Supernatural?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by mathman, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, this is not true.

    The phenomenon of ghosts is a supernatural phenomenon. So is God. So are angels. So is astral projection.

    Note: we are not judging whether or not these things really exist ( as opposed to any of a dozen mundane explanations) - we are simply categorizing them.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Ostensibly, yes. But if they can truly be seen and heard they can be recorded - and that keeps not happening. (MR claims to the contrary.) The simple conclusion is that can not be seen and heard - but can certainly be imagined. And with the very, very strong evidence for the pervasiveness of apophenia (both visual and auditory) Occam's Razor applies.
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. The question of whether they exist or not can be considered independently of their supernaturality. Sprites, faeries and flying dragons are also supernatural, whether or not they exist in reality.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Definitely.

    But the moment you can really see them - record them with cameras, measure their energy output, graph their location and speed, determine their transparency, get populations and whatnot - they move from the realm of the supernatural to the natural (if poorly understood.)
     
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Fair enough, categorised supernatural stuff under what ever labels you wish

    But the stuff you record on instruments (baring defective instrument or operator etc) is objective hence
    • natural
    • open to be examined
    • open to being explained
    • open to NOT being able to be explained
    • if the previous filed under UNKNOWN
    Like unexplained UFOs do not default to spacecraft (or anything else). Just remain unexplained

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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But then are we categorizing them properly?
    Are any of the above actually observable or are they hallucinatory which makes them "imaginary phenomena" and not subject to scientific investigation except by neurologists and psychologists?
     
  10. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    I have a problem with that word. It seems to invoke special meaning to the mundane: Super-Natural.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    What it does is that it distinguishes the mundane from that which is considered to be beyond the restrictions of the merely natural. "Super" means above or beyond. Any person or thing that can break (or make) natural law is, by definition, supernatural.
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    A "miracle" is not a mundane phenomenon. It is either an imaginary phenomenon or a supernatural phenomenon.
    By definition a miracle cannot be a natural phenomenon.
    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/miracle
     
  13. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Nature in itself is a miracle, is it not?
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Not with the technical definition of miracle, no.

    Sure, you can label anything you want as a miracle if you really really like that thing and choose to use the term miracle to define anything that fascinates you and brings you joy.

    But nature is, by definition, not a miracle, since
    a] it is about as well understood in scientific terms as anything, and
    b] mundane, since it is, in every sense of the term, everywhere.
     
  15. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    miracle,
    a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

    So, by definition, nothing classified by natural and scientific laws can be attributed to divine agency?
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    The supernatural and paranormal are unscientific concepts.
    If something can be explained by natural laws and/or events, why would you need to invoke any supernatural entity?
    We can reasonably explain the evolution of the universe back to t+10-43 seconds...we can explain how and why stars ignite and/or are born...
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Naahh..., the earth with it's combined chemical richness and long time frames has already performed some 2 trillion, quadrillion, quadrillion, quadrillion evolutionary chemical interactions during its relativly short universal life span.

    According to Robert Hazen it was almost invitable that life appear at some point, as it almost certainly has evolved on other similar planets throughout the universe. Other earthlike planets may be rare, but they are by no means especially unique.

    The same chemistry is pretty well distributed throughout the entire universe. And the numbers of stars with planets is practically incalculable. It is counted in astronomical numbers.

    What is remarkable, is that life on earth has been so incredibly abundant in numbers and variety, but we are apparently situated in a "cinderella zone" which makes it easy for living things to evolve rapidly.

    As Hazen declares, the combined dynamic potentials of Earth made it "necessary" for life to evolve.

    Our current Coronavirus crisis is witness to the ability of even the simplest proto-lifeforms to mutate. How many previous strains of the Coronavirus have been known to exist?
    There is plenty evidence of a healthy evolutionary process of flora and fauna on earth at all levels of complexity.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This may show how normal it is for life to emerge via abiogenetic processes.

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    http://www.cupertino.org/Home/ShowDocument?id=3655


    The thing to remember is that chemistry adheres to strict mathematical formulas, which basically removes the often cited concept of "chance". Mathematics do not behave according to chance, but in accordance to exponetial growth of chemical interactions and the self-formation of ever greater complexity. No Supernatural interference is required, just mathematical permissions and restrictions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
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  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    miracle (n.)
    1. Any amazing or wonderful occurrence
    2. A marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent

    If it's a natural occurrence, then it is not the supernatural act of a divine agent, ergo not a miracle.
     
  20. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    That's a matter of perspective, is it not? Are you satisfied giving Merriam Webster that much authority?
     
  21. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps you should consult Merriam Webster for the definition of Dictionary.
    Being from Holland, I certainly give Merriam Webster much more authority than the Bible....

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    Acorn (fruit of the Oaktree)

    Egg or Chicken?

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    Omelette?
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    No.

    If you want to believe that all natural occurrences are down to the supernatural intervention of God, that's your prerogative, but it means that - for you - the distinction between natural and supernatural is meaningless. You will find that most people make the distinction, even if you do not.

    Dictionaries record the ways in which people use words. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.
     

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