spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
Then yes, changes in the frequency of alleles in a population is evolution.
Race is Real?
- Thread starter Bowser
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It is not arbitrary. Biological evolution has a very nonarbitrary definition. Aging is not evolution.
I do not know what that is suppose to mean. Genetica is a scientific journal. I do not understand what "changes genetica have to take place" means.
Do you mean genetic changes have to take place - because that would not be correct. Evolution is where genetic changes are passed on to the next generation.
Incorrect, evolution does not take millions of years. It takes a long time for big observable changes to take place but evolution happens from generation to generation.
So what are you arguing aBOUT , I give you the example of six fingers passing three generation and that is no evolution . Stop been a yes man and think for yourself .
Seriously? I guess I need to say it yet again, aging is not evolution. Do you understand that?
At no point did I engage you about your silly six fingered discussion, nor do I care to.
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
You are wrong, it is an example of evolution. And if having extra fingers was a clear benefit, then six fingered people would eventually replace five fingered people. There are some locations where certain human genetic mutations do become more common. Especially on islands.
Somebody's been watching too many episodes of the Outer Limits.
Working in a remote Welsh mining town, a rogue scientist, Professor Mathers (Edward Mulhare), discovers a process that affects the speed of evolutionary mutation. Mathers suffers guilt for his role in developing a super-destructive atomic bomb, and hopes his new discovery will better the human race. A disgruntled miner, Gwyllm Griffiths (David McCallum), volunteers for the experiment, enabling the professor to create a being with enhanced mental capabilities. As a man sent forward equal to 20,000 years of evolution, Gwyllm soon begins growing an overdeveloped cortex and a sixth finger on each hand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sixth_Finger#Plot
For your information there is a family in Brazil they showed on one of their program that is going through the effect.
Bells
Staff member
They aren't going through "the effect". They suffer from a genetic condition known as polydactyly.
You can call it anything you want but the teenager said it helps by playing as a goalkeeper. a friend of mine daughter was born with six finger , as a baby they removed the sixth finger but I would not be surprised if the next generation will not come up with six.
Surgery does not affect genetics. The odds of having a sixth finger in the next generation is not changed by removing or keeping the finger. (Or tail, or whatever other non-life-threatening congenital abnormality someone is born with.)
Well, it's an example of HALF of evolution - mutation. Natural selection is the other half. So if, as you say, there were a clear benefit to having six fingers and thus that genotype came to dominate - THAT would be an example of evolution.
I know surgery does not affects genetics. but I believe the six fingers once they are genetically in place they will repeat themselves in the future generation.
Depends on why they are there. 85% of polydactyly cases are not genetic i.e. it's not due to genetics, but due to problems during development. However, in the remaining 15% of cases you are correct - those genes will be passed on and MIGHT appear in the next generation (since not all genes are passed on from one parent to offspring.)
When you say "problem during development " that is a mouthful of possibility at what stage , during blastulation ? after the cord is formed ? and so on.
But what happen if from male six finger and female six finger exchange their genoma , do we know ?
Pretty early on; well before limb formation (at least in mouse experiments; they don't generally run such experiments on humans.)
IF both parents have similar mutations, the odds of them passing it along go way up.
The future of cosmetic or beneficial changes to the human anatomy are not likely going to depend on the traditional mode of natural selection, they are much more likely to be the intentional work of genetic engineers, like the friendly neighborhood mad scientist featured in the Outer Limits episode.
As to the benefits of an extra digit to our hands, our present cultural trends don’t seem to point in that direction. Natural selection settled on five human fingers because it has suited our manipulative needs thus far. With our ever increasing dependence on technological manipulation there is an ever decreasing need to use whatever ever set of digit we posses. Neural machine interface devices, whether synthetic implants or genetically native will be the way our descendants get a better grip on things in the future.
I'd say it goes back a lot farther than that. Most mammals have either five phalanges or have the remnants of five phalanges; even whales still have the bones for five "fingers" within their flukes, and even horses (which fuse several phalanges into one) have five digits in the womb. You have to go all the way to birds before you find a significant change in the number of digits.
What has likely happened is that we got five fingers more or less as an accident a long, long time ago - and they have worked well enough. Not perfectly - but it has never been so bad that mammals have had to go through the period of maladaptiveness required to change that.
Bells
Staff member
Have you seen images of some who are born with extra digits? The family in Brazil are lucky that their extra digit is usable and functional. Most others are not so lucky.
With the family in Brazil, their condition is due to a genetic disorder. And so far, has not proven to be too problematic. They are seen as being an oddity and it has bought them fame when it comes to sports (crossing fingers for luck and whatnot). For the majority of cases, however, it brings pain and immobility. Such as the baby in China:
The mother also suffers from the condition and her baby was born with 15 fingers and 16 toes. Do you see any evolutionary benefit to this?
The mother has 12 fingers and 12 toes. Her condition is not as severe as her son's. Her son's mobility is affected and the surgery to correct it is going to be exceptionally difficult.
People with the condition have to take extra care, due to an increased risk of injury. This baby's development is affected, because learning to walk, which for humans is a valuable and evolutionary necessity for survival, is deeply affected. Some cannot walk due to the condition. Some barely have use of their hands.
The same condition that affected the family in Brazil, has affected the baby pictured above. And you think this may have an evolutionary benefit? It does not. Just because the family in Brazil have been able to capitalise on it financially, does not mean it has an evolutionary benefit.
There is no real reason for us to have 6 digits on each appendage. If it was or if it was important or valid for mammals to have 6 digits, then this is something that would have already happened. Mammals managed well without it and continue to do so.
There is no real or actual benefit to it.
To be more specific, the benefit does not exceed the problems one would incur evolving the additional digits.