So typical of today's generation, "We can't wait, we want it now".
What happens after nirvana, liberation, perfection?
- Thread starter VitalOne
- Start date
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
I never studied what Krishna said. Even the Buddha's texts aren't that accessible to the layman. I prefer the Chinese or Japanese Zen Buddhists, more direct, less religious baggage.
RoyLennigan
Registered Senior Member
What is an epiphany but a small dosage of enlightenment.
I think you are wrong... slightly.
You get all the hos.
I agree and disagree. I agree that speculation is useless, so much more knowledge is gained by simply concentrating on true knowlege rather than speculating...
But I also disagree, these people (Gautama Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, etc...) obviously have experienced these things...
Kuervo Rugama
Registered Member
Being attatched to a "code" or the attainment of nirvana is a hindrance to the process. Your still feuling your ego by thinking ur going to accomplish something thats going to make everything better. Accept life is suffering and expect nothing else. When joyous moments come your way enjoy, but grasping too tightly will only drive you in the other direction once the moment flees. I don't think you reach Nirvana and are finally finished. I think u continue on the middle path, staying centered, untill we die and finally enter nirvana. We can't understand what we are like after nirvana because humans always project themeselves in2 any void they percieve. Nirvana is the end of rebirth. The scripture is a guide to get there, but not the actual territory u must traverse.
In a way I agree, and in another way I disagree. You should detach from all things, but however after attainment of nirvana how can attachment exist?
Also what you talk about, enjoying some moments, and suffering at other moments, this is not the highest perfection, this is not nirvana, this is not the awakening, this is suppression of deep-rooted feelings. Suppression is not the way. The true nirvana, the true attainment, the true awakening is enjoying every infinitismal moment, if you are not truly, on every level enjoying every moment then you haven't achieved the most difficult accomplishment, you are living in suffering....this is what I've found to be true in my own personal search for the truth....
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
Well i dont want to get into 'my spirituality trumps your spirituality' its not really a competion, as i said its entirely relative to what you choose to take from it.
I mean, post-nirvana you still have to pay the bills and deal with - stomach aches, and heavy traffic. I guess you can learn to approach these things differently and with more serenity. But nirvana in itself (for me at least) doesnt solve the core problem of being human.
Its like if an ant suddely experienced his consciousness beyond that of an ant and become the whole for a brief while - yes it would blow the ant's mind but hed still have to get on with the business of being an ant.
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
Yep, attainment of nirvana will ultimatley just lead you down another series of blind alleys if you become obsessed with re-experiencing it.
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Well i dont want to get into 'my spirituality trumps your spirituality' its not really a competion, as i said its entirely relative to what you choose to take from it.
I mean, post-nirvana you still have to pay the bills and deal with - stomach aches, and heavy traffic. I guess you can learn to approach these things differently and with more serenity. But nirvana in itself (for me at least) doesnt solve the core problem of being human.
Its like if an ant suddely experienced his consciousness beyond that of an ant and become the whole for a brief while - yes it would blow the ant's mind but hed still have to get on with the business of being an ant.
Well you may still have to pay bills and go through heavy traffic, but it won't feel bad, its difficult to explain until you experience it. You'll be able to freely do whatever you desire, you'll have the real freedom because the source of suffering is gone forever. So you could change all those bad situations easily and instantaneously.....
Also I am not really a fan of serenity, goodness, deep-relaxation and things like that....they're all in the mode of goodness, just another aspect of material energy, eventually I became disgusted by these things, only enjoying the true happiness, not the "suppression hippie deep relaxation lets all pretend we're happy and be good" type of happiness, the one where in reality you really truly are happy.....
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
hmm are you saying post-nirvana type experience you never get angry/upset/pissedoff/disallusioned?
Right...nirvana is the "greatest bliss" as Gautama described it....it is the complete removal of the source of suffering (desperation, craving, attachment), therefore how can you become fearful, angry, upset, doubtful, etc....if the actual cause of all of these things is completely gone?
You will finally be free, free at last, enjoying what you had always been seeking, what you always desired all your life, this is what I call the true purpose of life.....
Unconsciously (or unknowingly) everyone is seeking this freedom, this manifests itself as desires like money for instance, people see money as the solution to all their problems, the freedom from suffering, so they become attracted to it, however in reality the source of suffering has no external cause...after the attainment of money problems will continue to arise, things will go wrong, you will still be able to become angry, fearful, sorrowful, etc....but after the attainment of the highest perfection how can these things exist?
its not an idle isolated reference
SB 3.29.13: A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation — sālokya, sārṣṭi, sāmīpya, sārūpya or ekatva — even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
SB 9.4.67: My devotees, who are always satisfied to be engaged in My loving service, are not interested even in the four principles of liberation [sālokya, sārūpya, sāmīpya and sārṣṭi] (sanskrit - sālokya-ādi-catuṣṭayam — the four different types of liberation (sālokya, sārūpya, sāmīpya and sārṣṭi, what to speak of sāyujya), although these are automatically achieved by their service. What then is to be said of such perishable happiness as elevation to the higher planetary systems?
as evidenced above. such a notion of liberation has 5 or at least 4 categories, according to perspective
the answer lies in the verses that surround the one you quoted, namely
BG 12.1: Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?
BG 12.2: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.
and
BG 12.5: For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.
in other words why does krishna declare such a path as more difficult?
heliocentric
Registered Senior Member
Well nirvana is just an altered state of consciousness as i see it, its not really something you have to be 'spirtual' to attain.
Given the correct circumstances anyone can have these types of experiences, they seem to be fundamentally hard-wired into us.
The 'freedom from attainment' aspect of it (if that's your bag) is really more a intergrated life philosophy. Im pretty sure the nirvana experience has never been offered up as an all-in-one solution to lifes problems - although i may be wrong, im not 'that' familiar with buddism really, more taoism.
Do you really just 'never' have a bad thought/bad day atall though? im not trying to infer that you dont, i just find it incredibly suprisingly when people claim that theyre free from all suffering.
yeah apparently nothing atall and your dead thats it. you dont exist.
alot of buddhists believe you get to be in complete heaven, but if your ego is gone and your desires are gone then you wont want anything and you will be void of existence
you wont exist if it all goes!, you wont go to heaven you will be erased.
thats why me and buddhism dont get along because i dont actually want that, i like living and i like the "eternal struggle cycle" wich is actualy quite enjoyable to me . bunch of buddhist pussies trying to escape the universe with there tails between there legs.
i talk to quite a few buddhists on a regular basis at the shaolin temple, me and the abbot always have a good old debate about existence, my daoist philosophy always kicks his zen ass,
buddhists are cool they are probably the nicest "group/type" of people i have ever come across in this world. but i dont like nirvana i like actualy doing stuff and not bieng non existent, my goal is to convert the abbot so he wont escape and he has to come back and start all over again.
convert a buddhist today! dont let the bastards escape.
peace.
alot of buddhists believe you get to be in complete heaven, but if your ego is gone and your desires are gone then you wont want anything and you will be void of existence
you wont exist if it all goes!, you wont go to heaven you will be erased.
thats why me and buddhism dont get along because i dont actually want that, i like living and i like the "eternal struggle cycle" wich is actualy quite enjoyable to me . bunch of buddhist pussies trying to escape the universe with there tails between there legs.
i talk to quite a few buddhists on a regular basis at the shaolin temple, me and the abbot always have a good old debate about existence, my daoist philosophy always kicks his zen ass,
buddhists are cool they are probably the nicest "group/type" of people i have ever come across in this world. but i dont like nirvana i like actualy doing stuff and not bieng non existent, my goal is to convert the abbot so he wont escape and he has to come back and start all over again.
convert a buddhist today! dont let the bastards escape.
peace.I was not aware of these liberations, they are not mentioned in the BG, or in really any other places, but you are right, devotees will not be interested in these, doesn't really change anything though....
This kind of reminds me of early Buddhist schools who claim that through devotion and other means you can achieve pure eternal abodes, and from their achieve nirvana..
Right but the point is that achieving Krishna's nature is still possible by other means besides devotion, Krishna considers devotion to be the best way...lightgigantic said:
I haven't gone a day without having negative thoughts, however I have experienced that different true happiness, difficult to describe.....
But this contradicts the views of Gautama Buddha and others...they do not describe it as the void...which is just like deep sleep, rather they describe it as an experience outside of all concievable experience....I am guessing it is like infinity itself...yeah apparently nothing atall and your dead thats it. you dont exist.
thats why me and buddhism dont get along because i dont actually want that, i like living and i like the "eternal struggle cycle" wich is actualy quite enjoyable to me . bunch of buddhist pussies trying to escape the universe with there tails between there legs.
i talk to quite a few buddhists on a regular basis at the shaolin temple, me and the abbot always have a good old debate about existence, my daoist philosophy always kicks his zen ass,
buddhists are cool they are probably the nicest "group/type" of people i have ever come across in this world. but i dont like nirvana i like actualy doing stuff and not bieng non existent, my goal is to convert the abbot so he wont escape and he has to come back and start all over again.
convert a buddhist today! dont let the bastards escape.
to stop suffering you have to accept death and be happy about pain, and realise it will happen to everyone, we all feel pain,
basically be happy for everything and stop caring about anything bad, you will suffer if you care about badness,
if you see everything as good you will never suffer, but you will feel pain still, but you have to love the pain, and embrace it, if you never want to suffer again you have to view everything as good and part of the world, realise everything happens and you cant stop certain things,
acceptance is key.
haha,
peace.
basically be happy for everything and stop caring about anything bad, you will suffer if you care about badness,
if you see everything as good you will never suffer, but you will feel pain still, but you have to love the pain, and embrace it, if you never want to suffer again you have to view everything as good and part of the world, realise everything happens and you cant stop certain things,
acceptance is key.
haha,
peace.