you made the statement that yours was the rational outlook I asked whether one can be rational divorced from value. You said possibly, if one is careful. I asked whether one can be careful without value (since, if it proves impossible to be careful without value, being rational would be underpinned by value to the degree that one exercises care). Do you follow? hence in all times, places and circumstances, rationality is applied after we apply value I'm just pointing out that you are trying to cut rank with your assertion of the rational assumption. Its not rationality that is speaking, but your values.