What is the difference between Allopathy, Homeopathy and Ayurvedic medicens?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by plakhapate, Feb 6, 2008.

  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    that wasnt aimed at you my friend

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    It was aimed to take a specific example (using your post as a starting ground) and asking Dr. Nancy Malik to prove how her medication (water) would be more effective than using the westen treatment (iron) for treating a known condition rather than pudling around with principles

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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  5. kmguru Staff Member

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    The fact that chemicals at microgram level has an effect on human body - i.e. they do interact with the body chemical processes could be the answer to homeopathy. However, "the shaking" business is a puzzle. Does the single active molecule suddenly collects additional electrons or sheds electrons - Billy may answer that. Or, like protein folds, does the active chemical, hypercin or whatever somehow fold with water molecules to do something....???

    We need electron microscope to see what happens....
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Unles some Ionizing radiation has just passed thru the water, I think free electrons would be extremely rare < 10/cc.

    H2O not only forms short chains of various length but can disassociate into positive protons, +, and hydroxyl radicals, -OH. If I remember correctly the pH of pure water is 7 where pH is the negative log of the hydrogen ion (proton) concentration. I think that 7 means that in pure water the percent that is protons is 10^-7. By logic and assuming that is correctly remembered, then when you add some thing to water that also liberates protons , for example H2SO4, the there will be more free protons. If 100 times more, then the concentration would climb top 10^-5 and the pH would be 5. (I can never remember if less than 7 is an acidic or a base, but working it out from the definition is easy and hopefully correct here.)

    I assume that a few of the xH2O chains do tend to have a net positive charge, a proton, weakly bound on the "head of the chain." i.e. the leading O ion has an extra proton bound to it for a total of 3, on rare occasions.

    Thanks for question about possible "folding of water." It provoked the following thoughts:

    I do not know if it actually happens but if x is great enough, as water is polar (for reasons explained in my prior post) I would also suppose that there could briefly be bent chains that close on themselves to form very small loops or circles. Never have heard / read of this, but it does seem possible. As they would be self-stressed by the curvature there is probably a minimum x for this to be possible and they would break with collisions more easily that the open ended chain of the same x value, I would think.

    If I were to search experimentally for evidence of these “tiny water donuts,” it would be in water at about 1 degree C or less. Perhaps a careful study of the scattering or absorption of sound would show a slight inflection in the value (of absorption or scattering coefficients) as a function of sound wave length nears a wavelength that resonates with the smallest possible closed loop? Also interesting to think about is possible enhancement of the “anti-stokes” line in laser scattering from water subject to strong sound waves with wave lengths in this region. Perhaps something resembling NMR (now called MRI, as the word “nuclear” in the original name, scared people) could be used to observe these tiny donuts. Perhaps even just very careful measurement of the AC dielectric constant as a function of frequency would show their effect. The nice thing about all of these attempts is the effect, if any is observed should weaken as the temperature is increased and these tiny donuts are destroyed by collisions.

    I never though about these tiny water donuts before. I wonder if anyone has looked for them? Some one good at searching, please try.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2008
  8. Dr. Nancy Malik Medical Doctor Registered Senior Member

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    your view of succussion is right.

    I don't know of alchol but water has memory and stores the knowledge. How water stores it, you can have it at
    http://www.infiniteconferencing.com/Events/nch/051607nch/051607nch.html.

    I admire that you consider water as much more than collection of water moloecules because most skeptics don't understand that water is a very complex in its structure.
     
  9. Dr. Nancy Malik Medical Doctor Registered Senior Member

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    Homeopathy is equally effective, if not better, in anemia as allopathy. We have medicines like Ferrum phos, Ferrum mettalica, Silicea, apart from many others, to treat the condition
     
  10. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    really point out a cohrain paper that says that and i will apologise

    Until that point homopathics should be in psudoscience or parapsycology because it has NO scientific merit.

    Water has NO effect in replacing lost iron or heamoglobin. The ONLY thing homopathics can treat is dehydration and even THAT doesnt work if it severe dehydration requires salts and glucose to be readjusted as well.
     
  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I am currently at a Delaware beach resort and internet connection is poor. This link seem always to stop on chart 11, To that point he states nothing false and has made me realize that there can be much more complex sturctures to water than the simple polymer chains of various length I already knew must exist (because of the polar nature of the H2O molecule - both hydrogens on one side with 105 degree angule between them.)

    Namely all sorts of loops with no "loose ends" and many other stuctures with an O nestled in between the two hydrogens of two different H2Os units that are part of the main larger structure. (The other hydrogens of these two H2O units keep them part of the main sturcture.) Some of these structures are no doubt quite stable at modest temperatures and consist of "super molecules" of well defined masses and shapes. Possibly with 20 or more times the weight of H2O.

    As some biological effects are more shape than composition dependent It does seem possible to me that some agent added to water and then vigorously shaken (or heated* or exposed to strong sound waves) may be able to change the population distribution of various stable "super molecules" Examples of shape (inspite of very different chemisty) roles are artificial sweeteners, varoius psychological drugs that have the shape of natural neurotransmitters and thus occupy the shape specific sites on the cell wall of nerves etc.

    Thus my view of homepathic medicine is shifting - I.e. it may not be entirely the nonsense I HAVE LONG BELIEVED IT TO BE. Certainly some aspects may be as Asguard is pointing out with his lack of IRON example. Iron is a single atom essential to the structure of hemeglobin (I think) and not a shape that can be constructed from some other complex of water molecules.

    I did a search on "Chaplin Water Structure" and found several references one of which seemed to be telling that Chaplin was a silly old fool who did not understand things. Unfortunately I could not down load it or most of the others, but will later.
    --------------
    *Also it is true that the formation rate of various super molecules of H2O can be dramatically changed selectively by the presence of other molecules - this is how catalist work, why the orientation of a crystal surface serving as a substrated for vapor deposited film can control the sturcture of the film that grows on it etc.

    If one want to take the "Homepathic POV", one could argue that many threputic teas are effective not because of the tea's chemical effects but because the tea molecules have greatly changed the distirbution of stable shapes of supper water molecules present in the liquid called water.

    I think It highly probably that the "succussion" or shaking approach to modification of the distribution of "super molecules" is extremely crude compared to what could be achieved with very high frequency sound. For example, the sound wave lenghts that resonate with some super molecule structures will destroy them and yet not be damaging to others that are stable. Thus, one could think of "scientific homoepathy" where warm water is cooled down while in a carefully chosen spectrum of ultra sound (notches in the sound spectrum where the "desirable" sturcture of super molecules resonate.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2008
  12. Dr. Nancy Malik Medical Doctor Registered Senior Member

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    It's not just water now. It's carrying the imprints of medicine.
     
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Note from a moderator (but not the moderator of this board):

    This is a place of science. The Rule of Laplace is decisive: Extraordinary assertions must be accompanied by extraordinary evidence, in order to be treated with respect.

    Please provide same. Claims are not enough, nor is the dismissal of the entire body of modern scientific medicine by the clever term "allopathy."
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think Malik is trying to be clever, its standard to define medicine systems as allopathy, unani, homeopathy and ayurveda in India, its not meant to be offensive.
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    so that would be a no then?
     
  16. Dr. Nancy Malik Medical Doctor Registered Senior Member

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    Dear Moderator

    In India the popular term is allopathy. everyone uses this term including physicians of conventional system themselves. No one says here that he is going to see a modern doctor or a conventional doctor. They say they have resorted to allopathy.

    And it's true even. Allo means opposite. The effect/nature of allopathic medicine is opposite i.e to supress the symptoms in most of the cases where as homeo means same, and the medicine nature is similar to nature of disease.
     
  17. Reiku Banned Banned

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    This is an interesting thread.
     
  18. kmguru Staff Member

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    Wiki defines Allopathy as:

    Allopathic medicine and allopathy (from Greek ἄλλος, állos, other, different + πάϑος, páthos, suffering) are terms coined by Samuel Hahnemann, the founder of homeopathy. Originally intended as a characterization of standard medicine in the early 19th century, these terms were rejected by mainstream physicians and quickly acquired negative overtones. In the United States the term "allopathic" has been used in contexts not related to homeopathy,[1] but it has never been accepted by the medical establishment, and is not a label that such individuals apply to themselves.[2][3]

    Even Ayurveda would be considered Allopathy because it is not Homeopathy.
     
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    This is not India. Homeopathic "medicine" is considered crackpottery in the West and the only reason its "remedies" are allowed to be sold is that they cause no direct harm. As a person with a better than average education in science, I have yet to see a scientific description of homeopathy that even makes sense, much less is persuasive.

    This is not to say that homeopathy categorically does not work. Rather it is to say that if it does work we have no clear understanding of why, like chiropractic and acupuncture.

    On the other hand we are very familiar with the power of the placebo effect.
     
  20. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    FR im sorry but to put acupuncture in the same catigory as homopathics is insulting and wrong

    Acupuncture has serious peer reviewed studies backing up its efficasy even if the actual understanding may not be there. Hell even CPR is the same, there is a HUGE amount of debate as to HOW it works, is it interthorasic pressure or is it direct pumping of the heart? but the fact that it DOES help is well documented.

    Chiropractics on the other hand im not so sure about, it does cause some imidiate relife but i have never herd of anyone being CURED by it. That being said i do have some bias from my sister on that score, she is a physio and all physio's HATE chiropracters
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe that is true in the United States, but doctors define themselves as homeopaths or allopaths or ayurvedas where these systems all exist together.
     
  22. John99 Banned Banned

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    or wichdoctors or full of shit.
     
  23. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know about chiropracters curing diseases, but I have certainly walked into chiropracters offices with intense pain and left in vastly less pain. I have walked with limited range of motion in this or that portion of my body and left with greater range of motion. I think these are the reasons most people go to chiropracters and many of the ones I speak to have these same experiences. A regular doctor, unless there is some underlying disease, really has two options - pain killers/anti-imflammatories and surgery. The former attack the symptoms and the latter is expensive and invasive. So for me the chiropracter offers a very cheap alternative - one that includes, often much more responsibility on my part to do stretches or other 'homework' and to notice the ways stress, for example, or bad habits in sports or motion in general, other examples, are tending me back toward the problem and to nip it in the bud.
     

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