of your self-contradiction, but we'll leave the reader to judge whether you're successful. Remember, all you asked for is Israeli sources, so that's specifically what I searched for and what you'll get. These aren't Elvis UFO conspiracy theory folks writing whatever they want on their webpages, these are popular jewish and Israeli researchers putting their support behind the Israeli cause. So let the games begin:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Dunx_i1P6fMC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=arab+massacres+of+jews&source=web&ots=uo-qyxGccz&sig=0g3zCHuM74LnDivhcEfM0Bq65h0&hl=en#PPA75,M1
http://www.zionism-israel.com/Palestine_Massacre_riots_of_1929.htm
http://www.zionism-israel.com/his/Israel_timeline_1948_1967.htm
http://middleeastfacts.com/weblog/israel/arab-massacres-of-jews-before-1948/

Now since you love to drop giant quote bombs here with pages and pages of rambling vitriol, I'm going to quote just the first few claims from the very last weblink, and let anyone who's interested check out these links themselves or do their own searches. No need to repeat everything here when they need only make a simple mouse click to see it.

December 1947 - Small kibbutzim were subjected to attacks - Gvulot, Ben-Shemen, Holon, Safed, Bat Yam and Kfar Yavetz. Sixty-two Jews were murdered by Arabs around Palestine.

December 30, 1947 - 39 Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa’s oil refinery

January 16, 1948 - 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion

February 22, 1948 - 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem’s Rehov Ben-Yehuda

February 29, 1948 - 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry.

January and February 1948 - Rishon Lezion, Yehiam, Mishmar Hayarden, Tirat Zvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein Hanatziv, Magdiel, Mitzpe Hagalil and Ma’anit were all subjected to attacks. Arab attackers also bombedThe Palestine Post
April 13, 1948 - 35 Jew were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre

Ok so what now, my friend? What are you going to say to back yourself out of this one? I'm sure you'll at least make some effort to change our agreed-upon rules, I'm just curious to see how you plan to do it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you have any non-Zionist sources? Because apart from the Haganah documents of 1948 which were written for internal consumption, I don't trust Zionist tales of woe, considering how many of them have turned up as lies over the years. I believe the British held Jabotinsky responsible for 1920 and 1929 riots

 

[CptBork]

Also notice how it was a jewish newspaper that called itself "The Palestine Post"? That's now known as the Jerusalem Post today, see http://www.jerusalempost.com. The Palestine Times was another jewish newspaper. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence that prior to 1948, the only people calling that land Palestine were the jews. The Palestinians today share no connection to the Phillistines of the bible, because the Phillistines were of Greek decent, not arab. So when did these people start calling themselves Palestinians, instead of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians? Sources?

Now I'm not trying to deligitimize the Palestinian people, but it must be remarked that prior to 1948, they did not have a united national identity of any sort. Many of them were themselves immigrants to the land (which was barely inhabited by anyone in the 19th century), and there was a competition between Jordan, Syria and Egypt to see who would get to rule over the territory. Add to that Karl Marx himself stating Jerusalem was 66% jewish by his own count back in the 1850's. Here's the link: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm

Pretty damning stuff for someone trying to demonize the Israelis and jews as savage, unprovoked colonial beasts, don't you think?

 

[S.A.M.]

Also notice how it was a jewish newspaper that called itself "The Palestine Post"? That's now known as the Jerusalem Post today, see http://www.jerusalempost.com. The Palestine Times was another jewish newspaper. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence that prior to 1948, the only people calling that land Palestine were the jews. The Palestinians today share no connection to the Phillistines of the bible, because the Phillistines were of Greek decent, not arab. So when did these people start calling themselves Palestinians, instead of Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians? Sources?

Now I'm not trying to deligitimize the Palestinian people, but it must be remarked that prior to 1948, they did not have a united national identity of any sort. Many of them were themselves immigrants to the land (which was barely inhabited by anyone in the 19th century), and there was a competition between Jordan, Syria and Egypt to see who would get to rule over the territory. Add to that Karl Marx himself stating Jerusalem was 66% jewish by his own count back in the 1850's. Here's the link: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm

Pretty damning stuff for someone trying to demonize the Israelis and jews as savage, unprovoked colonial beasts, don't you think?

Hmm have you seen the paper in 1911 called Falastin?

It was an Arabic Palestinian paper.

And genetic studies have proved that Palestinians are closer to the Lebanese and Palestinian Jews than to Arabs. So that puts paid to any Zionist conspiracy theory on mass immigration. Truth will out, eh?

How did Karl Marx assess the Jewish density of population? Did he count the kippahs?

 

[CptBork]

Do you have any non-Zionist sources? Because apart from the Haganah documents of 1948 which were written for internal consumption, I don't trust Zionist tales of woe, considering how many of them have turned up as lies over the years. I believe the British held Jabotinsky responsible for 1920 and 1929 riots

Are you not aware of how many Palestinian claims have already been thoroughly debunked, yet they continually resurface time and time again? Is it not shocking that a century after British historians proved that "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was a Russian forgery copied from slanderous texts about other ethnic groups, that many pro-Palestinians are still waving this trash around?

Anyone with a brain would be skeptical of an Israeli source supporting the official Israeli viewpoint. That's why you need to look into things in detail. The sources I provided link to external sources, which themselves can be verified/debunked. Regardless, I don't need to provide you with any "non-Zionist" sources, because you specifically mentioned you wanted Israeli sources. We can always come back to this topic later and I can just as easily find you neutral sources to back these claims up, but I won't bother doing the work until I see you're actually going to learn and accept something from it.

Now you say you're thoroughly skeptical of pro-Israel sources making pro-Israel claims and sharing Israeli tales of woe; by what means do you justify your trust in pro-Palestinian sources making pro-Palestinian claims? It obviously can't be that good, because I'm still getting ready for the big finale where I smash the claims of two of your favourite dissident Israeli historians.

 

[CptBork]

How did Karl Marx assess the Jewish density of population? Did he count the kippahs?

Good question. From the looks of it, it comes from Ottoman census data.

 

[S.A.M.]

Are you not aware of how many Palestinian claims have already been thoroughly debunked, yet they continually resurface time and time again? Is it not shocking that a century after British historians proved that "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was a Russian forgery copied from slanderous texts about other ethnic groups, that many pro-Palestinians are still waving this trash around?

Anyone with a brain would be skeptical of an Israeli source supporting the official Israeli viewpoint. That's why you need to look into things in detail. The sources I provided link to external sources, which themselves can be verified/debunked. Regardless, I don't need to provide you with any "non-Zionist" sources, because you specifically mentioned you wanted Israeli sources. We can always come back to this topic later and I can just as easily find you neutral sources to back these claims up, but I won't bother doing the work until I see you're actually going to learn and accept something from it.

Now you say you're thoroughly skeptical of pro-Israel sources making pro-Israel claims and sharing Israeli tales of woe; by what means do you justify your trust in pro-Palestinian sources making pro-Palestinian claims? It obviously can't be that good, because I'm still getting ready for the big finale where I smash the claims of two of your favourite dissident Israeli historians.

I'm not skeptical of all Israeli sources, merely Zionist ones [although, to be nitpicky, Ben Morris is also a Zionist source, just one who believes the genocide was justified in the aim of an Eretz Israel]. However, the Haganah document was a military document that kept a note of all the villages destroyed and all the methods advised (short of officially calling for genocide). One would have to be comatose to consider them anything but military documents, especially since the IDF has a policy to keep classified the worst of them still. Which means, what they have declassified in the 1980s is the least of the atrocities.

 

[CptBork]

I'm not skeptical of all Israeli sources, merely Zionist ones [although, to be nitpicky, Ben Morris is also a Zionist source, just one who believes the genocide was justified in the aim of an Eretz Israel]. However, the Haganah document was a military document that kept a note of all the villages destroyed and all the methods advised (short of officially calling for genocide). One would have to be comatose to consider them anything but military documents, especially since the IDF has a policy to keep classified the worst of them still. Which means, what they have declassified in the 1980s is the least of the atrocities.

You keep referring to this Haganah document, yet I still haven't seen it in its full context. Even if the quote is reliable, there are plenty of quotes used to slander the Quran which are taken completely out of context as well. Furthermore, you don't actually have a source for this supposed document and its claims apart from what you read in the works of Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris, correct?

 

[S.A.M.]

You keep referring to this Haganah document, yet I still haven't seen it in its full context. Even if the quote is reliable, there are plenty of quotes used to slander the Quran which are taken completely out of context as well. Furthermore, you don't actually have a source for this supposed document and its claims apart from what you read in the works of Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris, correct?

I've given you links to some of the historians who have referenced them ie Morris, 1987, 1999, 2004; Pappe, 2004; Shlaim, 1996; Flapan, 1987; Simons, 1988. Perhaps you could convince the IDF to publish them online or tell me how one can misconstrue genocide.

 

[CptBork]

Genocide? In a Palestinian population that has grown six-fold since 1948? And don't give me none of that crap about keeping a close and careful count as if I was supporting an upcoming extermination; you're the one keeping such a close tally on how many Palestinians got displaced. Indeed how can you miscontrue genocide? Populations disappear when genocide occurs, not multiply six-fold.

And you know full well I couldn't get the IDF to do a darned thing for me anymore than you could. You are relying on secondary sources, and those secondary sources are about to be tossed in the trash as soon as I get around to posting the relevant materials.